Catholics-Muslims spiritually united?

[lionroar0]

I dont think you are seeing what I am saying.

No the belief in that a creator exists would not have to be jettisoned, BUT the CREATOR THAT THEY THINK DID THE CREATING WOULD . . . and then be repalced by YHWH/Jesus.

Do you see the error now? The particular components of a system cannot be understood apart from the system as a whole. One needs the other . . . sure they share a belief in a creator . . . but it is NOT the same creator, therefore, and concept of creation, tho creation in and of itself is true, for them becomes moot because the god they are believing did the creating IS THE WRONG GOD . . .

So Jesus is one God and He created everything??

 

[simonthezealot]

Original sin does not contain universal depravity. Original sin is having a wounded human nature.

Original sin IS universal, and "the wages of sin is death"...
How can a dead man only have a wounded nature? Therefore depravity is in fact universal.

 

[lionroar0]

Original sin IS universal, and "the wages of sin is death"...
How can a dead man only have a wounded nature? Therefore depravity is in fact universal.

The problem with that is if we are totally depraved then there is nothing worth saving.

We all have a certain dignity, because God created us in His image. In other words there is nothing that we did or can do that can makes us worthy of salvation. The only thing that makes us "worthy" of God sending His son and redeeming us. Is that we are the creations of God and He loved us enough to send His only Son to die for our sins. In essence making us "worthy" of salvation through the passion of Christ.

His death healed original sin. When we sin we wound our human nature. To heal it in Catholicism we go to reconsiliation.(sp?) Where we ask forgiveness for our sins and we do penance to satisfy God's justice.

Also at one point does one earn death? How many sins does one have to commit?

Not that I disagree but again i see the problem knowing(gnosis.)

Depravity/= original sin.

Wounded human nature=Original Sin. In Catholicism.

Maybe is your theology Original Sin= total depravity.

If I understand it right. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation, because there is nothing that we can do that can makes us worthy of salvation. Only Jesus saves and the grace that covers us like the wedding garment at the wedding feast saves.

 

[mont974x4]

Maybe in ur theology. Not in Catholicism.
Depravity/= original sin.

Wounded human nature=Original Sin. In Catholicism.

so, catholics don't need a savior

 

[simonthezealot]

The problem with that is if we are totally depraved then there is nothing worth saving.

Eegads, i didn't even get past the first sentence.
Our salvation based on our worth?
Is this Catholic teaching?

 

[MamaZ]

Salvation is not based on our worth but on the mercy and Grace of God our creator.

 

[boswd]

Simon and Mont did you guys not read his post at all or did you guys just draw up your own fore-gone conclusions and ignore everything?

me thinks the later

Mont - read his First paragraph

Simon - read his last paragraph

hmmm and people here try to argue "intellectual honesty"?

what is that old saying? Practice what ya preach

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon and Mont did you guys not read his post at all or did you guys just draw up your own fore-gone conclusions and ignore everything?

me thinks the later

Mont - read his First paragraph

Simon - read his last paragraph

hmmm and people here try to argue "intellectual honesty"?

what is that old saying? Practice what ya preach

He needs to be clearer in what he is saying and who is talking to in the last paragraph, then i'll respond.

 

[mont974x4]

It is not our fault his posts are contradictory as he backpedals to cover poor theology. So, I ask questions for clarification.

 

[boswd]

Pride a funny thing aint it?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Original sin does not contain universal depravity. Original sin is having a wounded human nature.

Also the scriptures do state that the law is written in the hearts of men. There's no mention of knowing the law and acting accordingly. As the Jews did in the OT.

That's a problem of gnosis entirely with in protestanism. Although it is not a problem with all denoms.

Original sin does not contain universal depravity. Original sin is having a wounded human nature.

Sorry brother, but Pauls depiction of the Adamic curse is both universal and depraved. There is NOT ONE WHO DOES GOOD. Pauls entire arguement is based on this.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So Jesus is one God and He created everything??

Jesus is the second memeber of Trinity who created the entire created order. John 1 and Colossians 2.

 

[mont974x4]

Sorry brother, but Pauls depiction of the Adamic curse is both universal and depraved. There is NOT ONE WHO DOES GOOD. Pauls entire arguement is based on this.

yep!

The whole need for the Gospel, for the Cross, for Christ is based on this.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The problem with that is if we are totally depraved then there is nothing worth saving.

We all have a certain dignity, because God created us in His image. In other words there is nothing that we did or can do that can makes us worthy of salvation. The only thing that makes us "worthy" of God sending His son and redeeming us. Is that we are the creations of God and He loved us enough to send His only Son to die for our sins. In essence making us "worthy" of salvation through the passion of Christ.

His death healed original sin. When we sin we wound our human nature. To heal it in Catholicism we go to reconsiliation.(sp?) Where we ask forgiveness for our sins and we do penance to satisfy God's justice.

Also at one point does one earn death? How many sins does one have to commit?

Not that I disagree but again i see the problem knowing(gnosis.)

Depravity/= original sin.

Wounded human nature=Original Sin. In Catholicism.

Maybe is your theology Original Sin= total depravity.

If I understand it right. There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation, because there is nothing that we can do that can makes us worthy of salvation. Only Jesus saves and the grace that covers us like the wedding garment at the wedding feast saves.

The problem with that is if we are totally depraved then there is nothing worth saving.

This is a problem? There is nothing worth saving brother . . . that is why it is GRACE. The only worth that we have is that which God Himself births in us that glorifies Him.

We all have a certain dignity, because God created us in His image.

This is a common colloquailism that is nothing but false. WE are in ADAM'S fallen image which is why we are BORN AGAIN Into the image of Christ. Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only ones to bear the "image" of God . . . we bear the image of fallen Adam, hence we are "in Adam" and then we are "in Christ"

His death healed original sin.

I thnk you have a fatal misunderstaning of sin. He does not HEAL original sin . . . HE DESTROYS IT AND WE ARE REMADE INTO SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Hence "when He comes we will be like Him as He is" but we dont know what that is.

Sin is not a wound to be healed, as if there is life still there. Sin KILLS we are DEAD in trespasses and sins (eph 2), we are MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST . . . not healing, resurrection.

Also at one point does one earn death? How many sins does one have to commit?

One is born into death . . . the sin is a manifestation of the death within, not sin THEN death. We are not sinners when we sin, or sinners because we sin (as if we werent before we sinned), we sin because we are already sinners.

Depravity/= original sin.

Wounded human nature=Original Sin. In Catholicism.

Maybe is your theology Original Sin= total depravity.

The issue is what do the Scriptures teach. Human nature is fallen, not wounded as if there is something inside that is still good. The Scriptures are clear THERE IS NONE THAT IS GOOD, NOT ONE, ALL HAVE GONE ASTRAY.

There is nothing that we can do to earn salvation, because there is nothing that we can do that can makes us worthy of salvation. Only Jesus saves and the grace that covers us like the wedding garment at the wedding feast saves

Pretty good.

 

[lionroar0]

This is a problem? There is nothing worth saving brother . . . that is why it is GRACE. The only worth that we have is that which God Himself births in us that glorifies Him.



This is a common colloquailism that is nothing but false. WE are in ADAM'S fallen image which is why we are BORN AGAIN Into the image of Christ. Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only ones to bear the "image" of God . . . we bear the image of fallen Adam, hence we are "in Adam" and then we are "in Christ"



I thnk you have a fatal misunderstaning of sin. He does not HEAL original sin . . . HE DESTROYS IT AND WE ARE REMADE INTO SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Hence "when He comes we will be like Him as He is" but we dont know what that is.

Sin is not a wound to be healed, as if there is life still there. Sin KILLS we are DEAD in trespasses and sins (eph 2), we are MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST . . . not healing, resurrection.



One is born into death . . . the sin is a manifestation of the death within, not sin THEN death. We are not sinners when we sin, or sinners because we sin (as if we werent before we sinned), we sin because we are already sinners.



The issue is what do the Scriptures teach. Human nature is fallen, not wounded as if there is something inside that is still good. The Scriptures are clear THERE IS NONE THAT IS GOOD, NOT ONE, ALL HAVE GONE ASTRAY.



Pretty good.

That why it's all or nothing with some ppl. Either one is saved or one isn't and one has to know. Which is impossible to know, because there is only one perfect judge who will judge us.

Again the problem of gnosis.

 

[lionroar0]

yep!

The whole need for the Gospel, for the Cross, for Christ is based on this.

Actually it isn't. Is it is with some ppl, because it's either one is saved or one isn't and one has to know. Which is impossible, because there is only one perfect judge.

 

[lionroar0]

Sorry brother, but Pauls depiction of the Adamic curse is both universal and depraved. There is NOT ONE WHO DOES GOOD. Pauls entire arguement is based on this.

Who was he talking to? Was he talking to everyone or did he have a specific audience? Who is he's argument directed too and why?

 

[lionroar0]

Jesus is the second memeber of Trinity who created the entire created order. John 1 and Colossians 2.

So a muslim would not need to replace God w/ Jesus as Creator. There ya go. He would have to add to his understanding of God. Not to state that there would be no replacement of somethings he understands but he doesn't need to throw out everything he knows and understands.

 

[lionroar0]

Eegads, i didn't even get past the first sentence.
Our salvation based on our worth?
Is this Catholic teaching?

Really? Can u quote me saying that?

 

[lionroar0]

so, catholics don't need a savior

Why not?