Evolutionary debate

Evolution

  • Belive in evolution

  • Don't belive in evolution


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Feb 27, 2010
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1. Yes he has. You can look everything up in his papers. He made even more information available on his website.

You clearly have not read into this very well.

Lenski has hidden tuns of data from the public on his apparent experiments. You don't have to look far, to find in Lenski's own words:

In three places in our paper, we did say 'data not shown', which is common in scientific papers.

Yet it was revealded far more than in only three places. I would not call that common in scientific papers, not showing data clearly shows how much a decietful man Lenski is.

The only one's who questioned it were Conservapedia, who made themselves the laughing stock of the scientific community and Western society at large by demanding that Lenski send them bacterial specimens and demonstrating that they had not the faintest clue how to read a scientific study.

Lenski refused everyone physical evidence of his claims (therefore how can anything he said be verified?), his paper was then revealed to have numerous errors, and many places where it stated 'data not shown'.

And yet, he has exceeded all ethical standards by going and posting even more information about his methods on his website, and making his study free for everyone to download from the PNAS, just to prove his integrity.

You are aware PNAS are 93% atheist? Creationists arn't interested in their nonsense.
 
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Nostromo

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You haven't even read the paper, have you?

It's available here, number 180. You can look through it and find exactly 3 instances of "data not shown". In each case the missing data has been uploaded here.

He also said anyone could have samples providing they could show they were equipped to handle it properly (This is E. coli after all). Why don't you email him and ask instead of making accusations?
 
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laconicstudent

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You clearly have not read into this very well.

Lenski has hidden tuns of data from the public on his apparent experiments. You don't have to look far, to find in Lenski's own words:

In three places in our paper, we did say 'data not shown', which is common in scientific papers.

Yeah... Because it was stuff reported in other papers, or something irrelevant, like the exact composition of his medium.

Yet it was revealded far more than in only three places. I would not call that common in scientific papers, not showing data clearly shows how much a decietful man Lenski is.

Only if you can show how the data omitted would actually change the conclusions.


Lenski refused everyone physical evidence of his claims (therefore how can anything he said be verified?),

Yeah, because sending Conservapedia bacterial samples would have been illegal and unethical. For someone claiming to have a PhD you are strangely unfamiliar with conventional research ethics.

his paper was then revealed to have numerous errors, and many places where it stated 'data not shown'.

Not showing repetitive information in a study isn't an error.


You are aware PNAS are 93% atheist? Creationists arn't interested in their nonsense.

I've noticed.
 
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BabyBoomer55

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I can't believe i just read 17 pages of this.
Asycthian disappears and YoungEarthAstronomer appears. Same person? Probably yeah. If they are the same person, what does that say about their credibility? Alot. Willing to lie to prove your point.

Now if these two are different people I am truly sorry. Really. I'm just hearing the same voice from each of them and it's bothered me.
 
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I dont understand how we've been given such incredible minds and have devoted so much to the study of philosophy and logic but still can't make these ideas mesh. We view the Bible as a perfect and complete HISTORY book. It wasn't written as a HISTORY book. The old testament was divided into three sections: the law, the history, and the writings. The writings were held to be parables or wisdom literature (Job, Ruth, Jonah, Song of Songs, Psalms, etc) yet we hold books such as Jonah as absolute scientific truth...can we explain the male then female whale then? Or what fish could have possible swallowed Jonah...was it all the filter feeders with balleen and throats the size of baseballs? On top of this...did Moses write the Torah? and if so did he write numbers 12:2 where it says "and then there was moses, the most humble man on the face of the earth?" Does anyone find it odd that a humble person can announce to everyone that he's the most humble? Or could the scribe Ezra have re written a few things? Such as the differences in David's life between kings and chronicles because of the Hebrew faith being placed in their heritage (chronicles) during the exile instead of the temple (kings)? To top all this off could the scribe ezra have added the creation story/poem to the beginning of Genesis to support a monotheistic view of creation during the exile as well? Because Genesis 1 and 2 give different stories so which is scientifically accurate? May I also ask how there was day and night for the first three days when the sun wasn't around til the 4th and a 24 hour period is determined by the earth rotating in relation to the sun?

Now after neatly making a place for evolution in our Biblical interpretation let me point out that evolution is within populations not individual animals and it has no end goal but shifts in response to stimulus and has been observed thousands of times in labs around the world with fast reproducing populations such as fruit flies or bacteria. It just makes logical sense: you have birds with strong thick beaks and some with long thin beaks. The thick beaks feed on nuts the thin feed on nectar, a storm comes and blows all the nuts off the island, the next generation has mainly thin beaks because they didn't die. it might shift the other way later. it might not. but it's true.
 
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driewerf

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Evolution simply has never been observed.

For example i have several pets, some are several years old. Yet they haven't evolved. How will the evolutionist respond to this? Here's what they will say:

''no you stupid creationist. how do you espect something to evolve in only a few years! it takes millions.''

Yet, Millions of years is not observable. Evolution is based on this fairy tale logic of vast periods of time.
No, you ignorant creationist. An individual does'nt evolve. Species do (over time), organisms don't.
 
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driewerf

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And what exactly have evolutionists ever contributed to anything?

All the theory of evolution has done is promote poor morality, promoted abortion, homosexuality (and other bad acts) and gave rise to bad ideologies such as Liberalism, Socialism, Communism and Nazism.
:clap::clap::clap:

Really, there was no homosexuality in the days of levithicus. That's why he needed to write against it.:confused:
 
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driewerf

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I've written the article, exposing the true origins of Darwinism. So far no one could refute it.

It was all political based. By the way, Marx wrote to Darwin numerous times, and even dedicated his work Das Kapital to Darwin. You can find his name in the preface to the book.
No, he didn't. Kapital is dedicated to Wilhel Wolff. You posted another canard.
 
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driewerf

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Do you accept the fact fossils are created very quickly?
A friend i have, has a fossilised key. The key is only a few years old.

Fossils don't take millions or billions of years to form, they are created very quickly, rapidly.

It fits well with the Biblical deluge but not the evolution belief.
Some fossils may form rapidly. But the key question is "When did they form?" And there the answer is: many hundredthousands to millions years ago.
 
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SithDoughnut

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And what exactly have evolutionists ever contributed to anything?

All the theory of evolution has done is promote poor morality, promoted abortion, homosexuality (and other bad acts) and gave rise to bad ideologies such as Liberalism, Socialism, Communism and Nazism.

And modern medicine. You missed that one out.

And as we all know, medicine is obviously evil.
 
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Hespera

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Yet, when you atheists/evolutionists spam me websites and i reject them on the same basis, you don't like it.



Anything can fossilize, see the hat i showed. Many miners items left in the mines have become fossilized, and these items were not there for millions of years. Fossils are created very quickly.

Evolutionists have got it all wrong (again).


Hi..

I dont have a dog in this fight here but I wanted to make a couple comments if I may.

You are right that anything can fossilize. Really all fossil means, is that something was buried.

Other than that, tho, the word "fossilized' doesnt have any very exact meaning, as I guess you know?

Some fossils like petrified wood, the original material was completely replace with silica minerals. Indians have chipped stone arrowheads out of petrified wood!

You get bones with some or all of the original bone replaced with minerals.

Some fossils are so fragile that its nearly impossible to recover them.
You can find some lying on the ground and others come up from thousands of feet below a wheatfield, or arctic tundra in cuttings from an oil well.

I could be a living fossil just by being buried in beach sand for a moment.
So sure, some fossils can be made about instantly!

But you cant really generalize more than that, about how fast they are formed or just what it means to be fossilized. Like a lot of others things, its not so simple.
 
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MolecularGenetics

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Evolution simply has never been observed.

For example i have several pets, some are several years old. Yet they haven't evolved. How will the evolutionist respond to this? Here's what they will say:

''no you stupid creationist. how do you espect something to evolve in only a few years! it takes millions.''

Yet, Millions of years is not observable. Evolution is based on this fairy tale logic of vast periods of time.

If you mean that natural selection has never been observed, then you are flat wrong. It is often observed, and has been observed to create portions of genes in labs. For instance, when the D2 domain of coliphage fd's g3p minor coat protein (which it needs to be infectious) was replaced with a random sequence of 139 amino acids and subjected to random mutagenesis. A 240-fold increase in fitness was observed after only 7 generations, eventually reaching a maximum of a 17,000-fold increase (Hayashi et al., 2006).

Natural selection has even been observed to create entirely new genes in labs; by subjecting Pseudomonas aeruginosa to a nylon-rich environment, mutations that caused the formation of both 6-aminohexanoate cyclic dimer hydrolase and 6-aminohexanoate dimer hydrolase were retained (Prijambada et al., 1995).


But if you mean that the evolutionary model is unscientific because the speciation events that lead to the diversity of life happened in the past—and thus cannot be observed—then you are misunderstanding how science works. Science is not just about making observation; but also about forming models of the unobservable that most parsimoniously fit the most observation, and seeking to make more observations to test the validity of the models.

The roll of microorganisms in disease, or the existence of atoms, for instance, was once purely based on inference. Now, we can observe them; but even if we couldn't, that wouldn't make the models unscientific.

When past events are accessed, all one can ever do is draw inference. But again, that doesn't make the models unscientific.


And in regards to your pets; the reason they are not evolving is because (contrary to Lamarck's model) the phenotypic change doesn't occur in the organisms themselves—it occurs in the organisms' offspring. So it's populations of organisms that evolve—not the organisms themselves.

If you look at the process of domestication, such as dog breeding (artificial selection), you will see phenotypic and genotypic change. But the reason this doesn't result in entirely new organisms is because the selection is taking place over such a short period of time, that it is only acting on preexisting phenotypically expressed genetic variation. The majority of the domestic dog breeds, for instance, have been created in just the past few hundred years, and not only are they quite genetically diverse (Parker, Sutter, & Ostrander, n.d.), but there is an extremely small genetic difference between them and the grey wolves from which they recently diverged (Savolainen, n.d.; Leonard, Vila, & Wayne, n.d.).

Simply put, a major limit on the effect of natural and artificial selection over short periods of time is that they act on preexisting variation. When you allow mutation to add to that variation over long periods of time, the changes can accumulate to form new genera, families, orders, etc.


As a side note, what dog breeding demonstrates is how large genetic variation in even phenotypically uniform populations correlates to an enormous range of potential phenotypes. This allows populations to adapt to new environmental pressures, even when the change is rapid and drastic. Rather than simply being wiped out, the population can persist long enough for further adaptation by natural selection acting on the genetic variation slowly introduced by mutation. Populations with larger variation have more of a built-in safeguard against being decimated by a changing environment.


References

Hayashi, Y., T. Aita, H. Toyota, Y. Husimi, I. Urabe, and T. Yomo. "Experimental rugged fitness landscape in protein sequence space." PLoS One 1.E96 (2006).

Leonard, J. A., C. Vila, and R. K. Wayne. "From Wild Wolf to Domestic Dog." In: Ostrander, E. A., U. Giger, and K. Lindblad-Toh, eds. The genome of the domestic dog. New York: Cold Spring Harbor, 2006. 95–118.

Parker, H. G., N. B. Sutter, E. A. Ostrander. "Understanding Genetic Relationships Among Purebred Dogs: The PhyDo Project." In: Ostrander, E. A., U. Giger, and K. Lindblad-Toh, eds. The genome of the domestic dog. New York: Cold Spring Harbor, 2006. 141–158.

Prijambada, I. D., S. Negoro, T. Yomo, and I. Urabe. "Emergence of Nylon Oligomer Degradation Enzymes in Pseudomonas Aeruginosa PAO through Experimental Evolution." Appl Environ Microbiol 61.5 (1995 May): 2020-2.

Savolainen, P. "mtDNA Studies of the Origin of Dogs." In: Ostrander, E. A., U. Giger, and K. Lindblad-Toh, eds. The genome of the domestic dog. New York: Cold Spring Harbor, 2006. 119–140.
 
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AV1611VET

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Ok, I belive in evolution and ive heard that many christians don't ive yet to hear any arguments. im not saying ive heard some and their invalid, no ive actually never been told why, so lemme hear some please and ill debate or agree as accodrdingly

Jesus doesn't believe in evolution -- so neither do I.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Jesus doesn't believe in evolution -- so neither do I.
Where did Jesus say that, and how can you be certain it wasn't allegory?

And, beside, Jesus wasn't omniscient: there were things he didn't know. Is it possible he was wrong?
 
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AV1611VET

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Wiccan_Child

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Jesus spoke of evolution's antithesis: creation.
Yes, but I'm not entirely convinced he wasn't being metaphorical.

But then, you're not here to convince me :p

That doesn't mean He made mistakes.
True, but then again, it's still possible. It seems logical that Jesus would be all-knowing, or at least infallible, but is there any Scriptural basis for this? I reckon it's just wishful thinking on the part of Christians, deifying him (ironically, since he was a deity).

If He didn't know -- He said so.
He didn't give an itinerary of his knowledge; for all we know, what he thought about, say, the mechanics of human reproduction, was completely wrong.

Why not?
 
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