Let's try this again

[shinbits]

You're saying you believe there are actually other gods?

No. I believe there are other false gods. Like the CC's version of Mary.

Hmm. Two chapters later St. Paul says that "death came to all men, because all men sinned". So does the Bible contradict itself (since we know that death did not come to Elijah and Enoch by God's power), or is your understanding of what 'all' means incorrect? I'm opting for door #2 myself.

Death coming to all men, and all men sucumbing to death are different things. The fact that no man is born immortal, including Elijah and Enoch, means that death came to them. Just like when God said in the Garden, that Adam and Eve will "surely die" once they eat of it. Obviously, God didn't mean they'd succumb to in the same day, but the ability to die will come.

So yes, Paul's right: death came to "all" of humankind before of the sin in the Garden. So saying that Mary is sinless, when the Bible says "all" have sinned that descended from Adam, would be calling the Bible incorrect.

Basically, Catholic doctrine, like Mary being sinless, contradicts the Bible.

 

[shinbits]

Epic fail.

Your inability to refute this is an epic failure. That's twice you've resorted to these tactics when unable to defend your position.

 

[hope_is_last_to_die]

If God's power made her sinless, the Bible wouldn't have said all people descended of Adam (which would exclude Christ) are sinners. The Bible would've said all people, except Mary, are sinners. Thus, Mary is a sinner. If she's not, you'd be accusing the Bible of being wrong.

True, the reason the RCC majors on Mary being sinless, in spite of the fact that God tells us she was a sinner like the rest of humanity is because of the worship of Mary in the RCC. Im sure Roman Catholic's on this forum will say we dont worship Mary. They only bow down to statues of Mary for fun.

Mary is truly blessed to have had the privilege of being the mother of Jesus, she was blessed because of the Blessed Lord Jesus. Also its so wonderful that Mary had her sins forgiven by the Blessed Lord Jesus!! Lets worship the Blessed Lord Jesus, He is worthy of all our worship

 

[shinbits]

Heresy alert. Heresy Alert!!!!

With out Mary Christ would not exist. He took on His humanity from her.

It seems your heresy alert was in regards to your second sentence.

Christ existed BEFORE Mary. And being God, Christ could've came into the world through any woman he chose.

So you're wrong, buddy. Again.

 

[lionroar0]

Your inability to refute this is an epic failure. That's twice you've resorted to these tactics when unable to defend your position.

Actually I just don't want to be bothered, nor take the time to refute your epic fail. I can better spend my time watching a movie.

 

[shinbits]

True, the reason the RCC majors on Mary being sinless, in spite of the fact that God tells us she was a sinner like the rest of humanity is because of the worship of Mary in the RCC. Im sure Roman Catholic's on this forum will say we dont worship Mary. They only bow down to statues of Mary for fun.

Mary is truly blessed to have had the privilege of being the mother of Jesus, she was blessed because of the Blessed Lord Jesus. Also its so wonderful that Mary had her sins forgiven by the Blessed Lord Jesus!! Lets worship the Blessed Lord Jesus, He is worthy of all our worship

Thank you, an honest Catholic.

Christ be with you.

 

[lionroar0]

It seems your heresy alert was in regards to your second sentence.

Christ existed BEFORE Mary. So you're wrong, buddy. Again.

Not fully revealed as the second person of the the Trinity. Who is fully human and divine.

He got His humanity from Mary. Where do you think it came from?

Also Mary is His mother, because when He was born of Her. He came into this world at one point in time.

That is what happens when we are born from our mothers. We come to exist at one point in time.

Saying that she was just a surrogate is heresy.

 

[narnia59]

God's grace cannot make a god?

God is capable of creating any being that is not equal to Himself. Perhaps a working definition of 'god' would be a good thing.

Not as big a deal as when done by someone born of two sinful parents. Not even Christ did that.

Um, the saints in heaven were born of two sinful parents.

Mary is no more Christ's mom than a surrogate implanted with an embryo. Mary is not the reason Christ came, just the vessel. Without Mary, someone else would've been chosen, and Christ would've still come. However, without Christ, she wouldn't exist, since Christ not only predates her, but being God, created her. Basically, it would be like calling David Jesus' great grandfather, which in actuality is false.

Furthermore, there's a reason Jesus never refers to her as "mother", but "woman", something very disrespectful to do if she actually was his mom.

For these reasons, Mary isn't the "queen of heaven."

Scripture says that she is his mother, not a surrogate. Are you saying that he was not of her flesh? Scripture lies when it refers to Christ as being of David's "seed"?

And unless you do not believe that Christ would have died for any one of us, then Christ indeed came for Mary.

Without Christ, she would indeed not exist.

The second person of the Trinity pre-exists Mary. Jesus Christ, the second person incarnate in the flesh, God become man, does not.

If David is not the grandparent of Christ, I suppose 'son of David' is false then too?

There is indeed a reason Jesus refers to Mary as woman. If it is as you say and he was being disrespectul to the woman Scripture identifies as his mother, you have just accused him of being a sinner by violating the commandment to honor her.

God probably lets the angels know. There's no evidence the angels know this themselves.

Without being in Christ, Mary could not hear prayers. Because she does, still not deity.

Wrong. No one ever prayed to the apostles for an apostle to act on a prayer.

They were asked for their intercession. People tried to simply be crossed by Peter's shadow. Requests abounded.

Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.


Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.

The problem is that if you add up a bunch of zeroes, it's still equals zero.

I got this from one of your buddies, and even posted who said it. If he's wrong, I'm not surprised RC's can't get their story straight.


You have been thoroughly refuted.

You took a quote completely out of the context it was written, the rest of which completely discredited the point you were trying to use it to make. And that is called what?

 

[lionroar0]

<staff edit>

Maybe I'm waiting for some one to watch the movie with, in the mean time I'm responding.

Maybe you should keep you faulty judgements to yourself. As you have no idea what's going on; on other side of my keyboard.

The same thing as when PPL bow down to a statue of Mary. You don't know what's going on in their hearts.

 

[narnia59]

Thank you, an honest Catholic.

Christ be with you.

Who are you referring to as being Catholic?

 

[narnia59]

No. I believe there are other false gods. Like the CC's version of Mary.

False gods created by God?

Any person can create an idol out of any person or thing. Basically anything one puts before God. Evidence that Catholics put Mary before God -- have you read through the text of the Mass yet?

Death coming to all men, and all men sucumbing to death are different things. The fact that no man is born immortal, including Elijah and Enoch, means that death came to them. Just like when God said in the Garden, that Adam and Eve will "surely die" once they eat of it. Obviously, God didn't mean they'd succumb to in the same day, but the ability to die will come.

So yes, Paul's right: death came to "all" of humankind before of the sin in the Garden. So saying that Mary is sinless, when the Bible says "all" have sinned that descended from Adam, would be calling the Bible incorrect.

Basically, Catholic doctrine, like Mary being sinless, contradicts the Bible.

Maybe a better translation is in order, like the good ole KJV:

Wherefore , as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Passing upon all -- dead.

For a good, non-Catholic view of how the Bible uses the term 'all', read here:

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

Particular Redemption

Interesting, isn't it? The exact same context Paul is using with Gentiles and Jews -- some of "all" sorts. Evidence that "all" here means something different than that?

 

[narnia59]

It seems your heresy alert was in regards to your second sentence.

Christ existed BEFORE Mary. And being God, Christ could've came into the world through any woman he chose.

So you're wrong, buddy. Again.

Being God, Christ would have come into the world only through a woman who would have agreed to participate.

Again, the second person of the blessed Trinity existed before Mary. The Word became flesh, Jesus Christ, after.

 

[narnia59]

True, the reason the RCC majors on Mary being sinless, in spite of the fact that God tells us she was a sinner like the rest of humanity is because of the worship of Mary in the RCC. Im sure Roman Catholic's on this forum will say we dont worship Mary. They only bow down to statues of Mary for fun.

Mary is truly blessed to have had the privilege of being the mother of Jesus, she was blessed because of the Blessed Lord Jesus. Also its so wonderful that Mary had her sins forgiven by the Blessed Lord Jesus!! Lets worship the Blessed Lord Jesus, He is worthy of all our worship

Is creating an image worship?

Is bowing to someone or something worship?

Scripture where God says Mary was a sinner?

Scripture where Christ forgives Mary's sins?

Remaining sinless in a fallen world requires a cooperation with grace, something we're all supposed to be trying to do, right?

So has God asked of us something that is impossible?

 

[Dorothea]

Heresy alert. Heresy Alert!!!!

With out Mary Christ would not exist. He took on His humanity from her.

Reading shinbit's post you quoted was very shocking and hurtful. I cringe. Lord, have mercy on shinbits' disrespecting and degrading your holy Mother. He knows not what he says.

 

[lionroar0]

Reading shinbit's post you quoted was very shocking and hurtful. I cringe. Lord, have mercy on shinbits' disrespecting and degrading your holy Mother. He knows not what he says.

Yes it was.

 

[narnia59]

One of the more interesting Gospel stores from Matthew 15:

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-ahttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-bhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to 'honor his fatherhttp://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-c ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-4'http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-dhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-5" 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,'http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Basically the Pharisees had decided that if people wanted to give them money for "God" instead of caring for their parents, that was okay. They 'nullified' the word of God for the sake of their tradition.

Others choose to nullify God's word by claiming Jesus openly disrespected the woman Scripture refers to more than once as his 'mother'. This is for the sake of their tradition -- Mary must not be seen as anything special.

For those interested in why Jesus really referred to Mary as woman, I suggest they research the Old Testament 'type' for who else had the name of "woman".

Other than that, I've spent way too much time here running through other people's same circus hoops. Out of here.
http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-7

 

[Jpark]

It seems like these Catholics are disobeying God. This is clearly against the Bible.

Agree or disagree? And why?

The Catholics will deny it. It is futile to attempt to prove that they are disobeying God by worshiping Mary. Only God can prove it and He will.

 

[laconicstudent]

You know, I personally don't agree with the Immaculate Conception either, but if it is going to be argued, it at least deserves better then this.

 

[lionroar0]

The Catholics will deny it. It is futile to attempt to prove that they are disobeying God by worshiping Mary. Only God can prove it and He will.

Yes we are poor deluded fools. Even though we say we say we do not worship Mary. PPL still seem to know better then us, as to what we and do not do.

 

[laconicstudent]

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