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666 was a mistranslation, Oxford says

98cwitr

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98cwitr

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Honestly, it doesn't really impact my understanding of Scripture much. This has been pretty widey known about for at least the last 2f years. The study Bible that I used in high school had translator's note about this.

oh, well I just found out :p
 
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kfuller2

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Interesting, yes, but does it really matter? In today's technological world, isn't the mark of the beast going to be like the microchips they put in pets? Either in the hand or the forehead? So you wouldn't see the numbers anyway if they were imbedded in a bar code would you? Just wondering.....
 
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98cwitr

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Interesting, yes, but does it really matter? In today's technological world, isn't the mark of the beast going to be like the microchips they put in pets? Either in the hand or the forehead? So you wouldn't see the numbers anyway if they were imbedded in a bar code would you? Just wondering.....

no, I just find Biblical Numerology really fascinating. :)
 
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Eleiou

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Kenneth Gentry, although a partial preterist (see herefor preterist), has a scholarly and interesting input on this variant:

Taken from Before Jerusalem Fell - pages 196-198

The Textual Variant
Another introductory matter undoubtedly of significance in determining the identity of this “666” is the matter of the textual variant in the Greek of Revelation 13:18. Although both the strongest manuscript evidence and intrinsic probability are supportive of the reading “666,” 16 there is some slight manuscript and historical evidence for the number “616.”
Instead of .AprjKovrcz, which is strongly supported by p~7 N A P 046
051 all extant minuscule it@g vg syz+h~h Copsa>bo armal, &$za is read by C some manuscripts known to Irenaeus (who, however, says that 666 is found &#8220;in all good and ancient copies,&#8221; and is &#8220;attested by those who had themselves seen John face to face&#8221;), and TyconiusPt. According to Tischendorfs 8th cd., the numeral 616 was also read by two minuscule manuscripts which unfortunately are no longer extant (nos. 5 and 11; cf. C. R. Gregory, Prolegomena, p. 676). When Greek letters are used as numerals the difference between 666 and 616 is merely a change fi-om <to z (666 = jy<< and 616 = ~<). 17

Irenaeus&#8217;s reference to the variation is as follows:
Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number [i.e., 666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it] . . . I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their experience, have ventured
to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. 18
Although the manuscript evidence for the variant is relatively sparse, the very fact that it exists is significant. &#8220;The reading thus curtly dismissed [by Irenaeus] gained so good a footing that it survives in one of our best uncials and in two cursives, and in the commentary of the Pseudo-Augustine, where the writer probably [follows] Tyconius.&#8221;lg Thus, although it is certain that the original reading of Revelation was properly &#8220;666,&#8221; it is remarkable that &#8220;616&#8221; appeared in certain ancient manuscripts and traditions dating back
to the second century.
17. Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testanwnt (London:
United Bible Societies, 197 1), pp. 751-752. Punctuation standardized.
18. Irenaeus, Agamrt Heresia 5:30:1.
There is an interpolation in the Latin manuscript which is omitted in the Greek of Eusebius&#8217;s record of it (Ecd. Hid. 5:8), which adds: &#8220;I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.&#8221; Most patristic scholars believe this to be added by a hand other than Irenaeus&#8217;s. See Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers [ANF], 10 vols. (Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, [late 19th c.] 1975) 1:558 n. 4.
19. Henry Barclay Swete, Commentmy on Revelation (Grand Rapids: Kregel, [1906]
1977), p. 175.


continuied from page 202

Textual variants necessarily fall into two broad groups: those that arise by accident and those that arise by intention. w There are various ways by which aaidental uananti can mar the text. There are errors of sight, caused by a confusion of similarly drawn letters; errors of writing, where a scribe inadvertently writes one letter for another; errors of hearing (especially when a text is being dictated to copyists) due to the similarity of sounds between certain letters, diphthongs, etc.; and errors of judgment, where, for
example, an abbreviated word might have been put into the wrong unabbreviated form. Intentional uanants can occur for any number of reasons and these reasons are more diflicult to discern But &#8220;for the most part&#8221; they are derived &#8220;from attempts by scribes to improve the text in various ways.&#8221;41
The two leading options before the textual critic42 in the present instance are 666 and 616. In the earlier extant manuscripts the number is written out in words that are quite different: &#8220;six hundreds and sixty-six&#8221; is written: t~amkzol 2~@ona & %x hundreds and sixteen&#8221; is written: kfamhol &za .4~. Or, as in some of the later manuscripts &#8212; and almost certainly in the original &#8212; the variant numbers are written thus: 666 appears as ~$q and 616 appears as w<. The letters in question are ~ (60) and I (10). Immediately the Greek student recognizes the difficulty of an accidental confusion accounting for the divergence. It is diilicult to see how an error of sight, sound, writing, or judgment could explain the variant; the letters are as different in style, size, and sound as any two Greek letters could be.43 Obviously the variant is of the intentional class.
But why?
Although such a problem is necessarily difficult to trace down, a strong case can be made for an early copyist&#8217;s intentionally altering the number in order to make the discerning of the referent easier.
40. J. Harold Greenlee, Zntroa%ction to New Testam TextuQl Criticiwn (Grand Rapids:
Eerdmans, 1964), p. 63.
41. Ibid., p. 66.
42. There is one other extremely improbable variant: 606. See Ford, Revelation, p.
226, and the textual apparatus of Aland, et. al., Greek New T~tatrwnt, p. 869.
43. Eberhard Nestle, Zntroa!wtion to the Textwd Critictrm of the Greek New Tutatwnt, trans.
William Edie (London: William and Norgate, 1901 ), p. 334. Cf Swete, Rewlation, p. 175.
 
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bubbles881

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This may just be me, but Bible Numerology stuff kind of scares me. It kind of seems like superstition or something. Ideas such as this go over my head:

Interesting, yes, but does it really matter? In today's technological world, isn't the mark of the beast going to be like the microchips they put in pets? Either in the hand or the forehead? So you wouldn't see the numbers anyway if they were imbedded in a bar code would you? Just wondering.....

I guess I'm confused because it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that we should be afraid of microchips.

Oh, and I'm sure a good computer scientist would be able to see the numbers in a microchip.
 
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98cwitr

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I speak binary very well :)

Beware a microchip or barcode bearing this!!!
1010011010 = 666

Barcode standard for the US Government is Code 39, thus the number 666 in Code 39 form would look exactly like this (minus the green dot) where smallest bar width is equal to 6 (just pay attention to the order of skinny bars to thick bars to determine things):

666barcode.jpg
 
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dies-l

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I actually believe that God has preserved His word as he intended,because God is sovereign.There are always liberal scholars who delight in casting doubt on scripture.Remember,man may rule,but God overrules. God bless you :)

Perhaps, God is using the liberal scholars to accomplish the task of preserving His word. After all, God is sovereign.
 
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Texan40

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There is an ocean of difference between a theologian and a linguist. Old Roman Latin is alive and well in comparison to the common Green used to transport the NT. Just like "The Church" isn't a building, "The Word" isn't simply parchment. Because of translation issues the specific words used to convey the ideas and principles of the Bible can perhaps be nitpicked but the Word still rings out loud and true regardless. Color me "traditional" but I can't see why modern translations of a dead language based on mostly secular and trivial papyri exhumed from a trash heap in 19th century Egypt should be declared "more accurate" than existing Bible translations.
 
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DesertJoe

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Perhaps, God is using the liberal scholars to accomplish the task of preserving His word. After all, God is sovereign.


That would mean that God has left us with an inaccurate text for 2000 years.One of Satan's favorite tricks is "Hath God not said" & then seeking to contradict it.Arguments about the text distract from the message of Jesus Christ.That makes Satan happy.
 
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DesertJoe

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There is an ocean of difference between a theologian and a linguist. Old Roman Latin is alive and well in comparison to the common Green used to transport the NT. Just like "The Church" isn't a building, "The Word" isn't simply parchment. Because of translation issues the specific words used to convey the ideas and principles of the Bible can perhaps be nitpicked but the Word still rings out loud and true regardless. Color me "traditional" but I can't see why modern translations of a dead language based on mostly secular and trivial papyri exhumed from a trash heap in 19th century Egypt should be declared "more accurate" than existing Bible translations.


Amen Texan 40.Very good way to state it.Thank you :)
 
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dies-l

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That would mean that God has left us with an inaccurate text for 2000 years.One of Satan's favorite tricks is "Hath God not said" & then seeking to contradict it.Arguments about the text distract from the message of Jesus Christ.That makes Satan happy.

The problem with this is that you are still left with the problem of God leaving someone with an inaccurate manuscript. It is not as though "liberal scholars" just randomly pull these manuscripts out of thin air. Rather, these are real manuscripts that were regarded as Scripture by some group of Christians and/or Jews at some point in history. We know, for example, that there are huge differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic Texts. Which one is right? If the latter, then God left the 1st Millennium Christians with an inaccurate text. If the former, then the English translations that relied on the MT are wrong.

Really, there is no way reasonable way to view the history of biblical manuscripts without concluding that some manuscripts are more accurate than others. So, should we assume that the pivotal date then is 1611? Perhaps, but this is really quite arbitrary. Perhaps, it was rather the turn of the 20th Century with the ASV or the mid-20th century with the RSV or the 1970s with the NIV or the 1980s with the NRSV or the 1990s with the NASB(r) or the current decade with the ESV. Each translation has subtle differences in the choices of manuscripts used.

Or, perhaps, as I believe Texan was pointing out, God's word shines through even when imperfect manuscripts are used. So, perhaps the differences that arise between manuscripts are sorted out when they need to be sorted out. So, the "liberal scholars" of today (many of whom are considered to be conservative, evangelical, and sometimes even fundamentalist) are continuing to help us to unwrap and understand God's word in new ways.

In the instant case, perhaps earlier Christians did not need to know what the mark of the beast was. Perhaps, we will soon. Who knows? If that is the case, it would not be inconsistent that contemporary scholarship offers a correction of the previously held belief. This could be antagonism from "liberal scholars" or it could be God ensuring that His word is accurate for our needs today.
 
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