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what makes a "bishop" better than a "priest"?

Montalban

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:confused: I did not ignore.. When I got back to the thread I did not go back and read. These threads move pretty fast and I am not on here enough to completely keep up with them.

You didn't answer my questions. You gave answers that did not address what I asked.

e.g. You stated that someone was chosen to be an Apostle was because they had been a witness

I said Mary had been a witness - I asked why wasn't she then chosen?

You said "Mary wasn't chosen" completely missing the point you first made. Stating she wasn't chosen does not answer why she was not chosen.
 
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MamaZ

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You didn't answer my questions. You gave answers that did not address what I asked.

e.g. You stated that someone was chosen to be an Apostle was because they had been a witness

I said Mary had been a witness - I asked why wasn't she then chosen?

You said "Mary wasn't chosen" completely missing the point you first made. Stating she wasn't chosen does not answer why she was not chosen.
She was not chosen because Jesus chose whom He Chose. Therefore Apostles were to be eye witnesses to the Lord. Does not mean that any eye witness was an Apostle. It means those to Whom Jesus Chose were eye witnesses.
 
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Tyndale

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There is only one Priest and his name is Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7 tells us that there is no need for man to ordain Priests any more because the law makes nothing perfect. Christ is the only Priest now.

As for Apostiles, there are only 12 Apostiles and their names are written in the foundation of the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem. Rev 21
 
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Supreme

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There is only one Priest and his name is Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7 tells us that there is no need for man to ordain Priests any more because the law makes nothing perfect. Christ is the only Priest now.

As for Apostiles, there are only 12 Apostiles and their names are written in the foundation of the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem. Rev 21

I agree. The whole hierarchal system is pretty much redundant. Christ is the head of the Church, and one He can properly guide people.
 
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Montalban

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She was not chosen because Jesus chose whom He Chose. Therefore Apostles were to be eye witnesses to the Lord.
You just contradicted yourself

First you say Jesus chose whom he chose. Then he chose them because they were eyewitnesses
Does not mean that any eye witness was an Apostle. It means those to Whom Jesus Chose were eye witnesses.

Why 12?

Wait..., because he did.

At least you're consistant; I had hoped to one day get a reason for anything that you believe in other than a just-so statement, or circular reasoning.
 
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Montalban

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There is only one Priest and his name is Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7 tells us that there is no need for man to ordain Priests any more because the law makes nothing perfect. Christ is the only Priest now.

As for Apostiles, there are only 12 Apostiles and their names are written in the foundation of the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem. Rev 21

And yet there's Paul talking about leaders of the church...

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Look at "Acts of the Apostles" they organised people and they commanded obedience - they pooled money and when people held out they were struck down dead.
 
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MamaZ

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You just contradicted yourself

First you say Jesus chose whom he chose. Then he chose them because they were eyewitnesses
That is not what I said. :) I said that those to whom He chose were eye witnesses to Him.. I did not say that He chose them because they were eye witnesses to Him.


I believe because of the 12 tribes of Isreal. Then we have Paul who was an Apostle to the gentiles. :)

Wait..., because he did.

At least you're consistant; I had hoped to one day get a reason for anything that you believe in other than a just-so statement, or circular reasoning.
If you would quit twisitng what I have said it may not be circular..
 
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Polycarp1

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If you would quit twisitng what I have said it may not be circular..

With all due respect, MamaZ, you are not making yourself clear. It may be obvious to you, but it sounds to others like you're either stating a tautology ("God chose whom He chose. End of story.") or noting the divine inscrutability ("God didn't say why he chose the Twelve, and not Mary. But that's what Scripture says, and going beyond Scripture is idle speculation.") So if you meant something different, kindly spell it out, because many of us are not seeing whatevr it is you're seeing in it. Different perpectives having different insights, and all that. Thanks.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Has it been mentioned that the priesthood/presbyter was the newest of the main 3? IN the beginning there were only Bisphops and Deacons.

The more you know. :)
Perhaps we should study more on Melchizedek instead of discussing Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Deacons, Elders, Priests etc.
After all, that is the order that our Lord is of and us also I would think :)

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24
Melchizedek Royan Priesthood

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Perhaps we should study more on Melchizedek instead of discussing Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Deacons, Elders, Priests etc.
After all, that is the order that our Lord is of and us also I would think :)

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24
Melchizedek Royan Priesthood

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,

Um... I thought we were. What other order would the true clery of Christ be?

Did someone mention Popes and Cardnials? I missed it.

Forgive me...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Um... I thought we were. What other order would the true clery of Christ be?

Did someone mention Popes and Cardnials? I missed it.

Forgive me...
Don't know.
But Cardinals are included in the RCC Heirarchy, tho perhaps they symbolize "Elders"?

Young) Matthew 15:2 `Wherefore do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders/presbuterwn <4245>? for they do not wash their hands when they may eat bread.'

Reve 19:4 And fall the elders/presbuteroi <4245>, the twenty four and the four living-ones
and they worship to the God, to the One sitting upon the throne saying "amen allelouia".
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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There is only one Priest and his name is Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7 tells us that there is no need for man to ordain Priests any more because the law makes nothing perfect. Christ is the only Priest now.

As for Apostiles, there are only 12 Apostiles and their names are written in the foundation of the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem. Rev 21

The words 'presbyteros' and 'episkopos' are used to describe other men in the NT as well. They are not references to Christ the Lord, but to men that have been left with a charge and authority over a community.


Surely we have no other high priest than Christ God! (There is no 'one' that rules above all bishops other than Christ)

The epistle to the Hebrews speaks against the order of the Levite and for the order of Melchisedec, of which the Christian order springs.

Hbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

None of this means we were left without order.

The question should be... what has happened to that order?

Forgive me...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The words 'presbyteros' and 'episkopos' are used to describe other men in the NT as well. They are not references to Christ the Lord, but to men that have been left with a charge and authority over a community.


The epistle to the Hebrews speaks against the order of the Levite and for the order of Melchisedec, of which the Christian order springs.

Hbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Forgive me...
:thumbsup:
I am currently working on Hebrew chapter 7 on my Hebrews thread. Fascinating I say!!! :blush:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-3/#post54380621
Hebrew 7:1

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-2/#post54498783
Hebrew 7:12
 
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M

MamaZ

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With all due respect, MamaZ, you are not making yourself clear. It may be obvious to you, but it sounds to others like you're either stating a tautology ("God chose whom He chose. End of story.") or noting the divine inscrutability ("God didn't say why he chose the Twelve, and not Mary. But that's what Scripture says, and going beyond Scripture is idle speculation.") So if you meant something different, kindly spell it out, because many of us are not seeing whatevr it is you're seeing in it. Different perpectives having different insights, and all that. Thanks.
You tell me why He chose the 12 He chose then please.. Scripture does not tell us why He chose who He did.. I cannot guess or speculate as to why and have it as sound truth but an opinion..
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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Perhaps we should study more on Melchizedek instead of discussing Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Deacons, Elders, Priests etc.
After all, that is the order that our Lord is of and us also I would think :)

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24
Melchizedek Royan Priesthood

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,

True I was just referring to our church heirarchy. sorry.
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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I don't think the Bishop is more important persay.

Here is what we in the CCC deems of it's Bishops and Priests/Ministers, and I threw Deacons in there for good measure....A brief definition of what the Sacrament of Holy Orders is all about is needed as well, forgive me if that's already been posted.

It is the conviction of the Celtic Church that Christ is the only priest, pastor and teacher of the Christian Church. He alone guides and rules his people. He alone forgives sins and offers communion with God, his Father.
It is also the Celtic Church conviction that Christ has not abandoned his people, but that he remains with his Church as its living and unique head. Christ remains present and active in the Church through his Holy Spirit.
The sacrament of holy orders in the Christian Church is the objective guarantee of the perpetual presence of Christ with his people. The bishops, priests, and deacons of the Church have no other function or service than to manifest the presence and action of Christ to his people. In this sense, the clergy do not act in behalf of Christ or instead of Christ as though he himself were absent. They are neither vicars of Christ, nor substitutes for Christ nor representatives of Christ.
Christ is present now, always, and forever in his Church. The sacramental ministry of the Church -- the bishops, ministers, and deacons -- receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to manifest Christ in the Spirit to men. Thus, through his chosen ministers, Christ exercises and realizes his unique and exclusive function as priest, perpetually offering himself as the perfect sacrifice to the Father on behalf of his human brothers and sisters. Through his ministers in the Church, Christ also acts as teacher, himself proclaiming the divine words of the Father to men. He acts as the good shepherd, the one pastor who guides his flock. He acts as the forgiver and healer, remitting sins and curing the ills of metaphysical, mental and spiritual. He acts as bishop, overseeing the community which he has gathered for himself (1 Pet 2:25). He acts as deacon (which means servant or minister) for he alone is the suffering servant of the Father who has come "not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28).
The sacrament of holy orders takes its name from the fact that the bishops, ministers and deacons give order to the Church. They guarantee the continuity and unity of the Church from age to age and from place to place from the time of Christ and the apostles until the establishment of God's Kingdom in eternity. As the apostles received the special gift of God to go forth and to make Christ present to men in all of the manifold aspects of his person and work, so the clergy of the Church receive the gift of God's Spirit to maintain and to manifest Christ's presence and action in the churches.
It is the doctrine of the Church that the clergy must strive to fulfill the grace given to them with the gift of the "laying on of hands" in the most perfect way possible. But it is also the doctrine of the Church that the reality and effectiveness of the sacraments of the Church ministered by the clergy do not depend upon the personal virtue of the ministers, but upon the presence of Christ who acts in his Church by the Holy Spirit.
Bishops
The bishops are the leading members of the clergy in the sense that they have the responsibility and the service of maintaining the unity of the Church throughout the world by insuring the truth and unity of the faith. and practice of their respective churches with all of the others. Thus, the bishops represent their particular churches or dioceses to the other churches or dioceses, just as they represent the Universal Church to their own particular ministers, deacons, and people.
In the Celtic Church Church, the office of bishop is the leading Church ministry. The word bishop (episkopos, in Greek) means overseer. Each of the bishops has exactly the same service to perform. No bishop is "over any other bishop in the Church and, indeed, the bishop himself is not "over" his church, hut is himself within and of the Church as one of its members. He is the one who is responsible and answerable before God and man for the life of his particular church community.
All bishops of the Celtic Communion of Christ are bishops of a particular geographical territory called a diocese. They usually receive their title from the main city in the territory. A bishop of the chief city of a region which has within it other bishops with their own particular dioceses is usually called the metropolitan or archbishop. "Metropolitan" merely means "bishop of the metropolis," the main city. The title of archbishop means "leading bishop" of an area, but sometimes the title is given to certain bishops for personal or honorary reasons. The title of patriarch belongs to the bishop of the capitol city of a region containing other metropolitanates and dioceses. Today this usually means a national church.
When the bishops of an area meet in council, as they must do periodically according to Church Law, the metropolitan presides; or in the case of a large territory or national church, the patriarch. Once again, however, it must be clearly understood that sacramentally all bishops are identical and equal. None is "higher" than the others as far as their sacramental position is concerned; none is "over" the others as far as their life in the Church is concerned.
In purely human and practical matters, the metropolitans and patriarchs guide and preside over areas greater than their own particular dioceses, but they are not superior or more powerful as far as their bishop's office is concerned. No bishop in Celtic Churchy is considered infallible. None has any "powers" over or apart from his priests, deacons and people or the other bishops. All are servants of Christ and the Church. Bishops may be single or married.
Ministers
The ministers of the Church, also called presbyters, pastors, or priests, are those who assist the bishop in his work. In the present day, the ministers normally exercise the function of pastors of the local churches or parishes, a function which was normally done by the bishops in early times. The priests head the local congregations of Christians. They preside at the celebration of the liturgy. They teach, preach, counsel and exercise the ministries of forgiveness and healing,

Deacons/Deaconesses
The deacons of the Church originally assisted the bishops in good deeds and works of charity. In recent centuries the diaconate has become almost exclusively a liturgical function in which the deacons assist at the celebration of the divine liturgy and other Church services. In more recent times, the diaconate has been extended to many as a permanent position for full or part time service to the work of the Church. In the office of deacon, the men/women may now not only assist the priest and bishop in liturgical services, but will often head educational programs and youth groups, do hospital visitation and missionary work and conduct projects of social welfare. In these cases the deacons are not necessarily taken from the professional schools of theology, but are chosen directly from the local parish community. The Church's rules about marriage are the same for the deacons as they are for the ministers.
In addition to the bishops, ministers and deacons who comprise the central ordained ministries in the Church, the Celtic Church tradition also has special blessings for the particular ministries of sub-deacons and readers. In the early church there were also special prayers and blessings for other Church ministries such as exorcists, doorkeepers, deaconesses, and lay-preachers; the latter still function in some churches today. Also in most churches today there are special ceremonies of blessing and installation of lay workers in the Church such as members of the parish council, catechists, choir singers and leaders of various organizations and projects.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is the conviction of the Celtic Church that Christ is the only priest, pastor and teacher of the Christian Church.
And also the Chief-Shepherd :wave:

Matt 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, not being inferior-most are in the ones-leading of Judea.
For out of thee shall be going-forth One-leading, who-any shall be shepherding/poimanei <4165> (5692) the People of Me, Israel.
[Micah 5:2/1 Peter 5:4/Revelation 12:5]

1Peter 5:4 And of being made manifest the Chief-Shepherd/arci-poimenoV <750>, ye shall be being requitted the unfading crown of the glory

Reve 19:15 And out of the mouth of Him is going forth a sword keen, that in it He should be *smiting the nations
and He shall be shepherding/poimanei <4165> (5692) them in rod iron.
And He is treading the winepress of the wine of the fury [*and] of the wrath of the God the Almighty
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I don't think the Bishop is more important persay.

Here is what we in the CCC deems of it's Bishops and Priests/Ministers, and I threw Deacons in there for good measure....A brief definition of what the Sacrament of Holy Orders is all about is needed as well, forgive me if that's already been posted.

It is the conviction of the Celtic Church that Christ is the only priest, pastor and teacher of the Christian Church. He alone guides and rules his people. He alone forgives sins and offers communion with God, his Father.
It is also the Celtic Church conviction that Christ has not abandoned his people, but that he remains with his Church as its living and unique head. Christ remains present and active in the Church through his Holy Spirit.
The sacrament of holy orders in the Christian Church is the objective guarantee of the perpetual presence of Christ with his people. The bishops, priests, and deacons of the Church have no other function or service than to manifest the presence and action of Christ to his people. In this sense, the clergy do not act in behalf of Christ or instead of Christ as though he himself were absent. They are neither vicars of Christ, nor substitutes for Christ nor representatives of Christ.
Christ is present now, always, and forever in his Church. The sacramental ministry of the Church -- the bishops, ministers, and deacons -- receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to manifest Christ in the Spirit to men. Thus, through his chosen ministers, Christ exercises and realizes his unique and exclusive function as priest, perpetually offering himself as the perfect sacrifice to the Father on behalf of his human brothers and sisters. Through his ministers in the Church, Christ also acts as teacher, himself proclaiming the divine words of the Father to men. He acts as the good shepherd, the one pastor who guides his flock. He acts as the forgiver and healer, remitting sins and curing the ills of metaphysical, mental and spiritual. He acts as bishop, overseeing the community which he has gathered for himself (1 Pet 2:25). He acts as deacon (which means servant or minister) for he alone is the suffering servant of the Father who has come "not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28).
The sacrament of holy orders takes its name from the fact that the bishops, ministers and deacons give order to the Church. They guarantee the continuity and unity of the Church from age to age and from place to place from the time of Christ and the apostles until the establishment of God's Kingdom in eternity. As the apostles received the special gift of God to go forth and to make Christ present to men in all of the manifold aspects of his person and work, so the clergy of the Church receive the gift of God's Spirit to maintain and to manifest Christ's presence and action in the churches.
It is the doctrine of the Church that the clergy must strive to fulfill the grace given to them with the gift of the "laying on of hands" in the most perfect way possible. But it is also the doctrine of the Church that the reality and effectiveness of the sacraments of the Church ministered by the clergy do not depend upon the personal virtue of the ministers, but upon the presence of Christ who acts in his Church by the Holy Spirit.
Bishops
The bishops are the leading members of the clergy in the sense that they have the responsibility and the service of maintaining the unity of the Church throughout the world by insuring the truth and unity of the faith. and practice of their respective churches with all of the others. Thus, the bishops represent their particular churches or dioceses to the other churches or dioceses, just as they represent the Universal Church to their own particular ministers, deacons, and people.
In the Celtic Church Church, the office of bishop is the leading Church ministry. The word bishop (episkopos, in Greek) means overseer. Each of the bishops has exactly the same service to perform. No bishop is "over any other bishop in the Church and, indeed, the bishop himself is not "over" his church, hut is himself within and of the Church as one of its members. He is the one who is responsible and answerable before God and man for the life of his particular church community.
All bishops of the Celtic Communion of Christ are bishops of a particular geographical territory called a diocese. They usually receive their title from the main city in the territory. A bishop of the chief city of a region which has within it other bishops with their own particular dioceses is usually called the metropolitan or archbishop. "Metropolitan" merely means "bishop of the metropolis," the main city. The title of archbishop means "leading bishop" of an area, but sometimes the title is given to certain bishops for personal or honorary reasons. The title of patriarch belongs to the bishop of the capitol city of a region containing other metropolitanates and dioceses. Today this usually means a national church.
When the bishops of an area meet in council, as they must do periodically according to Church Law, the metropolitan presides; or in the case of a large territory or national church, the patriarch. Once again, however, it must be clearly understood that sacramentally all bishops are identical and equal. None is "higher" than the others as far as their sacramental position is concerned; none is "over" the others as far as their life in the Church is concerned.
In purely human and practical matters, the metropolitans and patriarchs guide and preside over areas greater than their own particular dioceses, but they are not superior or more powerful as far as their bishop's office is concerned. No bishop in Celtic Churchy is considered infallible. None has any "powers" over or apart from his priests, deacons and people or the other bishops. All are servants of Christ and the Church. Bishops may be single or married.
Ministers
The ministers of the Church, also called presbyters, pastors, or priests, are those who assist the bishop in his work. In the present day, the ministers normally exercise the function of pastors of the local churches or parishes, a function which was normally done by the bishops in early times. The priests head the local congregations of Christians. They preside at the celebration of the liturgy. They teach, preach, counsel and exercise the ministries of forgiveness and healing,

Deacons/Deaconesses
The deacons of the Church originally assisted the bishops in good deeds and works of charity. In recent centuries the diaconate has become almost exclusively a liturgical function in which the deacons assist at the celebration of the divine liturgy and other Church services. In more recent times, the diaconate has been extended to many as a permanent position for full or part time service to the work of the Church. In the office of deacon, the men/women may now not only assist the priest and bishop in liturgical services, but will often head educational programs and youth groups, do hospital visitation and missionary work and conduct projects of social welfare. In these cases the deacons are not necessarily taken from the professional schools of theology, but are chosen directly from the local parish community. The Church's rules about marriage are the same for the deacons as they are for the ministers.
In addition to the bishops, ministers and deacons who comprise the central ordained ministries in the Church, the Celtic Church tradition also has special blessings for the particular ministries of sub-deacons and readers. In the early church there were also special prayers and blessings for other Church ministries such as exorcists, doorkeepers, deaconesses, and lay-preachers; the latter still function in some churches today. Also in most churches today there are special ceremonies of blessing and installation of lay workers in the Church such as members of the parish council, catechists, choir singers and leaders of various organizations and projects.


Well written. :thumbsup:

As a side note I might mention that deaconesses duties were primarily to serve women being baptised. The 'gnostics' of the early era used deaconesses at the Altar.

Forgive me...
 
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