Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles

[Steve Petersen]

I don't know how someone could read Psalm 119 and come to the conclusion that the Torah is bad.

 

[TertiusC]

Dear Visionary,

From our conversation I believe you are a Gentile Messianic believer. The reason why I say this is because I have seldom met a Jewish believer who is so doctrinally caught up in Torah observance. It is usually the Gentile believers who are so enamoured at what most MJs usually consider to be obsessive.

What is the problem with this?

 

[visionary]

Dear Visionary,

From our conversation I believe you are a Gentile Messianic believer. The reason why I say this is because I have seldom met a Jewish believer who is so doctrinally caught up in Torah observance. It is usually the Gentile believers who are so enamoured at what most MJs usually consider to be obsessive. <snip>.. .[/COLOR]

God's said it would provoke the Jewish believers to jealousy because of our zealous. God is honored to have such zealousness for His Name sake.May all nations come to bow before Him..

 

[meslit]

Hello,

For some reason, my last thread had deleted an article written by Dr Alan Polyner-Levison of Beit Shalom Ministries in the UK. UK MJs appear to be stronger in grace teachings than many MJs in the US. See the article below:

The Messianic Movement
and its Perpetual Identity Crisis​

Dr. Alan Poyner-Levison​

Since the Messianic Movement became buoyant in the foremost thinking of Jewish believers' lives, it has gone in many directions both doctrinally as well as positionally. What were at one time known as Hebrew Christians are now calling themselves Messianic Jews? This is because at that time Hebrew Christians were exactly that: Jewish Believers in Jesus or Christian Jews. However, we have lately seen the emergence of a sub group that has grown out of this sound messianic position, and have become named the Jewish Roots Movement. These are in the main Gentiles that have become aware of the Jewish roots of their faith, and working on the premise of Romans 11:17 that they were grafted into the Jewish root, they have adopted in some cases virtually the whole Rabbinic order of worship which is what they understand as being Jewish. They will argue that they are part of the one new man that Scripture speaks of in Ephesians 2:15, which makes them Jewish, so they should be partakers of all aspects of Jewish life. Now if this is not alarming enough, a third culture has also developed which calls itself the Two House Ephraimite Movement which teaches that the Gentile believers in Yeshua are the physical descendants of the ten lost tribes of the Kingdom of Israel which is also known as Ephraim; hence the title Ephraimite.

Now I ask you, where are we going as a movement? If we desire to be biblical we must comply with Paul&#8217;s request in 1 Corinthian 4:6, Do not go beyond that which is written, and Titus 1:9, Encourage others by sound doctrine, and refute those who oppose it, and 1 Corinthian&#8217;s 11:2, Keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

 

[meslit]

Also, Dr David Brown of AMF International wrote an article on Gentiles and Torah (see below)

A: The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are part of God's covenant with the nation of Israel and have never applied to the world at large. Even rabbinic Judaism does not expect or even desire for non-Jews to keep all of these commandments. In rabbinic Judaism, a non-Jew is a "Righteous Gentile" if he keeps what are called the Seven Noachide Commandments, based on Genesis 9:1-17

1. Practice civil justice
2. Do not blaspheme
3. Do not practice idolatry
4. Do not commit incest (sometimes read to mean any sexual sin)
5. Do not commit murder
6. Do not steal
7. Do not eat flesh cut from a living animal. (sometimes read as prohibition against cruelty in general)


​

More importantly, the New Testament teaches in Galatians 3:23-25 and elsewhere that the Church is not under the Torah (or "Law," meaning the five books of Moses). In Acts 15 the issue arose in the early church as to whether Gentile believers should undergo conversion to Judaism. The decision of the apostles was that this was not necessary. They asked only four things of them:

1. Abstain from eating meat sacrificed to idols
2. Abstain from blood
3. Abstain from meat of strangled animals
4. Abstain from sexual immorality

(Acts 15:28-29)

​

This does not mean, of course, that incest, murder and thievery are acceptable forms of behavior, but these values are more or less universal, and were certainly familiar to the Greek converts. These things are mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament.(1 Corinthians 6:10, for example, or Galatians 5:19))

Notice that there is nothing in either of these lists about keeping the Sabbath or any Holy Day, or about avoiding certain kinds of meat or other food, or how to prepare a grain offering, or pay a bride price or stone a sorceress or any number of laws given to the wandering Israelites. In Galatians 4:8-11, Paul specifically chastises the Galatians for observing special days and seasons.
Paul saw the Law as a "pedagogue," using the Greek word for a slave whose job it was to usher his master's child safely to school. According to Galatians 3:24, the job of the law was to usher us to "Christ" (the Messiah). Once the "pedagogue" has delivered the child, he lets go -- otherwise his job is not done! By the same token, once we have come to Messiah, we must "let go" of the law, because otherwise it will hold us back. (Galatians 4:9) (How can a child go to school if he refuses to get off the bus?)

Of course there are good principles in the law which can still be applied ("Thou shalt not steal" for example is still a very good idea), but there a many, many rules which would only be a burden to us now. To use the bus driver analogy again, there may be some things the bus driver told you as a child that are still useful today. It's still a good idea to look both ways before crossing the street, and not to get out of a vehicle until it has come to a complete stop. But if you refuse to chew gum because a bus driver forbade it twenty years ago, that's just silly. You are no longer under that authority.
If you find an idea in Old Testament law that helps you become the kind of person that exudes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22), then that's wonderful. Do that as long as it helps. But let it go as soon as you see that Keeping the Rule has become more important to you than these things. Paul said no law can match up to these things. (Galatians 5:23)


David Brown
AMF International

 

[TertiusC]

It's horrible how David Brown is mistaken in his reading of other's interpretation of the Word. It saddens me deeply to see.

We are all commanded to obey Torah. Messiah did not come to end Torah observance.

All disciples of Messiah need to walk as He walked, (obligatory quote of Romans 11) etc.

We all know about the 7 rules of righteousness.

Him saying that "We are no longer under Torah". What a gross misunderstanding of that text and what the word "under" actually means there. It doesn't mean that we should no longer obey Torah!!

Yes Paul did chastise the Galations for keeping special days and feasts. Special PAGAN feasts!!

I am saddened by Dr. David's lack of understanding and past that his ushering us off of the bus of obeying our YHWH!

 

[meslit]

How many authoritative Christian and MJ teachers would you like to hear from telling you the same thing? There's an old Chinese saying stating "If a man calls you an ass, call him a fool. If ten men prove you are an ass, buy a saddle!"

 

[TertiusC]

Look, we can pass teachers to each other all day long. I have a bunch too.

If you want to listen to someone who says that we shouldn't observe Shabbat based on Galations "special days and seasons" that's your choice. I suggest you read Galations, realise who it was written to and then decide for yourself if you want to so easily eat what he puts on the table.

I don't mind questioning things, I don't mind debate. But when blatant ignorance of the truth is accepted, what can I do?

For me, that is the first and easy point to disprove. I can continue if you'd like, if you're open to it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I would venture to guess that a majority of Gentiles in the Messianic Movement come from Charismatic Protestant denominations.

Would you be one of them meslit?

 

[meslit]

Look, we can pass teachers to each other all day long. I have a bunch too.

If you want to listen to someone who says that we shouldn't observe Shabbat based on Galations "special days and seasons" that's your choice. I suggest you read Galations, realise who it was written to and then decide for yourself if you want to so easily eat what he puts on the table.

I don't mind questioning things, I don't mind debate. But when blatant ignorance of the truth is accepted, what can I do?

For me, that is the first and easy point to disprove. I can continue if you'd like, if you're open to it.

TertisuC:

OK, then bible verses written by eminent Christians is not sufficient. Here then is my personal take on the MJM and MGM. Having been an MJ since the 70s I have a few opinions of the Gentile Messianic movement. It was originally promoted by MJ rabbis that wanted to increase the attendance in their congregations, thereby increasing their titles. Once Messianic gentiles became a norm in the MJ movement the Pandora's box of error was opened an couldn't be shut. Messianic gentile congregations sprang up everywhere, with little opposition, much like the sabatarian (7th Day Adventist) did in the past. So now, MJs denounce the largely gentile movement even though they created it. Most Jewish beleivers, including myself find it hard to worship with Torah observant gentile believers since they are so obsessive in their ways. My MJ daughter won't worship at the local MJ cong because she thinks they are strange. So what truly is the answer? I worshipped with gentile believers in a non-Torah observance MJ congreation for years. We all were who we were. There was no identity crisis and no pretense of being someone who we were not. That's basically what some of the "One New Man" theology churches are offering today. If you really want to evangelize Jews, get out of the whole gentile Messianic thing and join a Jewish evangelizing church or "One New Man" ministry that offers a sane alternative to MJ worship. The gentile Messianic movement is completely self serving. It does not reach out to unsaved Jews since any sane unbelieving Jew would not step into such a place. OK, that is my take on the whole Messianic movement.

At this time, I really dont believe there are any Messianic Jews on this thread. Let me know if I am correct or not.

If you have any questions on why I believe what I believe, I would be happy to answer.

 

[visionary]

Also, Dr David Brown of AMF International wrote an article on Gentiles and Torah (see below)

A: The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are part of God's covenant with the nation of Israel and have never applied to the world at large. Even rabbinic Judaism does not expect or even desire for non-Jews to keep all of these commandments. In rabbinic Judaism, a non-Jew is a "Righteous Gentile" if he keeps what are called the Seven Noachide Commandments, based on Genesis 9:1-17

1. Practice civil justice
2. Do not blaspheme
3. Do not practice idolatry
4. Do not commit incest (sometimes read to mean any sexual sin)
5. Do not commit murder
6. Do not steal
7. Do not eat flesh cut from a living animal. (sometimes read as prohibition against cruelty in general)


​

More importantly, the New Testament teaches in Galatians 3:23-25 and elsewhere that the Church is not under the Torah (or "Law," meaning the five books of Moses). In Acts 15 the issue arose in the early church as to whether Gentile believers should undergo conversion to Judaism. The decision of the apostles was that this was not necessary. They asked only four things of them:

1. Abstain from eating meat sacrificed to idols
2. Abstain from blood
3. Abstain from meat of strangled animals
4. Abstain from sexual immorality

(Acts 15:28-29)

​

This does not mean, of course, that incest, murder and thievery are acceptable forms of behavior, but these values are more or less universal, and were certainly familiar to the Greek converts. These things are mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament.(1 Corinthians 6:10, for example, or Galatians 5:19))

Notice that there is nothing in either of these lists about keeping the Sabbath or any Holy Day, or about avoiding certain kinds of meat or other food, or how to prepare a grain offering, or pay a bride price or stone a sorceress or any number of laws given to the wandering Israelites. In Galatians 4:8-11, Paul specifically chastises the Galatians for observing special days and seasons.
Paul saw the Law as a "pedagogue," using the Greek word for a slave whose job it was to usher his master's child safely to school. According to Galatians 3:24, the job of the law was to usher us to "Christ" (the Messiah). Once the "pedagogue" has delivered the child, he lets go -- otherwise his job is not done! By the same token, once we have come to Messiah, we must "let go" of the law, because otherwise it will hold us back. (Galatians 4:9) (How can a child go to school if he refuses to get off the bus?)

Of course there are good principles in the law which can still be applied ("Thou shalt not steal" for example is still a very good idea), but there a many, many rules which would only be a burden to us now. To use the bus driver analogy again, there may be some things the bus driver told you as a child that are still useful today. It's still a good idea to look both ways before crossing the street, and not to get out of a vehicle until it has come to a complete stop. But if you refuse to chew gum because a bus driver forbade it twenty years ago, that's just silly. You are no longer under that authority.
If you find an idea in Old Testament law that helps you become the kind of person that exudes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22), then that's wonderful. Do that as long as it helps. But let it go as soon as you see that Keeping the Rule has become more important to you than these things. Paul said no law can match up to these things. (Galatians 5:23)


David Brown
AMF International

Another noahider.. yeeeeesh...You should really study the noahide agenda and see whether you can find Christ and the grace you speak of.

 

[meslit]

Dear Visionary and friends,

Getting back to my original train of thought, I would like to know from all of you what histrorical interpretation of Paul or Shaul do you subscribe to?

• Is he "Rav Shaul" all accepting of modern Torah observant Messianic thought?

• Is he "Heretic Paul" leading the church into paganism and thwarting Torah observant Messianic beliefs.

• Is he the "Apostle Paul", formerly a leader of the anti-Messianic movement in Israel and the diaspora an now a central force in evangelizing, establishing new churches and teaching the principles of grace to both Jews and Gentiles the church?

 

[visionary]

Dear Visionary and friends,

Getting back to my original train of thought, I would like to know from all of you what histrorical interpretation of Paul or Shaul do you subscribe to?

• Is he "Rav Shaul" all accepting of modern Torah observant Messianic thought?

• Is he "Heretic Paul" leading the church into paganism and thwarting Torah observant Messianic beliefs.

• Is he the "Apostle Paul", formerly a leader of the anti-Messianic movement in Israel and the diaspora an now a central force in evangelizing, establishing new churches and teaching the principles of grace to both Jews and Gentiles the church?

One and three..the balance between...

 

[meslit]

One and three..the balance between...

You chose Rav Shaul and the Apostle Paul.

I asked you that because most Messianic believers are not aware that the entire Rav Shaul historical scenario was contrived in the late 80s. Given that Rav Shaul's historical scenario was manufactured for a purpose, we need to investigate these reasons.

The statements below are taken from "Having Fun With Torah Observant Doctrine" on the Messianic Litearary Corner:

In the 1980s some Messianic Jewish teachers came up with the idea that they could reshape Messianic believers perception of the "Gospel of Grace" and "Torah Observance" by simply re-inventing the persona of the Apostle Paul into the "Torah Observant "Rabbi Shaul", all accepting of modern Messianic Jewish thought. In doing so, they had to develop an approach that would disregard the accurate history of Paul in his evolution from "Saul of Tarsus" persecutor of the Church in Israel and the Diaspora, to "the Apostle Paul", church founder, teacher and evangelist to both Jew and Gentile alike. They would have to sell to their flock the idea that Paul remained Torah observant, even while ministering to the Gentiles in the Greco/Roman provinces of Asia Minor. They also had to assert that the proselytes of Rabbi Shaul were Torah observant. The task of selling this "spin" was simple for most of the devoted believers within the Messianic Jewish movement, but much less so for those educated in Church history and New Covenant teachings. Was this error one of confusion or design on the part of some Messianic leaders? I am sure we will know one day.

There are erroneous motivations underlying Torah Observant Messianic Jewish believer's acceptance of either the "Rav Shaul" or "Heretic Paul" historical scenarios. If you read between the lines in some of their statements, you will find that Torah Observant Messianic believers who know their history only give "lip service" supporting "Rav Shaul", and are actually Anti-Paul and consider his teachings heretical.

In the USA, most Anti-Pauline Messianic Jewish believers hide behind the "Rav Shaul' history nonsense. In Israel though, most Anti-Paul MJs do not hide their sentiments concerning their opposition to Pauline doctrine. Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. There is a good reason why Israeli MJs mostly hold to the Heretic Paul historical scenario. It is so because they know the true history of Paul and have no reason to hide behind such a historical fabrication. The Rav Shaul lie was constructed to successfully introduce Anti-Pauline doctrine into mostly the US church and MJ congregations.

The Israeli and supportive Anti-Paul teachers truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people. This concept adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of self deception which comes right out of David Stern's book, "Messianic Jewish Manifesto". Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

So today, Gentile Messianic believers have swallowed the same bait that the earlier MJs did. They now have accepted Anti-Pauline doctrine without a fight by simply believing in a distorted historical portrait of Paul.

 

[Desert Rose]

meslit, i agree with a lot of points you brought up, but i lost you somewhere in the process.elaborate, please :

So you are advocating the emphasis on grace, love , humbleness, striving to be christlike,(to use our, notzrim's terminology ) loving the least of our brethren, patience, kindness and fruits of the Spirit. I am all for it. And i agree that one can concentrate of outward observances and various bells and whistles of religion and miss on what truly matters.
Less religion, more faith. Amen.

But. No faith exist in a vacuum. We all practice one of the other forms of religion. If messianics like observing sabbath and catholic observes Lent, and all the while not forgetting the mercy, and love, and yeshua's message of what we should strive to become - why is that bad? Why total lawlessness is good? Sometimes rules and regulations add structure and aid in producing Fruit. I see a problem with laws and attempts to observe Torah only if it is an impendiment to knowing Him. But not all overdo on that.... There are some messianics that are better christians then some christians are , if you catch my drift

 

[meslit]

Dear Visionary and friends,

The original plan set forth by Anti-Pauline heretical teachers to change the perception of Grace and Torah Observance in the US Messianic Movement has worked Yet the signs of deceit are still apparent in how Torah observant MJ teachers will vacillate from a Rav Shaul historical position to abandoning it totally to show their Anti-Paul sentiments when an arguement heats up.

Those who are knowledgable know that I am correct in my estimation of their true theological position.

The result of the continuation of obligatory Torah observance in the MJM will be the eventual demise of the MJM and evangelism of Jews in the world , with nothing but a cultish Gentile following of Messianic worshipers left.

The Spirit is poised for a great movement in Israel and abroad. I guarantee you that it will not be through the efforts of Torah observant MJs and MGs. It will be through the evangelism , preaching and teaching of Spirit filled Grace teaching Jewish and Gentile believers. They will not abandon Torah, but rather will submit Torah observance to NC priciples.

False doctine can either be dealt with by the Body or by the Lord's judgement. I wish for it not to be the later.

 

[visionary]

submit Torah observance to NC principles

Could you define or give examples of how this [submit Torah observance to NC priciples] is done... Clarification helps..

 

[meslit]

Dear Visionary,

There has been a strong Anti-Paul sentiment in the Messianic Jewish movement that goes back to the origins of the MJM in the late 60s and early 70s. In the US though any anti-Pauline doctrine would be met with fierce resistance by Christian supporters of the Messianic Jewish movement. David Stern and other Reformed MJ thinkers used the same deception used in other social movements (socialism, communism, etc) to introduce anti-Pauline doctrine disguised within a distorted historical portrait of Paul. Thus, all they had to do was sell Rav Shaul to MJs and supportive Christians to get the results they were looking for, that is legitimizing obligatory Torah observance within the MJM. If you are looking for links that refer to Anti-Paul, Heretic-Paul statements from MJs, I would be happy to post them on my message board. I will need a day or two to post them.

The Messianic Gentile movement was a bi-product of this heresy. What needs to be done now is to draw attention to the original intent of these teachers so a more accurate portrait of Paul can be disseminated within these movements. Given that practically all grace teachings after the crucifixion of Yeshua were written by the Apostle Paul, the importance of representing Paul in an accurate historical and doctrinal light is of the utmost importance to resist the corruption that is so widely accepted.

As stated in my article "Having Fun With Torah Observant Messianic Doctrine":

Most Messianic Jews that support the Rav Shaul or Heretic Paul historical scenario, do so for the sake of what they perceive to be a necessity. They truly believe that only by holding to an erroneous viewpoint that supports obligatory Torah Observance will they successfully evangelize the Jewish people. This concept adopts a "Social Darwinist" form of self deception which comes right out of David Stern's book, "Messianic Jewish Manifesto". Social Darwinists justify promoting the "big lie" if it serves to promote the continuity of their social cause. It may have been a 'Freudian slip" when Stern used the term "manifesto" in his revolutionary book. Stern's use of Marx missed the Biblical mark!

 

[TertiusC]

TertisuC:

OK, then bible verses written by eminent Christians is not sufficient.

Bible "verses" written by eminent Christians? What do you mean by that? I was talking about David Brown.

 

[visionary]

Thus, all they had to do was sell Rav Shaul to MJs and supportive Christians to get the results they were looking for, that is legitimizing obligatory Torah observance within the MJM.

legitimizing obligatory Torah observance within the MJM.

Are you saying then that God has not legitimised obligatory Torah Observance amongst His believers?