The Dodwell Data now out!!!!!

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Ah, so let's get this straight. You seem to accept that the only KNOWN kings for the crucial period you raised, provide no challenge whatsoever to a biblical dating. Therefore you apparently have no direct challenge to the Dodwell data, and curve after all. Instead, you try to fall back on more distant parts of this silly king list, as if it could possibly be some problem, or challenge, in some vague way.

From Wiki which was your source above

"Netjerikhet or Djoser (Turin King List "Dsr-it"; Manetho "Tosarthros") is the best-known pharaoh of the Third dynasty of Egypt. He commissioned his official, Imhotep (ca. 2650-2600 BC), to build the first of the pyramids, a step pyramid for him at Saqqara. Variants of his name include Zoser, Dzoser, Zozer, Dsr, Djeser, Djésèr, Horus-Netjerikhet, and Horus-Netjerichet.

I have said all the time, that I accept even radioactive decay dating, and other present state methods, up to a point. Even if there was decay dating for up till around 2000BC or so, I would not have reason to question it. As we get further back, beyond the range of accurate records, that is another matter.


Well, was ancient Greece there at the time of this Egyptian temple? What I wonder is HOW he arrived at the degrees and minutes he claims? If he rode the wings of a same state curve back to an imaginary time, then that would be meaningless.

So you are saying the data are meanless which means that your whole point about Dodwell is meaningless as that is exactly what Dodwell did except he used the wrong alignment of the Temple of Karnac.

How do we know that one particular solstice had it's view blocked back in that time, either? What proof is offered even, that the view is blocked? Do you even have a quote from Dodwell saying he did use a certain solstice? To say the least, the Hawkins stuff on offer is murky.

From Dodwell
"The next step was to write a full account of the whole matter, together with a study of the astronomy of the Solar Temples of Egypt, especially the Great Solar Temple of Amen-Ra at Karnak, which was oriented to the setting sun at the summer solstice at the date of its foundation, about 2045 B.C."

However, the link you posted above said it was aligned with the midwinter sun in agreement with Hawkins, which puts it right on the Newcomb curve so you have refuted yourself. Since you have refuted yourself there is no need for anyone else to refute you further. End of story.

 

[dad]

From Wiki which was your source above

"Netjerikhet or Djoser (Turin King List "Dsr-it"; Manetho "Tosarthros") is the best-known pharaoh of the Third dynasty of Egypt. He commissioned his official, Imhotep (ca. 2650-2600 BC), to build the first of the pyramids, a step pyramid for him at Saqqara. Variants of his name include Zoser, Dzoser, Zozer, Dsr, Djeser, Djésèr, Horus-Netjerikhet, and Horus-Netjerichet.

Care to show us how this is dated? I see you offer a king with apparently 2 names, or maybe 3, ( along with the variants, supposedly of the name, Manetho calls him something else.) Wasn't Horus a spirit? I see one of the guys aliases is Horus-Netjerikhet I would suspect that as we get near the building of the first great pyramid, we ought to be near the time of spirits among men, and different laws! The evidence mounts. As for the dating, heck, although it is close, it is a few hundred years off anyway. Let's face it, you can't support the dates. Neither can wiki, or anyone else, they are wrong o wrong.

So you are saying the data are meanless which means that your whole point about Dodwell is meaningless as that is exactly what Dodwell did except he used the wrong alignment of the Temple of Karnac.
From Dodwell

Well, I disagree. First you need to prove it. On what basis do you and whats his face claim that the alignment was midwinter?

However, the link you posted above said it was aligned with the midwinter sun in agreement with Hawkins, which puts it right on the Newcomb curve so you have refuted yourself. Since you have refuted yourself there is no need for anyone else to refute you further. End of story.

Well, I never posted any link for that purpose. I think I asked you already the basis, so, what, you offer a statement that is was a certain alignment?? HOW do you calculate that it was midwinter, precisely? You seem to forget that they were not there when it was built, they had to use certain assumptions to get there in their head. Fess up, you have no idea.

 

[dad]

So, dad... you "suspect," you "assume" and you ask "how would I know." That's pretty much your case in a nutshell (no pun intended). Then you claim it is "all subject to evidence.' Well, guess what, dad? Christian geologists looking for the flood sediments concluded there were none... and they did so back in the 1800s. That is the conclusion that the evidence leads to.

No, they concluded only that the flood could not exist assuming a present state! When I say I suspect something, you can take it more as a 'highly educated, likely scenario based not only on man's knowedge, but the word of God'

 

[dad]

How do you know? How can you distinguish something that is pre-split from something that is post-split?

Well, one big marker is what was pre flood or post.

Quite the assumption. Can you show me that iridium comes from space and from the interior of the earth?

Sure.

" Iridium is an element that is rare on Earth but relatively abundant in many meteorites."

Impact event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Within the Earth's crust, iridium is found at highest concentrations in three types of geologic structure: igneous deposits (crustal intrusions from below), impact craters, and deposits reworked from one of the former structures."
Iridium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You thought I was making this stuff up??

Geologists and christians alike have been looking for the flood for 200 years. Nobody's found it yet. Do you think you can do better? Do you think you can find it?

Why the future tense? Ho hum..

Circular reasoning. Standard dad fare.

Using the evidence of science as well as the bible is not circular in any way.

 

[Levopoly]

Wait, so you're implying that an internal event can cause the Earth's axis to shift by a certain amount?

I don't think so. The shifting of the Earth's axis must have been produced from an external event either inside or outside out solar system.

 

[dad]

Wait, so you're implying that an internal event can cause the Earth's axis to shift by a certain amount?

I don't think so. The shifting of the Earth's axis must have been produced from an external event either inside or outside out solar system.

Hmm, I think I am implying a lot more than that! Who says there was any axis before the big change?? Or even any orbiting? Is that known?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Care to show us how this is dated? I see you offer a king with apparently 2 names, or maybe 3, ( along with the variants, supposedly of the name, Manetho calls him something else.)

The 3rd and 4th dynast Kings are dated in the same way as the the 12th dynasty kings that Dodwell used for his curve. You consider it OK when you use it but won't accept it now for earlier Kings that don't fit your myth.

Wasn't Horus a spirit? I see one of the guys aliases is Horus-Netjerikhet I would suspect that as we get near the building of the first great pyramid, we ought to be near the time of spirits among men, and different laws!

This is a really silly argument.

The evidence mounts.

There is no evidence for your myth.

Well, I never posted any link for that purpose. I think I asked you already the basis, so, what, you offer a statement that is was a certain alignment??

HOW do you calculate that it was midwinter, precisely? You seem to forget that they were not there when it was built,

Neither was Dodwell so according to you he couldn't have know how it was aligned so his "curve" is meaningless.

You have refuted yourself on this thread so no more time needs to be wasted on it.

 

[dad]

The 3rd and 4th dynast Kings are dated in the same way as the the 12th dynasty kings that Dodwell used for his curve. You consider it OK when you use it but won't accept it now for earlier Kings that don't fit your myth.

By the same token, you then, must accept that the first kings were spiritual beings. I look at it more as document that is unreliable for dating. Especially as we get further back in time. I understand that my opinion that it is not a reliable document is shared by almost everyone in the know! ..So, I suppose you will retreat from accepting it as well, unless you want to defend the spirits in the list. One can drive a car to a market, it works OK, one cannot drive it to the moon. I figure I can use the records of the king lists, for a few thousand years, with reasonable accuracy for dates. That doesn't mean we can fly it to the moon of the far past. As in other areas, that attempt always ends in an absurd place. Whether magically appearing life forms that produce all life on earth, or cramming the universe itself into a teeny soup, that could fit on the head of a pin...Balance, perspective, they can be good things.

This is a really silly argument.
There is no evidence for your myth.

Nothing silly at all about the concept of Egypt coming to be post flood.

Neither was Dodwell so according to you he couldn't have know how it was aligned so his "curve" is meaningless.

His curve had 66 data points, all showing the same pattern of divergence from accepted dates. We know that there was a temple, and so all that remains is the timing. In no way would it seriously affect his curve. Especially since you can't defend your claims of some also ran, who wrote a book claiming some unsupported alternate midwinter day dream.

You have refuted yourself on this thread so no more time needs to be wasted on it.

No, in no way is that correct. Of course others will make the same assumptive starting conclusions and arrive at the wrong station of time. I do not share their opinion. Neither have I seen you or them support it here in detail. Bottom line, is that you didn't mention what steps they used to place the bodies of the heavens at the point where the solstice would have been as they claimed! Fail.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

By the same token, you then, must accept that the first kings were spiritual beings.

Why? Because they have names you associate with spiritual beings? I guess you don't know anyone who has the same name as an angel or any other spiritual being. You have outsilled even your usual high standard of silly here.

I look at it more as document that is unreliable for dating. Especially as we get further back in time.

Right it is not very good after about 2600 BC but still more than good enough to show that your date for the world wide flood is totally absurd.

I understand that my opinion that it is not a reliable document is shared by almost everyone in the know! ..So, I suppose you will retreat from accepting it as well, unless you want to defend the spirits in the list. One can drive a car to a market, it works OK, one cannot drive it to the moon. I figure I can use the records of the king lists, for a few thousand years, with reasonable accuracy for dates. That doesn't mean we can fly it to the moon of the far past. As in other areas, that attempt always ends in an absurd place. Whether magically appearing life forms that produce all life on earth, or cramming the universe itself into a teeny soup, that could fit on the head of a pin...Balance, perspective, they can be good things.
Nothing silly at all about the concept of Egypt coming to be post flood.
His curve had 66 data points, all showing the same pattern of divergence from accepted dates. We know that there was a temple, and so all that remains is the timing. In no way would it seriously affect his curve. Especially since you can't defend your claims of some also ran, who wrote a book claiming some unsupported alternate midwinter day dream.

No, in no way is that correct. Of course others will make the same assumptive starting conclusions and arrive at the wrong station of time. I do not share their opinion. Neither have I seen you or them support it here in detail. Bottom line, is that you didn't mention what steps they used to place the bodies of the heavens at the point where the solstice would have been as they claimed! Fail.

The major deviation of his curve from Newcombe curve come from that fact that he used the wrong solstice for Karnak. When the correct solstice is used it falls right on the curve. You have refuted the Karnak orientation yourself above so you I say that you have accidentally refuted yourself just as you often have before. There is no need to waste any more time on this Dodwell nonsense. Thanks for providing an additional refutation to the one I had already provided.

 

[Orogeny]

Well, one big marker is what was pre flood or post.

I provided you with a geologic time scale and asked you to show us on the time scale which deposits are pre-flood, which are syn-flood, and which are post-flood. You have yet to do this. Do so now.

Impact event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iridium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You thought I was making this stuff up??

Nope. Just making sure you know what you're talking about. For the record, the crust is not the interior of the earth. That's why it's called the crust. Interior= mantle and core.

Why the future tense? Ho hum..

So then you've found a flood deposit? Let's see it. There's a Nobel prize in it for you if you're right.

Using the evidence of science as well as the bible is not circular in any way.

Well since you've done neither of these things, my critique stands.

 

[dad]

Why? Because they have names you associate with spiritual beings? I guess you don't know anyone who has the same name as an angel or any other spiritual being. You have outsilled even your usual high standard of silly here.

Strange thing to say, like no one ever heard of the obvious..?

"It is, however, the verso of the papyrus that has attracted the most attention, as it contains a list of gods, demi-gods, spirits, mythical and human kings who ruled Egypt from the beginning of time presumably until the composition of this valuable document."

Egypt Kings Lists

Common knowledge, what Egyptians claimed. Not sure what sort of lame attempt that was supposed to be.

I don't make this stuff up.

Right it is not very good after about 2600 BC but still more than good enough to show that your date for the world wide flood is totally absurd.

Well, I would think that it is fairly close till a few thousand BC, yes. You certainly provide us no evidence or clear case against it.

The major deviation of his curve from Newcombe curve come from that fact that he used the wrong solstice for Karnak.

So you claim here that a certain solstice was correct. Can you show us the steps that het you there, precisely? Or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

When the correct solstice is used it falls right on the curve. You have refuted the Karnak orientation yourself above so you I say that you have accidentally refuted yourself just as you often have before. There is no need to waste any more time on this Dodwell nonsense. Thanks for providing an additional refutation to the one I had already provided.

Cut the dramatics here. If I used someone that had a wonky solstice position, it sure does not refute anything or anyone. If the solstice really was in winter, and if Dodwell really was mistaken, that is fine, let's see you put something on the table clearly, in English. Frankly, I don't believe you, and doubt you know what you are talking about.

Go ahead...make my day..

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Dad,
Like many ancient people the Egyptians considered theri Kings to be god like. This does not mean that they actually were demi-Gods or spritual beings as you claimed. In any case you refuted yourself regarding Dodwell's "curve" several posts ago so no more time needs to be wasted on this thread.

 

[AV1611VET]

Like many ancient people the Egyptians considered theri Kings to be god like.

What changed their minds?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

What changed their minds?

Unlike Creationists most people have developed beyond the primative supersitions of their early cultures.

 

[AV1611VET]

Unlike Creationists most people have developed beyond the primative supersitions of their early cultures.

I'm sorry -- did you understand the question?

What changed their minds?

What -- specifically -- changed their minds?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I'm sorry -- did you understand the question?

What changed their minds?

What -- specifically -- changed their minds?

In Egypt it was probably Islam so you could say they replaced one set of superstitions with a more sophisticated set. I am not sure about all other cultures. We gave up on the divine right of Kings a while ago but it is clear from this board that there are still a lot of people who cling to primative religious myths.

 

[AV1611VET]

In Egypt it was probably Islam...

Or maybe this?

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Or maybe this?

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Except of course that there is no evidence of this in Egyptian records and they considered their Pharohs divine beings well after the supposed date of these alleged events.

 

[AV1611VET]

Except of course that there is no evidence of this in Egyptian records and they considered their Pharohs divine beings well after the supposed date of these alleged events.

I'm talking about the gods of Egypt -- as in the Nile River, etc.

The Ten Plagues were not just random plagues, but were aimed at Egypt's objects of worship.

They worshipped the sun, for example, and there was the plague of darkness.

 

[dad]

Dad,
Like many ancient people the Egyptians considered theri Kings to be god like. This does not mean that they actually were demi-Gods or spritual beings as you claimed. In any case you refuted yourself regarding Dodwell's "curve" several posts ago so no more time needs to be wasted on this thread.

Nope. The Egyptians actually regarded them as spirits. You can't wave it off. As for your claim of a midwinter soltice, as all can now see, you can't support it. If a link I googled happened to include someone with that opinion, they are on their own, out on a limb with you! Let's see you prove it, or lose it. You refuted squat.