Why do Messianic Jewish congregations want...?

[Frogster]

The question you asked.




Looking at my response more thoroughly below, I see it only deals with "what" I wanted to post.



The reason why I posted it is because I believe it would add to the topic, in the sense of being helpful towards the discussion. To further expand the issues that surround the basic question, "Why do Messianic Jewish congregations want...?"

Such concepts as the truth, primacy and the oracles even the law are necessary to keep in mind when discussing matters with a Jew who confesses belief in Jesus Christ concerning the resurrection of the dead.

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets." (Act 24:14)

From what I understand of MJ, what they want is to explain how to believe all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets according to the Way. Which is rather different from the concensus within Christianity in its' present form. Inevitably people pick sides.

Now why did I post all that additional? For much the same reasons as before.

Good morning Norbert.

See..I understand what your saying. But the Torah observant messianics are just Moses..for the most part. Paul used and preached out of the "law and the prophets", and taught about justification by faith. And again, we have Romans 4 about Abraham and David. Granted Abe was Torah, but Paul used it to show grace, but all we ever hear about is Moses from said groups.

The just shall live by faith.Hab 2:4

So yes, Paul did live according to the whole of his scripture, but in that very scripture, the promise was too. To which later Paul walked in. There is no way he would call the law the power of sin, and then preach it.

The prophets knew.

1 Peter 1:10-11 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

 

[bugkiller]

The question you asked.




Looking at my response more thoroughly below, I see it only deals with "what" I wanted to post.



The reason why I posted it is because I believe it would add to the topic, in the sense of being helpful towards the discussion. To further expand the issues that surround the basic question, "Why do Messianic Jewish congregations want...?"

Such concepts as the truth, primacy and the oracles even the law are necessary to keep in mind when discussing matters with a Jew who confesses belief in Jesus Christ concerning the resurrection of the dead.

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets." (Act 24:14)

From what I understand of MJ, what they want is to explain how to believe all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets according to the Way. Which is rather different from the concensus within Christianity in its' present form. Inevitably people pick sides.

Now why did I post all that additional? For much the same reasons as before.

Nice post. Focus is wonderful and sometimes to limited as in can't see the forrest for the trees. My question really is not why do you post in this thread. My question does show a nusiance of our current English usage. We tend to make statements that are incomplete based on understand of the unsaid.

So my real question is what or why do you participate in these forums. Is the real drawing card that one can add value to a discussion or is there in reality something deeper? I participate because I have a love for the truth and detest false doctrine. I think anyone who participates adds value to the discussion. There would be no discussion without participants. I know that some are here because they have no other social outlet. I know that some are here to learn. I know that some are here to make converts to their church. I know some are here seeking validation. I am sure that I have not named all the reasons folks are here.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Where did Paul ever rebuke a believing Jew for keeping the Law?

That is a good question. Where did Paul commend anyone for keeping the law?

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

That is a good question. Where did Paul commend anyone for keeping the law?

bugkiller

lol! you are more sharp than me in the morning..I thought linear.

 

[bugkiller]

I am unable to do that, I am not Jewish.


Steve

p.s. sound exegesis counts for nothing. What I call sound exegesis you call false teaching, and what you call sound exegesis I call lutheran theology. We simply do not speak the same language.

I don't think that MJs as a movement are Jewish. I think as someone pointed out that they are largely gentiles pretending to be Jewish. And I agree. They have a great worship style to.

BTW Frogster did not ask about Jews. He asked about MJs.

bugkiller

 

[Norbert L]

Good morning Norbert.

Good morning Frogster,

You know from our previous exchanges that I line up more with an MJ understanding than mainstream Christianity, both of which confess and believe. I don't have any real want to push anything I've learned down anyone's throat, but if I can provide an interesting angle on something that is said, you will hear from me and I will try and explain it as best I can. ATM nothing comes to mind in response other than thankyou for the warm greeting.

Norbert

So my real question is what or why do you participate in these forums. Is the real drawing card that one can add value to a discussion or is there in reality something deeper?

bugkiller

The drawing card is to try and be helpful, that is a trait that has been given me even at work and from birth. I behave in consideration of others rather than getting things done "my way or the highway", sometimes I fall short. However there is something greater that draws me. I learn new truth (that is new to me, not that it hasn't been there all along) by having my belief in Jesus Christ challenged. To see the bigger picture, to have the mirror come in focus a little more clearly, mostly in the form of attaching one concept to another.

There is some profit here on CF to seek after, to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Frogster]

Good morning Frogster,

You know from our previous exchanges that I line up more with an MJ understanding than mainstream Christianity, both of which confess and believe. I don't have any real want to push anything I've learned down anyone's throat, but if I can provide an interesting angle on something that is said, you will hear from me and I will try and explain it as best I can. ATM nothing comes to mind in response other than thankyou for the warm greeting.

Norbert



The drawing card is to try and be helpful, that is a trait that has been given me even at work and from birth. I behave in consideration of others rather than getting things done "my way or the highway", sometimes I fall short. However there is something greater that draws me. I learn new truth (that is new to me, not that it hasn't been there all along) by having my belief in Jesus Christ challenged. To see the bigger picture, to have the mirror come in focus a little more clearly, mostly in the form of attaching one concept to another.

There is some profit here on CF to seek after.

Anytime friend. Here is how I see it.

Many want unity, which is great. But just like in Paul's day they were compelling..that means forceful on the gentiles to conform to Moses. Not to be dramatic, but that sounds like being spiritually predatory. (forgive the strong language,just proving a point)So when Jewish MJ's or even gentile MJ's try to compel, like they did in Galatians, we can't under the banner of unity, tolerate the aggresive action of spiritual subjugation. Guilt and shoulds can be a strong motivator. Again strong language is used to hear to emphasis a point. No, i don't think they should go all the way with the knife, Gal 5:12. (joke) Once they start with the "shoulds"..then comes the rest.

Again..look at Pauls vehement tone in Galatians, which he knew he displayed.

So in one breath we are asked for unity, while we watch gentiles get sucked into bondage, that is not what Christ died for. Law seperates from the true grace of God.

Just like on TV the other night, on the "Jewish Jesus" tv show. He said we should keep the feasts inorder to be spirtially alert...

See what I mean?

Where do the "shoulds" lead to?

Why not focus on the new dawn of the Spirit, instead of the shadows?

So then the MJ instead of enjoying the glories of grace, now take on a law menatlity, hence loosing out on the most prized possesion.

The conscience is fragile.

God bless..Frogster.

 

[cyberlizard]

I don't think that MJs as a movement are Jewish. I think as someone pointed out that they are largely gentiles pretending to be Jewish. And I agree. They have a great worship style to.

BTW Frogster did not ask about Jews. He asked about MJs.

bugkiller

in the MJ abbreviation, what does the J stand for. I am sure I am a gentile and technically, the MJ is not a monolithic structure and consists of everything from the hebrew christian movement, to the One Law movement, to the Two house belief system, to the Jews4Jesus position (evangelicalism with a Jewish veneer) to the coalition or Torah observant Messianics and a whole host in between.

You simply can't do what had previously been asked. It is like asking an arminian his position on predestination and only accepting his answer if at agrees with a calvinist POV.

MJ from what I have observed is so broad that you cannot really pin it down as their is no central belief system or fixed tenets of belief. Neither do it have a head (like the AoG).



Steve

p.s. please can you explain what you mean by gentiles pretending to be Jewish. I do not get it.

 

[bugkiller]

in the MJ abbreviation, what does the J stand for. I am sure I am a gentile and technically, the MJ is not a monolithic structure and consists of everything from the hebrew christian movement, to the One Law movement, to the Two house belief system, to the Jews4Jesus position (evangelicalism with a Jewish veneer) to the coalition or Torah observant Messianics and a whole host in between.

You simply can't do what had previously been asked. It is like asking an arminian his position on predestination and only accepting his answer if at agrees with a calvinist POV.

Is this not a major problem on this site? It seems self promotion is the only thing going here. I am reminded of a joke that I will dig up just for you. It is not on this puter.

MJ from what I have observed is so broad that you cannot really pin it down as their is no central belief system or fixed tenets of belief. Neither do it have a head (like the AoG).



Steve

p.s. please can you explain what you mean by gentiles pretending to be Jewish. I do not get it.

I did not think you are that dull. I will make a statement to be socialable and that is all.

So I guess one has to to be so broad there is no meaning.

What does the J stand for? You tell me if you think I am that dull. I am not so sure that you are not trying to insult me. I think you identify youself with the MJ movement? Surely you know. Are all members of the groups you mentioned Jewish? I really don't think so. Do you have some statistics to back up who you think the MJ movement is made of?

Remember I did not say who makes up the MJ movement. I did say and I quote: I think as someone pointed out that they are largely gentiles pretending to be Jewish. I said this as a supporting statement for my first sentence in that post.

It is my understanding that the majority of those subscribing to the MJ movement are not Jewish. I say pretending because they are acting as though they are Jews without being circumcised. I did not say that there aren't those that do. I think it is the exception. You identified your self as a gentile. Again if I am not mistaken you also identify yourself as MJ.

They infiltrated a church I attended too and did draw off a few (the piranhas). They did affect the general worship style. Like Latina music they have much more life in their style. And I like that. I, however, can not support or adhere to their general doctrines. Maybe you have noticed. Like you said they are so broad that they are not pinable. Some do leave the MJ for the full Jewish synagogue. So since they are so broad how can you defend the movement or any of the doctrines found in the movement. It is like the opinion of a rabbi. If there are two of them there are 5 opinions. It is nearly impossible to pin one down. There is another group like that participating on these boards. I do not wish to get into trouble.

I asked Norbert why he posts here and will ask you the same. What exactly is your motivation for posting here on a christian site. I am not saying that you are not a christian. I believe the MJ movement as a whole to be cultic and not adherring to standard essential Christian doctrines. Heresy is a requirement of a healthy church (total spectrum of Christianity). Heresy and those who try to tear down Christainty prove that there is substance to Christianity.

I hope you find this thought provking and helpful.

Oh I almost forgot, why do you mention AoG? Did you ever affilate or attend such? Just curious as they are only a part of a gennerally much larger movement catagorized as pentecostal.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Interesting how scripture says that those who were imposing the old cov on the Corinthians were adulterating the word of God. The KJV says deceitfully.

2 Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Forgive me but I do not understand you here.

I was essentially agreeing with you . Though I was adding that the Law isn't for legalism even though that is what it became and for which it is still being used . And , that almost all of christianity ( small "c" for the world-wide religion ) has been about legalism even though Christianity's ( big "c" for actual believers ) foundation was not to be such .

 

[bugkiller]

I was essentially agreeing with you . Though I was adding that the Law isn't for legalism even though that is what it became and for which it is still being used . And , that almost all of christianity ( small "c" for the world-wide religion ) has been about legalism even though Christianity's ( big "c" for actual believers ) foundation was not to be such .

Good post. I do heartily appreaciate your distinction between religion and the relationship of the beleiver with God.

bugkiller

 

[New_Wineskin]

Good post. I do heartily appreaciate your distinction between religion and the relationship of the beleiver with God.

bugkiller

Thank you . In this forum specifically , it is confusing as to what people mean when they refer to Christians and Christianity . Are they discussing believers or all those simply professing to be christians because of routine since they were young ? And , they don't word their posts in such a way as to make it clear .

 

[Frogster]

Mixing law and Grace takes one away from Christ. It was probably the same crowd mentioned in Galatians,the Jerusalem crowd who had a false gospel as per this passage,and Galatians chapter one. Notice how it says "different spirit". Sounds like the "bewitched in Gal 3.

2 Corinthians11:1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.

 

[visionary]

No wonder Yeshua comes into reign with an iron rod..

 

[Frogster]

No wonder Yeshua comes into reign with an iron rod..

I am above the spanking age.

 

[visionary]

I am above the spanking age.

Wait til daddy comes home.

 

[Frogster]

Wait til daddy comes home.

Good one!

 

[bugkiller]

Thank you . In this forum specifically , it is confusing as to what people mean when they refer to Christians and Christianity . Are they discussing believers or all those simply professing to be christians because of routine since they were young ? And , they don't word their posts in such a way as to make it clear .

I think there are those here that have no clue. The Bible is rarely preached anymore. There are many churches, even main line whoare appealing to the seeker - those seeking satisfaction - not God. I think there are those who are intentionally doing as you suggest for the purpose of leading astray. One even admited that is exactly what he was doing to me. There are plenty of people seeking to convert you to their church.

bugkiller

 

[Lulav]

[/color][/b] Paul is not saying that that the law is God. If He was I would agree. Paul is taliking about the law, not Who or What is God or God is.

You must really hate Paul with a passion. The rest of your post seem to be a rail against Paul.

bugkiller

Who is on the L-RD'S side?

16 Six things the Lord hates; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:

1. arrogant eyes,
2. a lying tongue,
3. hands that shed innocent blood,
4. a heart that plots wicked schemes,
5. feet eager to run to evil,
6. a lying witness who gives false testimony,
7. and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.

I am on the L-RDs side, am I not to hate that which he hateth? I think that Paul fulfills just about all of these, in fact I can think of many of his writings right off the top of my head that would fit each of these, and more 'verses' than one for each. If you'd like the book quotes I can give them to you.