Catholics-Muslims spiritually united?

[MrPolo]

3. My brothers, when I think of this spiritual heritage and the value to man and society, in its ability to provide mainly young people an orientation of life, to fill the void left by materialism, to give secure foundation to the same social and legal system, I wonder if it will become urgent, precisely today when Christians and Muslims have entered a new period of history, recognize and develop the spiritual bonds that unite us, so that " defend and promote together as the Council invites us to all men, social justice, moral values, peace and freedom "(Nostra Aetate, ibid.).

You know, Simon, what you quote above is not a quote of Nostra Aetate. I took it for granted you had quoted accurately. Here is all of paragraph 3 in Nostra Aetate:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.​

The "things that spiritually unite" quote you use is from Pope John Paul II's address to the people of Ankara in 1979. I can only find it here in Italian, paragraph 3 is the quote. He follows it with commonality in morals, belief in Creator, claims of procession from Abraham, and a similarity in the creation of man as receiving his spirit from God.

And even though this address doesn't fall under the scope of teaching doctrine or defining something for the Church as a whole, I don't see a single error in Pope John Paul II's comment, unless you want to argue he's too focused on the positive and gives a wrong impression if his words aren't carefully studied.

So I think Simon and Tyndale and the like should clarify outright if any notice of commonality between Christians and Muslims is "from the devil." Can we get a clear statement?

 

[mont974x4]

I'll say it...it is from the devil.

Should we accept the endorsement of demoniacs?

Act 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
Act 16:17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
Act 16:18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. (NASB)

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Muslims also believe that we (Christians and Jews alike) worship Allah, but we haven't realized it yet.
There's also the fact that of the world religions only 3 are monotheistic: Islam, Christianity and Judaism. In that way then yes we're spiritually similar

I thought Muslims considered Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity.


Verses 5:72–75

Those who say, 'God is the Messiah, son of Mary,' have defied God. The Messiah himself said, 'Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.
​

Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.
​

Verse 5:116

When God says, 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, "Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God"?' he will say, 'May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say—if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen
​

 

[simonthezealot]

I'll say it...it is from the devil.

Should we accept the endorsement of demoniacs?

Act 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
Act 16:17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
Act 16:18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. (NASB)

DITTO

 

[missionjw]

maybe

 

[simonthezealot]

You know, Simon, what you quote above is not a quote of Nostra Aetate. I took it for granted you had quoted accurately. Here is all of paragraph 3 in Nostra Aetate:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.​

The "things that spiritually unite" quote you use is from Pope John Paul II's address to the people of Ankara in 1979. I can only find it here in Italian, paragraph 3 is the quote. He follows it with commonality in morals, belief in Creator, claims of procession from Abraham, and a similarity in the creation of man as receiving his spirit from God.

And even though this address doesn't fall under the scope of teaching doctrine or defining something for the Church as a whole, I don't see a single error in Pope John Paul II's comment, unless you want to argue he's too focused on the positive and gives a wrong impression if his words aren't carefully studied.

So I think Simon and Tyndale and the like should clarify outright if any notice of commonality between Christians and Muslims is "from the devil." Can we get a clear statement?

To be clear, if you thought i was quoting the N.A. i did not mean for that, i was reading a writing of b16 and he quoted JP2 on the Muslim-catholic dialogue, and so i was reading it (Spanish-linked on the first post) and i translated it to English since Vatican.va didn't have an English translation...And so others could understand it.
the ibid at the end was a link...

So as i mentioned HE does in fact say spiritually united...
reconocer y desarrollar los vínculos espirituales que nos unen, a fin de que
recognize and develop the spiritual bonds that unite us, so that

 

[boswd]

You know, Simon, what you quote above is not a quote of Nostra Aetate. I took it for granted you had quoted accurately. Here is all of paragraph 3 in Nostra Aetate:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
​

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
​

The "things that spiritually unite" quote you use is from Pope John Paul II's address to the people of Ankara in 1979. I can only find it here in Italian, paragraph 3 is the quote. He follows it with commonality in morals, belief in Creator, claims of procession from Abraham, and a similarity in the creation of man as receiving his spirit from God.

And even though this address doesn't fall under the scope of teaching doctrine or defining something for the Church as a whole, I don't see a single error in Pope John Paul II's comment, unless you want to argue he's too focused on the positive and gives a wrong impression if his words aren't carefully studied.

So I think Simon and Tyndale and the like should clarify outright if any notice of commonality between Christians and Muslims is "from the devil." Can we get a clear statement?

You mean it was purposely misrepresenented?

Why am I not shocked

 

[boswd]

I'll say it...it is from the devil.

Should we accept the endorsement of demoniacs?

Act 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
Act 16:17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
Act 16:18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. (NASB)

What I don't understand is, if it is from Satan then why would they still hold Jesus in high esteem as a Prophet from God?

 

[mont974x4]

even the demons themelves recognize who Christ is, they just do so from a point of open rebellion not submitting to His Lordship. The Muslims may see Christ as a prophet, but He is more than just a prophet He is better than a prophet. He is more than a priest, He is better than a priest. He is more than just another historical figure He is the High Priest, the Lamb that was slain, the King of kings, the Lord of lords and my savior.

 

[boswd]

even the demons themelves recognize who Christ is, they just do so from a point of open rebellion not submitting to His Lordship. The Muslims may see Christ as a prophet, but He is more than just a prophet He is better than a prophet. He is more than a priest, He is better than a priest. He is more than just another historical figure He is the High Priest, the Lamb that was slain, the King of kings, the Lord of lords and my savior.

Oh no I agree with what you are saying but if it was from the Devil wouldn't they look as Christ as an enemy , a "false prophet" instead of a Prophet who they revere?

Demons may recognize Christ but they don't revere and honor him. The Muslims do honor Christ.

So while I disagree 100% with their theology, I find it puzzeling that if it were from Satan then the honor it places on Christ would be baffeling.

 

[mont974x4]

nope, not at all. By legitimizing Christ in a minor way they can appease most people while denying Christ in the majors. It is a useful distraction and a very effective technique.

 

[MrPolo]

So as i mentioned HE does in fact say spiritually united...

Correct, as I just got done quoting from the Popes public address to the people of Ankara in 1979.

Where you and Tyndale err is how you try to squish the phrase "spiritually united" into a different shaped, preconceived mold that Catholicism is from the devil. I think you show that you want the phrase to mean that the Popes think Islam is straight truth.

 

[boswd]

nope, not at all. By legitimizing Christ in a minor way they can appease most people while denying Christ in the majors. It is a useful distraction and a very effective technique.

interesting.

don't know if I agree with it but interesting none the less. To me though that would mean that every Faith, that doesn't recognize Christ as the Messiah would be from Satan.

Personally I think they are an extemely, very extremely misguided Faith.

 

[simonthezealot]

You mean it was purposely misrepresenented?

Why am I not shocked

Get real. I spelled it out perfectly with a link and everything...Because someone misunderstands a posit doesn't mean a positer purposely misrepresented...Why must you always be so accusatory and personal? For real?

 

[boswd]

Correct, as I just got done quoting from the Popes public address to the people of Ankara in 1979.

Where you and Tyndale err is how you try to squish the phrase "spiritually united" into a different shaped, preconceived mold that Catholicism is from the devil. I think you show that you want the phrase to mean that the Popes think Islam is straight truth.

as proven back in a previous post of his when "Deut" replied, "Two sides of the same coin" Simon replied with a ""

I knew his intention all along ( they are very thinly veiled) and didn't buy into his "Im a victum" claim.

But such is another day on GT.

 

[mont974x4]

every false religion is essentially from the devil and they are doomed to Hell.

 

[boswd]

every false religion is essentially from the devil and they are doomed to Hell.

even Hinduism? I find it very hard to believe Satan sent Gandhi

 

[mont974x4]

Gandhi is in Hell unless at some point he rejected his evil and false religion of Hindu and followed Christ.

Just because someone is peaceful and their religion is peaceful does not mean it is of God. In fact, that is a great lie of Satan. The Devil does not have create "evil" and destructive religions for them to be truly evil, all they need to do is lead people away from Christ.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

You know, Simon, what you quote above is not a quote of Nostra Aetate. I took it for granted you had quoted accurately. Here is all of paragraph 3 in Nostra Aetate:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
​

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
​

The "things that spiritually unite" quote you use is from Pope John Paul II's address to the people of Ankara in 1979. I can only find it here in Italian, paragraph 3 is the quote. He follows it with commonality in morals, belief in Creator, claims of procession from Abraham, and a similarity in the creation of man as receiving his spirit from God.

And even though this address doesn't fall under the scope of teaching doctrine or defining something for the Church as a whole, I don't see a single error in Pope John Paul II's comment, unless you want to argue he's too focused on the positive and gives a wrong impression if his words aren't carefully studied.

So I think Simon and Tyndale and the like should clarify outright if any notice of commonality between Christians and Muslims is "from the devil." Can we get a clear statement?

I don't see a single error in Pope John Paul II's comment,

The Pope should not have used the words "spiritual bond" . . . there is a particular theological connotation with the term "spiritual" that, given he is supposed to be the head of the RCC, he should have stayed away from theologically.

If he meant something else . . . fine . . . then it is worded wrong.

 

[simonthezealot]

Correct, as I just got done quoting from the Popes public address to the people of Ankara in 1979.

Where you and Tyndale err is how you try to squish the phrase "spiritually united" into a different shaped, preconceived mold that Catholicism is from the devil. I think you show that you want the phrase to mean that the Popes think Islam is straight truth.

What bond should Catholicism have with Islam Polo?