Demonic Infiltration of the Catholic Church?

[Rick Otto]

quote=SpiritualAntiseptic; A statement like that could only be made by someone that does not know anything about Catholicism or any faithful Catholics.

On the contrary, I know both & the statement stands, inarticulate as it may be.

This is a statement that derives from living in a culture with myths and a few views into Catholicism but not much more.

That's a defensive stance typical of anyone defendiong their own affiliation.

If one person's church has a praise and worship band and has a charismatic preacher that motivates people, then to him, that church is right.

So what?

If the Catholics are offering worship in a way that is orderly and allows people to participate and speak as one voice, then that is just all hung up on rituals.

This is a statement that derives from living in a culture with myths and a few views into Protestantism but not much more.
Sound familiar?

It is certain protestants that get hung up on the rituals of others.

Anti-Protestant sentiment.

I believe the reason for it is that many realize just how empty their service is.

Anti-Protestant hostility.

That is why they have screaming preachers, giant choirs, rock bands, whatever gimmick entertains for a while.

Mocking,... flaming...

They need something to be excited by and so when they see someone doing something else, an actual liturgy, they believe something must be wrong and they surely aren't getting the same excitement they get from their loud preacher or moving worship band. They didn't have the same powerful altar call where they got saved.

Pitifuly sad...

I don't think Catholicism is any more ritualistic than most other traditions of Christians.

Ah! An opinion!

The difference is that Christ is present for us in the appearance of bread and wine...and that means more to us than whatever rush the modern, gimmicky churches come up with.

Flip, glib, smug.

The experience is so important, so powerful that there needs to be a certain sense of quiet and dignity. But most importantly, as we celebrate our unity in communion, we also cekebrate in our voices and actions together-- which you call ritualistic, but we believe is unified.

As you are free to do here in America, thanks to our Protestant Founding Fathers who believed in freedom of religion condemned in the pope's "Syllabus of Errors".

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

On the contrary, I know both & the statement stands, inarticulate as it may be.


That's a defensive stance typical of anyone defendiong their own affiliation.



So what?
This is a statement that derives from living in a culture with myths and a few views into Protestantism but not much more.
Sound familiar?


Anti-Protestant sentiment.


Anti-Protestant hostility.


Mocking,... flaming...


Pitifuly sad...


Ah! An opinion!


Flip, glib, smug.

As you are free to do here in America, thanks to our Protestant Founding Fathers who believed in freedom of religion condemned in the pope's "Syllabus of Errors".

You can look over your responses to see that you didn't say anything of substance or even a bit that I could respond to.

As for your last comment, I find it difficult to believe that anyone today honestly holds up the naive jingoism we were taught in elementary school. I'll skip over the fact that founding fathers massacred indians and enslaved people for being the wrong color... I'll get to the assumption where the bill of rights and the freedoms secured were some masterful works of brilliance from political philosophers.

Freedom of religion had nothing to do with principle. It was pragmatic as was the bill of rights. They knew Americans were anti-authoritarian and too divided on religion to ever support a particular church.

The bill of rights is a list of grievances, such as having troops in civilians homes and a bunch of compromises. The politicians then were just as corrupt as the ones today. Yet, we act like they were the pinnacles of virtue.

 

[Rick Otto]

The naive jingoism in "Syllabus of Errors" is commonly believed.
Skip over RC massacres of Christians and get to where the Protestant founding fathers only allowed RCs to own land in one colony they quickly naned "Maryland".
They only allowed it because they believed in freedom of religion.
Only a dedicated religionist could hate his own country.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The naive jingoism in "Syllabus of Errors" is commonly believed.
Skip over RC massacres of Christians and get to where the Protestant founding fathers only allowed RCs to own land in one colony they quickly naned "Maryland".
They only allowed it because they believed in freedom of religion.
Only a dedicated religionist could hate his own country.

Your post is completely wrong on several accounts:
1) There were no massacres of Christians by the Catholic Church.
2) The protestant founding fathers had nothing to do with the founding of Maryland. It was a colony setup by King Charles I. The colony was named by Charles' wife, Queen Mary. The charter for the colony was granted to a Catholic, so there was tolerance for Catholics there.
It had nothing to do with anyone in America believing in freedom of religion or tolerating Catholics. The colony was established in 1632.
3) I never said anything about hating my country. Love of American ideology and the revisionism of history gets nauseating. We look at the Bill of Rights and claim it was monumental. It was a bunch of grievances and compromises. It was written by men that tended to own slaves and saw nothing wrong in taking the lands and lives of the natives.

People react negatively to comments like mine because the brainwashing is so throughly part of our culture. We don't even see how much our government pushes our ideology as much as China does.

America is a decent country, but lets accept freedom or religion and what the founders did in historical fact. It was a compromise,they had no way of making the country work accept by having freedom of religion.

 

[John 10:10]

I think the Catholic Church as a whole is present day Pharisees and Sadducees. They are so stuck on their history and rituals that they are losing sight of what Christianity is. If they had to pick between the Pope and Jesus Christ, I think Jesus would be left in the cold.

A statement like that could only be made by someone that does not know anything about Catholicism or any faithful Catholics.

This is a statement that derives from living in a culture with myths and a few views into Catholicism but not much more. If one person's church has a praise and worship band and has a charismatic preacher that motivates people, then to him, that church is right. If the Catholics are offering worship in a way that is orderly and allows people to participate and speak as one voice, then that is just all hung up on rituals.

It is certain protestants that get hung up on the rituals of others. I believe the reason for it is that many realize just how empty their service is. That is why they have screaming preachers, giant choirs, rock bands, whatever gimmick entertains for a while. They need something to be excited by and so when they see someone doing something else, an actual liturgy, they believe something must be wrong and they surely aren't getting the same excitement they get from their loud preacher or moving worship band. They didn't have the same powerful altar call where they got saved.

I don't think Catholicism is any more ritualistic than most other traditions of Christians. The difference is that Christ is present for us in the appearance of bread and wine...and that means more to us than whatever rush the modern, gimmicky churches come up with. The experience is so important, so powerful that there needs to be a certain sense of quiet and dignity. But most importantly, as we celebrate our unity in communion, we also cekebrate in our voices and actions together-- which you call ritualistic, but we believe is unified.

I've learned that those who love to point their finger most vehemently at the sins of others usually have at least 3 fingers pointing back at them with sins much worse than those they are decrying.

 

[laconicstudent]

I've learned that those who love to point their finger most vehemently at the sins of others usually have at least 3 fingers pointing back at them with sins much worse than those they are decrying.

*ponders the flood of condemnation on this forum and in the media against the RCC in regards to the sex scandal in light of that statement*

 

[Rick Otto]

I've learned that those who love to point their finger most vehemently at the sins of others usually have at least 3 fingers pointing back at them with sins much worse than those they are decrying.

While it's true we're all pots & kettles, it's equaly true we're all black.
And while we can order anything from the menu, we can only eat from the table.
An allegation isn't completely de-legitimized simply because the accuser is. We gotta remember that talkin' donkey.

 

[John 10:10]

While it's true we're all pots & kettles, it's equaly true we're all black.
And while we can order anything from the menu, we can only eat from the table.
An allegation isn't completely de-legitimized simply because the accuser is. We gotta remember that talkin' donkey.

Balaam's donkey spoke nothing but truth to his master. To catagorize the Catholic Church "as a whole" as present day Pharisees and Sadducees does not lend itself to truth. I wonder "as a whole" how much of Protestantism could pass this litmus test? I wonder how many popes there are in many Protestant churches?

One becomes a true Christian because of who the Lord Jesus is in the life of sinner turned saint, not because of what garage they park their car in.

 

[Rick Otto]

Agreed. I never present Protestantism as inerrant.
In fact, tho I hold to the canons of Dordt, I part ways with Calvin on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.

 

[Rhamiel]

Agreed. I never present Protestantism as inerrant.
In fact, tho I hold to the canons of Dordt, I part ways with Calvin on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.

well we can agree on that
Protestantism is not inerrant

 

[Rick Otto]

Gee,.. thanks,... I think.

 

[Chris81]

To say that any christian denomination has been infiltrated by the devil, is a form of verbal cyanide that is unbefitting of anyone who would consider themselves to be a christian. We must as a community of Christians exercise the discipline of the tongue to witness the truth but speak lovingly to one another, and refrain from diminishing our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I being a protestant, do not subscribe to various Catholic Church doctrines. For example I do not see any biblical evidence for purgatory and I believe that an individual must repent of theirs sins directly to Christ and not through a priest. However, my mother is a catholic and I see that she has received the saving grace of faith in her life and is growing in devotional faith through Christ on a daily basis. The catholic church has been instrumental in forming and enriching her faith. However imperfect a church it may be, it has brought many to faith in Christ.

Let us also not forget that as protestants we derive much of our history, our traditions, and our liturgy from the catholic church. It is likely that no church has perfect doctrine but we who are part of the invisible church (those who have been brought to faith in Christ as true believers) are seeking to make disciples in Christ who will share the message of God's love.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well said, & thank you.
Great first post, too BTW.

 

[emilio]

Just as apostles and prophet of the Lord prophesied it happened from the time of the apostle until now. “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”(Ac. 15:5) For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. (Tit. 1:9-10) Then the parable of the sower fulfilled. In addition to that, I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. As for those who seemed to be important — whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance. Ga. (2:2-6) You see even then when the apostles of the Lord are still on earth there are infiltration of the devil.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

well we can agree on that
Protestantism is not inerrant

Gee,.. thanks,... I think.

Ok.......what's the catch or "but"?

 

[altruist]

To say that any christian denomination has been infiltrated by the devil, is a form of verbal cyanide that is unbefitting of anyone who would consider themselves to be a christian. We must as a community of Christians exercise the discipline of the tongue to witness the truth but speak lovingly to one another, and refrain from diminishing our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I agree with Chris.

 

[Chris81]

I agree with Chris.

Thanks and welcome to Christian Forums.

 

[outOftheLoop]

In particular, during the Spanish Inquisition. The torture devices constructed by human hands but surely of satanic design. And that is to say nothing of the Inquisition itself!

Why else would the Devil infiltrate the Church but to thrust a defiant middle finger up at God?

i tend to agree w/ you but the Inquisition was not as bad as some historians say it was. For one thing, every chnace was given for the accused heretic to recant. If he obstinately refused to agree with the Church (that Christ instituted on Earth) he was then declard a heretic and that is whne he was handed over to the non-Church authorities (the king). it was the king who decided what was to be done with him/her. Often priests & bishops interceded to try to save the heretics life. the Church has always taught that killing humans is a very serious thing. Yes, there have always been evil humans administering justice and so called justice in the courts of the Inquisition. Human nature doesn't change throughout history much. But overall, the Inquisition Courts were just. People used to ASK that they be tried by those courts rather than the usual ones.

strange you call yourself Catholic & yet dont seem too enthused about your Church, but i can't say i dont know the feeling

 

[outOftheLoop]

To say that any christian denomination has been infiltrated by the devil, is a form of verbal cyanide that is unbefitting of anyone who would consider themselves to be a christian. We must as a community of Christians exercise the discipline of the tongue to witness the truth but speak lovingly to one another, and refrain from diminishing our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I being a protestant, do not subscribe to various Catholic Church doctrines. For example I do not see any biblical evidence for purgatory and I believe that an individual must repent of theirs sins directly to Christ and not through a priest. However, my mother is a catholic and I see that she has received the saving grace of faith in her life and is growing in devotional faith through Christ on a daily basis. The catholic church has been instrumental in forming and enriching her faith. However imperfect a church it may be, it has brought many to faith in Christ.

Let us also not forget that as protestants we derive much of our history, our traditions, and our liturgy from the catholic church. It is likely that no church has perfect doctrine but we who are part of the invisible church (those who have been brought to faith in Christ as true believers) are seeking to make disciples in Christ who will share the message of God's love.

.
actually the Roman Catholic Church (Officially) is not "imperfect" this is because the teachings come directly from Christ, who began this Church. It is just the people in the Church who are a problem, as is always the case. We are all terrible sinners and some worse than others. Just because a person is a member of a church doesn't mean he is christ-like, as i am sure you know. i'm sure we all know "christians" who are not christian

Anyway, that being said, there is a lot of imperfect stuff going on in the Church. Not too many Catholics know that better than i do, i dare say (VERY long story).

anyway, what doctrines do you not subscribe to?

i dont have a problme with any of them. i just have a problem with the extent of hypocricy in the members thereof, but that is something to be found in any Christian group...

Jesus said that there are few who make it to Heavne (Mt Chapt 7, etc)

so it doesn't surprise me that many "Catholics" are not Christian, at least not by some definitions of the word (I am refrring to my defintion in particular)

 

[outOftheLoop]

It was the Spanish Inquistion that tortured people- and it was run by the Spanish government to get rid of Muslim Moors and Jews.

almost accurate

it was run to get rid of heretics. A lot of Muslims were pretending to be Cahtolic so they could get good jobs in gov't and that kind of thing.

the Muslim religion is and in some ways, always has been a great threat to the stability of a given state. Not all Muslims are willing to kil themselves & a lot of innocent others as in 911, but the ones who are should be dealt with in no uncertain, wishy-washy way.

lIn those days the kings & queens saw any threat 2 the state on this scale as being "treason" so there really wasn't the stigma about the Inquisition as there is now. things always look so much worse the more yrs have gone by and the more distance there is between us modern people & those of the ancient world. People forget things... and then historians always have their bias written into whatever they write..

Actually false beliefs really are a great threat to the stability of a nation. Look at how the loose morals of today are weakening us. The Roman empire fell due to ubiquitous, unchecked immorality

i have more to say but will leave it at that