Slavery in the OT

[ciaphas]

Truth is, that article is a little too long for me to give a proper read to. I was glad that some sensible answers came up

I hope that beforehim will see that i'm not here just to rock the boat and am more than a bored internet troll. Having been an atheist my entire life I struggle to get into the mindset of some christians. This is me exploring various other world views by challenging them and seeing your answers. I am not coming into these forums expecting to be blown away and to convert, but to see things through other's eyes. There are times when I'll be trying to get people out of certain mindsets, the main situation being when people are mistrustful of science, often without looking into the matter at all.

I ask these questions to see the way in which people go about them. some will have sensible answers, this is great, it means they can logically justify their personal philosophy to themself. Others will blindly follow the teachings without thought or reasoning, I find this disturbing. Often these answers, although not relevant to my philosophy, make me think about my world views which is very helpful.

Again, I apologise if I came across as trying to blindly debase your religion.

 

[david_x]

Most of us in the world are still slaves. We just don't all realise it. We may not have "slave owners" in the traditional perspective, but anyone who owes anyone else money (like credit cards, or a mortgage) makes you become their slave. Why do you go to work every day...to pay someone else a debt you owe them...then essentially you are working for them and are "indebted" (a slave) to them. This is not true for all, but most. Just something to think about. The Federal Reserve in the USA made a lot of people become slaves without even realizing it.

...slaves don't get money to buy Hummers.

 

[david_x]

People please use the "Quote" button at the bottom of each post, this is a horribly confusing thread.

 

[Satt]

...slaves don't get money to buy Hummers.

There's no need to get all sexual here.

 

[beforHim]

I hope that beforehim will see that i'm not here just to rock the boat and am more than a bored internet troll. Having been an atheist my entire life I struggle to get into the mindset of some christians. This is me exploring various other world views by challenging them and seeing your answers. I am not coming into these forums expecting to be blown away and to convert, but to see things through other's eyes. There are times when I'll be trying to get people out of certain mindsets, the main situation being when people are mistrustful of science, often without looking into the matter at all.

I ask these questions to see the way in which people go about them. some will have sensible answers, this is great, it means they can logically justify their personal philosophy to themself. Others will blindly follow the teachings without thought or reasoning, I find this disturbing. Often these answers, although not relevant to my philosophy, make me think about my world views which is very helpful.

Again, I apologise if I came across as trying to blindly debase your religion.

I'm not sad that I thought you were trying to "debase our religion" or anything like that- that's normal. What it seemed you were doing was being deceptive, underhanded. But over an internet forum, people are often read wrong. Forgive me for getting the wrong impression.

In other words, feel free to debase or rock our faith all you want, just don't be deceptive about it- which you weren't, so that's my bad. I truely do hope that you read that article about slavery, as it opened my eyes (always been Christian, but really had a roblem with slavery- now it's totally solved).

 

[lawtonfogle]

The Old Testment takes for granted that slavery is wrong

And this is compatible to the OT giving you guidelines on how to sell your children into slavery, even into sex slavery, how? God was ok with slavery back then, I just have no clue why.

 

[lawtonfogle]

the jews lived in a time where if you didn't have slaves then it probably meant you were a slave yourself. We see jews participating in both roles in the old testament. You can't exactly take over a land and just ignore the remaining survivors. Either you kill them, drive them out, or enslave them. Slavery is a product of defeating a people group and quite normal in that time.

the old testament actually had laws for the protecting the treatment of slaves for example:

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Exodus 21:20
If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.

Exodus 21:26-27
If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

Exodus 23:9 says You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33-34
When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 23:15-16
You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. "He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.

so from these verse we see that slaves had a day of rest once a week. If they were injured with something as simple as a broken tooth they were set free. If they were mistreated their owners were accountable for their actions and if a slave ran away from their owner the owner is to let the slave go and allow them to live where they want. We also see a general statement of how to treat foreigners and a to actually show them love not hate. hebrew slaves had even more rights so I don't see how the bible shows us immoral actions when it comes to slavery. Its not like they sailed ships to distant lands, robbed the people there, sailed them back then sold them into slavery. If that was the case it would be a different story.

Lets not cherry pick the laws here.

Exodus 21:20-21

20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Perhaps you can't kill them right off, but you can put them down for a day or two.

Then you have earlier in the same chapter where a slaves family are not released with him if given by to him by his master.

Then you have the issue where a female slave, with no mention of if she consent, and not even an age requirement (so God didn't even ban this with children), can be taken or given as a wife, basically making her a glorified sex slave (albeit not as bad a modern day human trafficking by any means).

So, it isn't as bad as some examples of slavery throughout history, but it is still pretty bad (worse for the women and girls it seems).

 

[lawtonfogle]

I know this is going to be a waste of time, but you need to understand that slavery in the Bible was profoundly different than it is in our time.

First of all, the Bible ALWAYS condemned that kind of slavery we commonly think of today when we think about slavery or see it portrayed in movies such as "Roots" or "Amistad". We see this condemnation in both Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10.

What you have to realize is that slavery in the Bible was primarily indenture based. That is, that a person agreed to act as a servent for a given number or years or until a debt was paid off. In this case, the slave entered into slavery willingly.

What's more, in many cases, the slaves were considered to be one of the family and were given the authority to carry out business and legal transactions o the part of the master, as well as often inheriting a part of the master's estate upon his death.

Don't confuse this with the African slavery you see on TV. Two completely different things.

Perhaps for men, but for women, it was much worse, and Exodus 21 spells out they are not to be let free after the 6 years are up, among the sex slave stuff previously mentioned.

 

[razeontherock]

You're still ignoring a couple things: 1) the cultural aspect was completely different;
2) those who owned slaves answered to God for how they treated them.

It's different from our concept of slavery today, but hated just as much.

 

[razeontherock]

The Federal Reserve in the USA made a lot of people become slaves without even realizing it.

This is completely off-topic, yet completely true. I wonder how Jesus thinks of that? And if those running for election were truly sent by God, why have none of them addressed it? Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled discussion ...

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to Exploring Christianity from Christian Apologetics.

 

[wayseer]

Our understanding takes time, but god decided to lay out a set of moral guidelines. He clearly states that killing and stealing are wrong, he could tell us that slavery was wrong and then the whole matter would have been cleared up.

For one who claims rationality as their guide I find it interesting you cannot accept a rational answer to your question.

You say you pose your question with no particular ideology in mind, yet you seem to be somewhat reluctant to accept the answers on offer - which seems to indicate an agenda of some sort on your part.

People are rightly 'mistrustful' of science. Science has no clean sheet that it can claim the high moral ground. At the moment there are court cases under way within our respective countries concerning the copyrighting of the human genome. This is a ethical issue apparently with which science finds it difficult to negotiate. Apparently logic fails human reasonings at particular moments.

 

[Sketcher]

It was chiefly a way to pay off debts, and though it too was short of what God originally intended (like divorce, see Matthew 19:7-8), it was more humane than American slavery was. You actually had a very good chance of getting your freedom back.

"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. But if your servant says to you, 'I do not want to leave you,' because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant. Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do." - Deuteronomy 15:12-18

 

[lawtonfogle]

For one who claims rationality as their guide I find it interesting you cannot accept a rational answer to your question.

You say you pose your question with no particular ideology in mind, yet you seem to be somewhat reluctant to accept the answers on offer - which seems to indicate an agenda of some sort on your part.

People are rightly 'mistrustful' of science. Science has no clean sheet that it can claim the high moral ground. At the moment there are court cases under way within our respective countries concerning the copyrighting of the human genome. This is a ethical issue apparently with which science finds it difficult to negotiate. Apparently logic fails human reasonings at particular moments.

Don't confuse science and scientist. Science is amoral, not moral, and thus it cannot claim the moral high ground, but any problems it causes is because of how humans use it.

 

[lawtonfogle]

It was chiefly a way to pay off debts, and though it too was short of what God originally intended (like divorce, see Matthew 19:7-8), it was more humane than American slavery was. You actually had a very good chance of getting your freedom back.

"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. But if your servant says to you, 'I do not want to leave you,' because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant. Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do." - Deuteronomy 15:12-18

Exodus 21:7
7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.


Perhaps only female slaves who were sold by their parents could not go free after some time, but those who sold themselves to you could.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You're still ignoring a couple things: 1) the cultural aspect was completely different;
2) those who owned slaves answered to God for how they treated them.

It's different from our concept of slavery today, but hated just as much.

My issue is not with the sell yourself into slavery. While drastic, there isn't anything inherently wrong with a long term, but finite, contract of indentured servitude. It is with the life long cases, with withholding the family, and with the women and female children being forced into marriages (due to the culture back then, they had very little say, but at the same time, they would have been far more agreeable than a woman from today's culture).

 

[razeontherock]

I agree with that, except if you were a slave you would want your family with you. And they would want to be with you, although these feelings would obviously be mixed.

In any event slavery is the ultimate horror, and obedience to God is promised to bring the ability to lend, avoiding the need to borrow, so you'd never have to sell yourself into slavery in the first place! The OT is largely man getting himself in trouble, calling upon the Lord who saves him, man forgets God, gets himself in trouble ... lather, rinse and repeat as necessary.

 

[Sketcher]

Exodus 21:7
7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.


Perhaps only female slaves who were sold by their parents could not go free after some time, but those who sold themselves to you could.

The following verses actually tell us the differences.

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." - Exodus 21:7-11

Makes sense when you consider the position of women in that society in relation to marriage and all that. Different people had different protections.

 

[Sketcher]

This only refers to Israelite slaves. There is a big distinction. Lev 25:44-46 makes this clear. Israelite slaves could not be ruled over harshly. This is not the case for foreigners. They were full fledged slaves by any definition. They could be bought, sold, beaten, inherited. They were property. And remember this was commissioned by God, not by the prevailing culture (according to the Bible of course). There were a few regulations (ie don't knock out their eyes or teeth), but there were regulations in American slavery too. This doesn't make it moral. Slavery is wrong.

In any case, slavery was not part of God's original plan for mankind. The Law of Moses made several compromises with regional culture (by permitting divorce, slavery, and avengers of blood).

 

[lawtonfogle]

In any case, slavery was not part of God's original plan for mankind. The Law of Moses made several compromises with regional culture (by permitting divorce, slavery, and avengers of blood).

But it wouldn't budge on the adultery.

Interesting that adultery/homosexuality/cursing your parents is worse than slavery/divorce/rape (of a non-married woman, and thus not adultery)/statutory rape.

In general, I would have put that list backwards, with rape/slavery worse than adultery/homosexuality and so on.