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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
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Neither! In the time of Jesus the shepherd would herd his sheep into a pen then lay down across the opening where he would be the "door," keeping the sheep in and keeping predators out. The early church considered the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be factual and here is my argument why it is factual.
In some ways Luke 16:19-32 does appear to be a parable, but for many reasons, it can be shown that it is not a parable.
The definition of a parable: Greek: "παραβολή/parabole is based on the Greek word, παραβάλλω, paraballo, "to throw or lay beside, to compare. "παραβολή or parable means to place something beside something else for the purpose of comparison. A Biblical parable uses a story from ordinary, every day events and objects that the intended audience is familiar with, then Jesus, explains or clarifies an unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth by comparing it to what is known. The question is then, what is the unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The spiritual truth of Luke 16:19-32, has or needs nothing to be "thrown beside" or compared to. Unlike the parables of the sower, lost coins, lost sheep which Jesus had to explain to be understood.
All parables, are ordinary, every day, realistic events and objects that could be readily understood. The only every day, ordinary event in Luke 16:19-31, is Lazarus and the rich man living their respective lives then dying. After that Jesus describes events after death, which nobody in Jesus immediate audience, or anyone who has lived since, could possibly have any knowledge of.
Everyone understands from human experience the parables of the sower, a widow losing coins, a man planting a field, etc! The view, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, miserably fails. The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.
The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. In none of the legitimate parables did Jesus ever give specific names. Although the story begins with "there was a certain..." this phrase alone does not indicate that it was a parable.
Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, father Abraham. Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their fathers money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.
Even conceding arguendo Luke 16:19- 31, might be a parable, it really makes no difference. Those who assert that it is a parable are still wrong! Without exception all legitimate parables are based upon REAL ordinary, every day events, NOT myths, legends, or the unknown. Some religious groups, JWs, etc. argue that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is an old Jewish myth or fable, or even a pagan Greek fable. Since Jesus condemned the extra-biblical teachings of the Pharisees, on many occasions, Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, 11:22,24; Luke 6:27, 10:12., etc., he certainly would not violate his own principles and scripture as expressed by the apostle Paul in Titus 1:14
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Some of the above is from Bible.ca and other online sources.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Tertullian - 9. A Treatise On The Soul
Chapter 7 [145-220 Ad]
The Souls Corporeality Demonstrated Out Of The Gospels
So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundant a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abrahams bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.
Cyprian - Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics [200-258 AD]
By his mouth, therefore, and by his words, is every one at once betrayed; and whether he has Christ in his heart, or Antichrist, is discerned in his speaking, according to what the Lord says in His Gospel, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; 703 and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abrahams bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius - A SYNOPSIS OF SOME APOSTOLIC WORDS FROM THE SAME DISCOURSE. [A.D. 260-312].
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection,
these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: I have five brethren;... lest they also come into this place of torment, send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things which are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the tongue, and the finger, and Abrahams bosom, and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and 718 earthly body. If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body; and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself. But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abrahams bosom, before the appearing of the Savior, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Tertullian - 9. A Treatise On The Soul
Chapter 7 [145-220 Ad]
The Souls Corporeality Demonstrated Out Of The Gospels
So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundant a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abrahams bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.
Cyprian - Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics [200-258 AD]
By his mouth, therefore, and by his words, is every one at once betrayed; and whether he has Christ in his heart, or Antichrist, is discerned in his speaking, according to what the Lord says in His Gospel, O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; 703 and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abrahams bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius - A SYNOPSIS OF SOME APOSTOLIC WORDS FROM THE SAME DISCOURSE. [A.D. 260-312].
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection,
these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: I have five brethren;... lest they also come into this place of torment, send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things which are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the tongue, and the finger, and Abrahams bosom, and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and 718 earthly body. If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body; and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself. But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abrahams bosom, before the appearing of the Savior, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
To verify writings of the ECF, click (Here).
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Well we know a person names Lazarus is mentioned in the NT/NC, correct?
John 11:39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone.
Is saying to Him Martha, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a Voice great He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"
Luke 16:22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7461118/#post54553876
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity
John 11:39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone.
Is saying to Him Martha, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a Voice great He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"
Luke 16:22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7461118/#post54553876
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity
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As Philo Beddoe said in a movie one time "I ain't doing it for points"
YouTube - Any Which Way You Can fight
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JudaicChristian
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I think I will go back to bed. I'm not interested in pointless conversation.As Philo Beddoe said in a movie one time "I ain't doing it for points"
YouTube - Any Which Way You Can fight
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Sweet dreams bro....don't let the "sheep" keep ya awakeI think I will go back to bed. I'm not interested in pointless conversation.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7469163/#post54795001
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How much more of the book of Luke, and other NT books, should we throw out because they contradict your false assumptions/presuppositions about what Jesus said? And OBTW the story does NOT say that all rich go to hell and all poor go to heaven.
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Anyone want to discuss Matt 22 and this "parable/story" in relation to that "richman"?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7460817/
Matthew 22 and the "Man" not clothed for wedding feast
Matthew 22:11 And entering yet the King to gaze of the ones reclining, He saw there a Man not in-slipped/endedumenon <1746> cothing/enduma <1742> of wedding-feast
[Zeph 1:8/Luke 16:24]
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Harken oh Israel! to the voice of a Pujol's fan.
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Since I am a swing and hitting coach, I know who you can trust and who you should flee from.
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I do hope he comes back on CF soon
http://www.christianforums.com/t7344018/http://www.christianforums.com/t7344018-3/#post50699056
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Well that rich man was wicked. That's why he was where he was. I assume he also had no regard for the poor and suffering (which is a BIG NO-NO to God)
He don't'a like da meanies that do not harken to the voice of the poor and needy. That's why i believe it was pointed out that the rich man could see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, but could have no access. He was shut out.
He don't'a like da meanies that do not harken to the voice of the poor and needy. That's why i believe it was pointed out that the rich man could see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, but could have no access. He was shut out.
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Lev 25:35 "If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.
Just happen to be teaching on this, this Sunday.
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JudaicChristian
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Where does it say that the rich man was evil and the poor man was righteous?
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