SPEAKING IN TONGUES: Help make this the DEFINITIVE learning thread

[sunlover1]

But Zeke, bro, that is the point of 14:2, not even the speaker understands himself because OUDEIS MEANS NO ONE. There is no allowance for "the speaker is excluded from none understanding" because Paul states that his understanding is unfruitful, and Paul could not say "no one understands" if the speaker understood, plus, and even MORE TO THE POINT, is that the SPEAKER MUST ALSO PRAY FOR AN INTERPRETATION. If the speaker understood what he himself was saying he would not need to pray for the impartation of the Gift of Interpretation.

AND, unintelligble speech, WHEN INTERPRETED does serve a purpose in the church.

Outside of the church, I can testify, as well as the others here who do speak in tongues, that my level of intimacy with the Lord is bolstered and deepened by the time I spend with HIM in BOTH intelligible prayer AND in unintelliglbe prayer . . . and often unintelligble SINGING. Hence, one who prays in tongues edifies himself.

And Jude usese the same linguisitic expression "praying in the spirit" to state that it builds up faith.


So it does serve purpose.

Some great posts .
I havent followed the thread very well and am quite busy the next few weeks
but wanted to let you know that this is very informative.
sunlover

 

[zeke37]

But Zeke, bro, that is the point of 14:2, not even the speaker understands himself because OUDEIS MEANS NO ONE.

your whole understanding here is flawed Bro.
if no communication happens it is not agood thing.
Paul is chastizing this...not praising it.

and the same word oudeis would be used if we said...
he spoke Hebrew to them but since they were agreek auduience, no one understands...only God would...

and as I keep repeating.....
Paul repeats himself in different ways all through the scripture.
really...over and over again...same subject.

Tere is no allowance for "the speaker is excluded from none understanding" because Paul states that his understanding is unfruitful,

his understanding, means what he already understands about the scripture or pslam... (what is in his mind)

and Paul could not say "no one understands" if the speaker understood,

sure he could,
as I explained above...
if he himself understood but no one of the intended audience did...

we use the same grammar today

plus, and even MORE TO THE POINT, is that the SPEAKER MUST ALSO PRAY FOR AN INTERPRETATION.

no, IF the speaker's tongue (language) is not understood by the audience, then he should pray to God that an interpreter intervene..
a believer that is a multilinguist as Paul was.

If the speaker understood what he himself was saying he would not need to pray for the impartation of the Gift of Interpretation.

but it is about the audiences ability to understand the tongue (language)spoken to them,
the speaker is speaking his (most likely) native tongue to them...
if they don't understand it, then they need a translater/interpreter....
a gifted believer that will help the preacher in spreading this Word of God to those in the audience

I just cannot believe that you (and others)
would trade your ecstatic tongue
for this truth about spreading the Word into all tongues/langauges..

AND, unintelligble speech, WHEN INTERPRETED does serve a purpose in the church.

but the "purpose" is in question by many of us

Outside of the church, I can testify, as well as the others here who do speak in tongues, that my level of intimacy with the Lord is bolstered and deepened by the time I spend with HIM in BOTH intelligible prayer AND in unintelliglbe prayer . . . and often unintelligble SINGING. Hence, one who prays in tongues edifies himself.

well, what Paul is actually teaching,
is that if a speaker speaks in a tongue/language that no one in the audience can understand,
(a foreign language)
then even though he is in the Spirit,
he'd be only edifying himself instead of edifying them in the audience..
he'd be speaking to the air...or
they would not even know when to say AMEN or
they'd sound as barbarians to each other...
what is in his mind would be unfruitful to them...

so then we are taught how to spread the Word through languages/tongues effectively...with interpreters
unless you are like Paul and could speak a bunch of languages....
then you'd be glad you spoke in tongues(languages) more than all...
because it means that he can effectively communicate
with the different tongued audiences (foreign)
and allow them to understand...so as they can even come to God.
even whole nations...

this Word is for all, gentiles included..and all their tongues/languages

And Jude usese the same linguisitic expression "praying in the spirit" to state that it builds up faith.


So it does serve purpose.

praying in the Spirit is not ecstatic/charismatic never understood tongues

 

[Tyndale]

I'm surprised there has been so many pages on this issue.

The bible clearly states that anyone speaking in tongues to other believers (inside a church building or outside it) they need to provide an entrepreneur.

“In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (14:19).

 

[sunlover1]

I'm surprised there has been so many pages on this issue.

The bible clearly states that anyone speaking in tongues to other believers (inside a church building or outside it) they need to provide an entrepreneur.

“In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (14:19).

Hi !
I'm not surprised that there have been so many pages on this subject.


But yeah, that's how I understood that too... if you're in church speaking (outloud) in
tongues, there needs to be an interpretation...

that's how I read it.. but i often find out that i was reading something way wrong! lol.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I'm surprised there has been so many pages on this issue.

The bible clearly states that anyone speaking in tongues to other believers (inside a church building or outside it) they need to provide an entrepreneur.

“In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue” (14:19).

Uh- I presume you mean interpreter.

And one point made earlier: the Bible tells us on several occasions to test the spirits- so if you have two independent interpreters, you should get the same interpretation, right?

So if I record the message of someone who claims to be speaking in tongues, and have it "interpreted" by two or more different independent interpreters, I should get the same translated message, right?

Or I could do another test- record someone claiming to be speaking in tongues- and then ask an interpreter to tell me what was said while, without their knowledge, recording the answer. Then have them listen to the same tongue speaking a month later and see if they come up with the same answer.


.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Those who issued untrue prophecies (false prophets) were killed in the Old Testament days. What did they do to those who failed the interpretation test?

.

 

[ARBITER01]

I might have reason to believe you if those who do it today, understood themselves...
but that is not the case..
unintelligible languages, without learning, serves no purpose

Learned languages are not a gift from GOD, nor does the bible confirm such a notion, hence the need for the "gift" of interpretation.

A gift of The Holy Spirit is placed within our spirit for the purposes of GOD, be it personal edification, corporate edification, or to HIS glory through us.

The true gifts of GOD are completely separate and distinct from human talents, they have never been the same.

 

[ARBITER01]

And one point made earlier: the Bible tells us on several occasions to test the spirits- so if you have two independent interpreters, you should get the same interpretation, right?

If that is so, point out where Paul taught such a thing.

You have a bible, put it to use here for us.

 

[zeke37]

Learned languages are not a gift from GOD, nor does the bible confirm such a notion, hence the need for the "gift" of interpretation.

Hello.....gifted interpreters are needed in the church body even today, as it was all those years ago...
Paul was just such a gifted interpretist...
he used his God given abilities and gifts to further the church into (today) all languages/tongues...
so no one is exempt. all peoples/all nations/all tongues have a chance to come to God (regardless of language barriers) through these rules in1Cor14
and that beats the pants off of charismatic ecstatic utterances.

A gift of The Holy Spirit is placed within our spirit for the purposes of GOD, be it personal edification, corporate edification, or to HIS glory through us.

there is love, and there is Godly love...
there are interpreters of languages, and there are gifted interpreters of languages who use their abilities to further the Gospel into all tongues/languages

The true gifts of GOD are completely separate and distinct from human talents, they have never been the same.

they are all based on the same..only used in God's Work....
you don't have to be a Christian to have charity, or love, or wisdom, or knowledge, or faith, or be a healer
but when your gifts are used to spread the Word of God,
and to help the Body, then that is awsome...and is a recognizable gift of God


8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

diversities of langauges....

 

[zeke37]

Uh- I presume you mean interpreter.

And one point made earlier: the Bible tells us on several occasions to test the spirits- so if you have two independent interpreters, you should get the same interpretation, right?

So if I record the message of someone who claims to be speaking in tongues, and have it "interpreted" by two or more different independent interpreters, I should get the same translated message, right?

Or I could do another test- record someone claiming to be speaking in tongues- and then ask an interpreter to tell me what was said while, without their knowledge, recording the answer. Then have them listen to the same tongue speaking a month later and see if they come up with the same answer.

that would be humerous...funny...and revealing all at the same time...

 

[ARBITER01]

Hello.....gifted interpreters are needed in the church body even today, as it was all those years ago...
Paul was just such a gifted interpretist...
he used his God given abilities and gifts to further the church into (today) all languages/tongues...
so no one is exempt. all peoples/all nations/all tongues have a chance to come to God (regardless of language barriers) through these rules in1Cor14
and that beats the pants off of charismatic ecstatic utterances.



there is love, and there is Godly love...
there are interpreters of languages, and there are gifted interpreters of languages who use their abilities to further the Gospel into all tongues/languages


they are all based on the same..only used in God's Work....
you don't have to be a Christian to have charity, or love, or wisdom, or knowledge, or faith, or be a healer
but when your gifts are used to spread the Word of God,
and to help the Body, then that is awsome...and is a recognizable gift of God


8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

diversities of langauges....

Sorry zeke, as mat already pointed out, "no one understands" so it is not a known language someone can learn. Utterances by The Holy Spirit require interpretation.

Scripture is very clear about this.

 

[zeke37]

Mat was rebutted by Paul's repetition of the same subject matter over and over again...if I spoke hebrew to a greek audience, no one would understand

 

[ARBITER01]

Mat was rebutted by Paul's repetition of the same subject matter over and over again...if I spoke hebrew to a greek audience, no one would understand

Sorry friend, but your opinions never refuted the Greek he presented. "No one understands" just like the Greek says.

Paul is not a liar. The examples within the pages of our bible only confirm what Paul taught about the subject. For anyone to understand a tongues message, it has to be interpreted by another, just like Paul taught,..

1Co 14:26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Tongues do not stand on their own in church, and trying to make scripture out to where they do somehow, is a false teaching.

 

[zeke37]

Sorry friend, but your opinions never refuted the Greek he presented. "No one understands" just like the Greek says.

I don't / didn't say my opinions in this case Brother...
and the same applies in most all languages, even English
Paul repeats the same teaching over and over again, (which I will agin try to show you)



if you spoke Hebrew scriptures and Psalms to a Greek audience,
then you'd be speaking to the wind...

...the speaker and the audience would be as barbarians to each other...
because the crowd listening cannot understand the speaker's tongue/language....

...then what do we do instead of speaking stuff that they won't understand,???
we pray / sing with BOTH Spirit and understanding at the same time...

if you speak another langauge than the audience, then have an interpreter.....pray for one...
remember the settnig...a long time ago...multilingual society
spreading the Word into other languages...
that was a big part of Paul's mission...and ours

why? to impart knowledge and understanding...
to make the preachers words PROPHESY/TRUTH/UNDERSTOOD...to them listening
so they (who speak another language than the speaker)
can understand and come to God


because if you didn't do so, and spoke in your native tongue
(in this case, we'll say Hebrew) and without an interpreter
then those in the room (who spoke, let's say Greek)
would not even know when to say AMEN....

what you spoke would be mysterious to them...

instead of edifying the crowd with understanding words of scripture,
interpreted into their tongue,
you'd only be edifying yourself....
only God would understand your words...and not the crowd..
and the point is to edify them with scripture/prayer/pslams...

if you speak a foreign/unknown tongue to them, it is useless...

because they do not understand the speakers words

Paul would rather speak 5 words of scripture in Greek, to a Greek audience,
than 1000 words of the Hebrew scriptures, in Hebrew...to a greek audience



this is breaking a HUGE tradition.......

and is why Paul was glad that he spoke a diveristy of languages,
a gift of God...he wished we all did as well....


for it is written that With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

...for if asound is uncertain, who shall prepare himself for battle?...

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Paul is not a liar. The examples within the pages of our bible only confirm what Paul taught about the subject. For anyone to understand a tongues message, it has to be interpreted by another, just like Paul taught,..

Tongues do not stand on their own in church, and trying to make scripture out to where they do somehow, is a false teaching.

i feel sorry for u bro. pray intelligently about it.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Mat was rebutted by Paul's repetition of the same subject matter over and over again...if I spoke hebrew to a greek audience, no one would understand

But Zeke you fail to see that Pauls description of NO ONE, FIRST, colors any understanding of the latter statements. THAT IS THE WAY THAT GREEK WORKS.

You do not say: oh the first statement doesnt jive with what I think the rest says . . . that is the INVERSE to the way that Greek works.

Any subsequent concept that does not take the FIRST statement into its logical in meaning IS IN ERROR. IF any given interpretation of a subsequent verse does not deal appropriately with the FIRST statement, then that interpretation is WRONG. THAT IS GREEK.

You have FAILED to work NO ONE into your concepts within the text.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

So if I record the message of someone who claims to be speaking in tongues, and have it "interpreted" by two or more different independent interpreters, I should get the same translated message, right?

If that is so, point out where Paul taught such a thing.

You have a bible, put it to use here for us.

Perhaps you misunderstood: I am asking a question here; asking if my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14 in the Bible is correct.


26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret..

I also think it is important to remember that God warns us of false teachings and instructs us to test the spirits:

Mark 16

16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

So those who are truly blessed with the spirit will "pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well".

These are some pretty definitive tests- why would "speaking in tongues"- mentioned in the same verses- not be subject to a similar rigorous test? I have no doubt that the Apostles were able to do all these things- and I believe some Christians are likely able to do this today. But many who claim to do so are not willing to put their gifts to the acid test- which makes me question whether they really do have those gifts.
.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Perhaps you misunderstood: I am asking a question here; asking if my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14 in the Bible is correct.


26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret..

I also think it is important to remember that God warns us of false teachings and instructs us to test the spirits:

Mark 16

16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

So those who are truly blessed with the spirit will "pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well".

These are some pretty definitive tests- why would "speaking in tongues"- mentioned in the same verses- not be subject to a similar rigorous test? I have no doubt that the Apostles were able to do all these things- and I believe some Christians are likely able to do this today. But many who claim to do so are not willing to put their gifts to the acid test- which makes me question whether they really do have those gifts.
.

These are some pretty definitive tests- why would "speaking in tongues"- mentioned in the same verses- not be subject to a similar rigorous test? I have no doubt that the Apostles were able to do all these things- and I believe some Christians are likely able to do this today. But many who claim to do so are not willing to put their gifts to the acid test- which makes me question whether they really do have those gifts.

Hmmm

I dont see anything in Mark 16 about testing these things . . .

 

[ARBITER01]

Perhaps you misunderstood: I am asking a question here; asking if my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14 in the Bible is correct.


26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret..

I also think it is important to remember that God warns us of false teachings and instructs us to test the spirits:

Mark 16

16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

So those who are truly blessed with the spirit will "pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well".

These are some pretty definitive tests- why would "speaking in tongues"- mentioned in the same verses- not be subject to a similar rigorous test? I have no doubt that the Apostles were able to do all these things- and I believe some Christians are likely able to do this today. But many who claim to do so are not willing to put their gifts to the acid test- which makes me question whether they really do have those gifts.
.

No, this was your statement,..

And one point made earlier: the Bible tells us on several occasions to test the spirits- so if you have two independent interpreters, you should get the same interpretation, right?

I asked you to show me in the bible where it states an interpretation must always be the same, as you just said here.

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't / didn't say my opinions in this case Brother...
and the same applies in most all languages, even English
Paul repeats the same teaching over and over again, (which I will agin try to show you)



if you spoke Hebrew scriptures and Psalms to a Greek audience,
then you'd be speaking to the wind...

...the speaker and the audience would be as barbarians to each other...
because the crowd listening cannot understand the speaker's tongue/language....

...then what do we do instead of speaking stuff that they won't understand,???
we pray / sing with BOTH Spirit and understanding at the same time...

if you speak another langauge than the audience, then have an interpreter.....pray for one...
remember the settnig...a long time ago...multilingual society
spreading the Word into other languages...
that was a big part of Paul's mission...and ours

why? to impart knowledge and understanding...
to make the preachers words PROPHESY/TRUTH/UNDERSTOOD...to them listening
so they (who speak another language than the speaker)
can understand and come to God


because if you didn't do so, and spoke in your native tongue
(in this case, we'll say Hebrew) and without an interpreter
then those in the room (who spoke, let's say Greek)
would not even know when to say AMEN....

what you spoke would be mysterious to them...

instead of edifying the crowd with understanding words of scripture,
interpreted into their tongue,
you'd only be edifying yourself....
only God would understand your words...and not the crowd..
and the point is to edify them with scripture/prayer/pslams...

if you speak a foreign/unknown tongue to them, it is useless...

because they do not understand the speakers words

Paul would rather speak 5 words of scripture in Greek, to a Greek audience,
than 1000 words of the Hebrew scriptures, in Hebrew...to a greek audience



this is breaking a HUGE tradition.......

and is why Paul was glad that he spoke a diveristy of languages,
a gift of God...he wished we all did as well....


for it is written that With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

...for if asound is uncertain, who shall prepare himself for battle?...

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


i feel sorry for u bro. pray intelligently about it.

Sorry zeke, the greek is quite easy for anyone to understand in this section. It says that no one understand a tongues utterance, and that is exactly what it means.

There is nothing more to add to that. Regurgitating your opinion on these matters in an attempt to sidestep Paul's teaching on it, only shows your anger against this gift.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

sadly that's not the case here in America, Alot of the 'hardcore" pentacostals..... it's just a zoo. People running around, people off in other areas hootin and hollerin. It's a madhouse.

go to youtube and punch in speaking in tongues and what you see, tell me if you think that is what Paul was talking about.
I would say in most cases it's a huge NO.

No interpretation, no edifying just abusing of the gifts, or self induced frenzies.

I do believe the gift is still with us today, but not in most cases you see what going on in these zoo's.

It more of a "Look at ME" "I" have the Holy Spirit. "I" MUST BE SAVED.

If people are running around speaking in tongues in front of others, then I can understand that many would think it is a "zoo", because that is what it is. If we look carefully at Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, tongues is a private gift practiced before God in the personal place of prayer where only God can hear and understand it. When a person speaks in tongues before God in secret, believing that what he is speaking God understands, then I have no doubt that it is genuine, because it is generated by the person's faith, which God honours.

But I agree with many who see Pentecostal meetings awash with people speaking in tongues all over the place. I really wonder if this is genuine and not a show of the flesh?

The gift of tongues is not necessary for salvation, but I believe it is a very effective tool for private intercession.

If a person is using tongues as a "look at me" thing, then that person needs to learn more about walking with Christ in the Spirit and not in the flesh in his own self-righteousness (which, incidentally, are filthy rags to God).