Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[Rev Wayne]

No Rev Wayne it is not a straw man at all, it’s the heart of the syncretism that is freemasonry.

Syncretism? The fusing of two separate systems into a new whole? Can you give us an example, showing (a) what systems were merged, and (b) specific examples from Masonic sources, showing the specific elements by which you identified each system you suggest has been "syncretized?"

Otherwise, you have shown nothing but words.

as opposed to Christianity where one size does fit all in that respect.

But isn't that generally expected when dealing with a religion, which Masonry is not?

Never thought it could, why do you suggest it cant be something it cant be?

Because your comments, almost with exception, presume it to be something it can't be.

Well if they are professing Christians they are Christians not masons.

Bingo! This hasn't been a waste after all then. I was beginning to think you believed, as some seem to do, that when a Christian becomes a Mason, they abandon their Christian faith to become a Freemasonian.

Being a Mason isn’t a requirement of Christ.

Neither is it a prohibition.

If the only thing that matters is Christ then it doesn’t matter whether all the Masons are taken away or not and there cant be a void unless something is taken away.

There cannot help but be a void if anything of substance is removed. The only way your statement could be true would be if (a) Masons were not real, or (b) Masons are real, but have no tangible substance. Neither of those is true, so your claim is false.

And by your logic, it doesn't matter whether the Christians are all taken away, either. Or anybody or anything else either. By your claim, then, God could have had no purpose in creating anything that is, if the only thing that matters is the uncreated Christ. What a strange world you live in.

Christians do lift a finger, it’s a response they do because of the Holy Spirit.

Bingo! There's hope for you yet, you managed to get two bingo's out of me in one post, that's rare.

Christians work out their salvation. Christians don’t need freemasonry to do that, God should take the glory from Christ’s church not from a separate human organisation.

How does God lose the glory when Christians do things that bring Him glory, albeit while doing so not only as a Christian but as a member of a service organization? That just doesn't make sense. And anyway, since when is "Christ's Church" an institutional organization? Last time I checked, the Church was (and is) US! So when and if a Christian DOES "lift a finger," it is God who gets the glory, regardless of whether they do it as a Mason, as a Lion, as a Rotary member, or whatever. And of course it is God who gets the glory, "for it is GOD who WORKS IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure."

So if "Christians do lift a finger, as a response because of the Holy Spirit," why would anyone think such response has to be compartmentalized in the manner you suggest?

I happen to belong to the local Lions' Club, and we manage to do things through that organization that NONE of the local churches are doing. Through the group I make contacts with people from other churches, with people who are involved in city government, and other people with whom I do not normally come in contact. The result is, there are things I can be involved in that I would not be able to get involved in with just the church. And there are larger projects, not just of a spiritual nature, which are also good things to do. I doubt any Christian would be so short-sighted as to denounce the Lions' Club for sponsoring an effort to procure funding for a project to build a library in town. But that is what this club did, and successfully so. The bulk of it was spearheaded by a man who is a member of my church, and also a Mason, who was instrumental in being persistent enough to keep it in the attention of a state house representative for our area who kept giving the runaround with "We're working on it, get back with me." When they had the dedication and groundbreaking, the representative was there, and took a good-natured poke at this man for being hard-headed enough to keep after him about it.

Jesus taught the parable of the talents in Luke 19, in which the master was going away for a time and distributed the talents among ten servants, telling them to "occupy until I return." The ones who did as He instructed were the ones who were commended. The ones who chose, out of FEAR, to cling to the talent rather than use it, were the ones who were reprimanded. That word "occupy" is from the Greek pragmateuw, from which we get pragmatic; the word "feared" (v. 21) is a form of the Greek word phobew, from which we get our word "phobia." So the choice of what to do until He returns is one between being pragmatic or giving in to our phobias.

To me, Jesus says the same thing to us, we are to "occupy until He returns." Now, you ask the value of an organization like Masonry, when the Christian has the church through which to act. That's well and good for self-starters, but not all are. Organizations like Masonry or any of the service organizations like the Lions, or Rotary, or Kiwanis, or Sertoma, or Ruritan, etc., often serve as the catalyst by which a person who may be lacking in motivational impetus, can be propelled into a life of active service. With the self-starter in the church, that desire to serve will often carry over so that they may become involved in serving in civic-minded organizations; with those who first find their motivation for service in civic organizations, that motivation begins with civic activities, and without fail, if they are also Christians, it will carry over into their church life as well.

I can speak to the veracity of this, because I am one for whom this happened as well. I was never one of those at the central core always involved in whatever went on at the church. As a called pastor, it was more like being drawn into it without there being any volition to it at all, at many or most functions of the church, I was involved in various ways because it was required of me as part of my job.

Since I became a Mason that focus has changed entirely. I find myself looking for ways to be actively connected, and doing so in ways I never knew possible. Golf is a hobby of mine, to keep fit I walk the course when playing, and on occasions when I can find no partner, I spend some time talking with God. And I get ideas now that did not come before--like the conversation I was having with one man recently about putting together a fund-raising tournament at our local course, to help out a local charity. Or the conversation with a high school classmate trying to determine if there is interest in organizing a class reunion this year. (If our class had voted on the persons most likely to convene a 40th-year class reunion, I doubt either of us would have gotten a single vote.) Or the ideas that are coming lately, of finding a way to incorporate the talents God gave me of piano and voice, with the interest I have in doing something for autism awareness (I have two boys with Asperger's). The thought is, to make it a combination musical and informational program. Or, on the simpler level, I plan to start regularly putting on a musical program at the local nursing homes, to serve what is increasingly becoming one of our most-neglected segments of the population.

Not saying that nothing of the sort ever entered my mind before. But the inner stimulus to do these things has been energized, so that these things do not just enter in, float about in the mind for a time, and then go away, but instead become actualized. I attribute it first of all to the Holy Spirit, of course, but since the Holy Spirit was already there before, I had to ask myself why. Then it occurred to me, that the Holy Spirit can certainly do wonders, but can only deal with us as the individuals we are, in order to move us toward becoming the individuals we can be. In other words, the Spirit, though God can miraculously supply what is lacking, generally works through the gifting, abilities, and motivations that are already there.

But what I find in Masonry is that it, at every turn, exhorts and encourages involvement and action. For someone who may have the desire but not the natural inclination or motivation toward these things, Masonry can be a wonderful tool for effectively gearing one's thinking toward active serving. It does so by the repetition of those moral values and incentives that will naturally motivate one to service.

"Masons do the right thing for no other reason than the fact that it IS the right thing."

"A Mason's primary duty is his duty to God."

"To relieve the distressed, is a duty incumbent on all men, but particularly on Masons, who are linked together by an indissoluble chain of sincere affection."

"The plumb admonishes us to walk uprightly in our several stations, before God and men, squaring our actions by the square of virtue, and remembering that we are traveling upon the level of time to that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns."

"But his motto will be, 'Onward and forward! The stair is still before him; its summit is not yet reached.'"

"The bee hive is an emblem of industry, and recommends the practice of that virtue to all created beings, from the highest seraph in heaven to the lowest reptile of the dust. It teaches us that as we came into the world rational and intelligent ones, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them withou inconvenience to ourselves."

By these and many other exhortations, Masonry inculcates the value of actively fulfilling one's duty to both God and humankind. For the Christian Mason, this has value, in greater or lesser degree, as the individual may need such encouragements.

Many times I find where some Mason has written comments bemoaning the fact that Masons seem to come take the degrees, and then rarely if ever attend lodge again. Perhaps they are among those who come, receive the jump-start needed to get them actively involved in serving, and then they go and find themselves busy in putting the exhortations into practice.

These are just some things I have noticed, from the perspective of one person. I'm sure there are plenty of other benefits that others have gotten from Masonry, that cannot simply be dismissed as "unnecessary" or whatever, by virtue solely of it not being the church nor an arm of the church. I invite any other readers here to share those for the benefit of the discussion.

Freemasonry is irrelevant to a Christian, a Christian is in fellowship with the church, the body of believers.

As for the latter part of the statement, I couldn't agree more: the church most definitely is the body of believers, not a building and not an organization. With some estimates putting the percentage of Masons who are also Christians at 90-95%, that means the Christian in the lodge has fellowship with other members of the body of believers in more buildings than one. What I find also, is that Christians who are Masons, will serve and will give when asked, in BOTH organizations. And I don't find that in any way to mean he will divide between the two; rather, somehow he finds he has the resources to give to both, and finds the time to serve in various ways in both.

To me this is FAR from "irrelevant."

In a nutshell: Masonry supplements, not supplants, my Christian faith.

 

[O.F.F.]

BMS,

You are again absolutely right! Masons, "professing Christians" (those with a "said" faith) or otherwise, are trapped in a morass: they are serving a religious fraternity that teaches all monotheistic religions worship the same "God" collectively as Masons under the title G.A.O.T.U., but by different names according to each Mason's religion; or they tacitly approve of the belief of individual gods that can be referred to generically as G.A.O.T.U., including the One True Living God of the Bible (Father, Son & Holy Spirit), who is the Only God! In either case, the "Christian" Mason that persist in Masonry after knowing this, is guilty of violating the First Commandment, or is in complete denial of doing so.

Also, keep in mind as you engage the infamous "rev" Wayne, he is a pastor from the United Methodist Church (UMC), where on average 90-95% of the men in this denomination are Masons. Therefore, it stand to his futile reasoning, that most Masons he knows are "professing Christians." But he, and they, fail to acknowledge the bigger picture I outlined above. As an institution, Freemasonry is a lot bigger than the confines of a UMC pastor and his flock of Masons in a little church in South Carolina. And it encompasses many more world religions, although the United Methodist Church has the largest Masonic membership in its denomination. However, Freemasonry is a universal fraternity unity under the concept of the Fatherhood of God (regardless of one's religious persuasion) and the Brotherhood of Man (regardless if you are a brother in Christ or not). Remember, one Grand Lodge reports that this is the basis of its universality:

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being (singular) is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41 (emphasis added)

So when he speaks of the 80/20 rule, he does so because the majority of his 'livelihood' comes from 80% of his congregation; NOT because Freemasonry in general is mostly Christians who are the first to role up their sleeves and work. What this means is, he defends his income, by defending Freemasonry in general; as if it is a "Christian" organization. As you know, however, Freemasonry is an 'unholy spiritual brotherhood' unity under the false composite god called G.A.O.T.U. And for the survival of some false pastors who wear a Masonic Apron, for them the sell-out goes, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and "don't bite the hand that feeds you."

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

Syncretism?

let me stop you there, It is Christians who profess Jesus Christ as Lord, those disciples who did so were first called Christians at Antioch. Professing Jesus Christ as Lord makes one a Christian not a freemason.

Bingo!

Well not quite, we are examining freemasonry not Christianity. So as a Christian there is no need to be a freemason. Why would a Christian want to be a freemason?

Neither is it a prohibition.

On the contrary it does seem to be. Your remark was

Most Masons ARE Christians, and would profess the same things.

that’s because they are Christians; they would profess the Lordship of Christ whether they are masons or not. The issue is about freemasonry not Christianity and if freemasonry refers to gaotu and some freemasons don’t see it as God Father Son and Holy Spirit then Christians need to be careful not to continue with gaotu but address God for who He is.
Indeed if Freemasonry doesn’t require a member to specify God but requires them not to, it’s a syncretistic deception.

Let me put it this way, if Freemasonry were to ask me whether I believe in a god to qualify then Freemasonry must be interested in my God. If freemasonry then tells me to stop referring to God for who He is the I know Freemasonry is into pluralism.

How does God lose the glory when Christians do things that bring Him glory, albeit while doing so not only as a Christian but as a member of a service organization? That just doesn't make sense.

In what way doesn’t it make sense? Where does the Bible refer to service organisations? What doesn’t makes sense, Christians work out their salvation? Christians don’t need freemasonry to do that?, God should take the glory from Christ’s church not from a separate human organisation?

And anyway, since when is "Christ's Church" an institutional organization?

I didn’t say it was.

regardless of whether they do it as a Mason,

As a mason? The Holy Spirit is given to believers in Christ, I don’t see where masons come into it.

"Now, you ask the value of an organization like Masonry, when the Christian has the church through which to act. That's well and good for self-starters, but not all are.

Sorry not all are what? The Christian has the church through which to act, the fellowship of believers.

Organizations like Masonry or any of the service organizations like the Lions, or Rotary, or Kiwanis, or Sertoma, or Ruritan, etc., often serve as the catalyst by which a person who may be lacking in motivational impetus, can be propelled into a life of active service.

No the Christian has the church through which to act. If their local church is ‘dead’ if they have the Spirit they might be able to revive it or alternatively find a church in which to serve, no need for another organisation.
If one has a relationship with Christ then one doesn’t need a separate organisation.

But what I find in Masonry is that it, at every turn, exhorts and encourages involvement and action.

For Christians that’s what the Holy Spirit does, so one doesn’t need freemasonry.

"Masons do the right thing for no other reason than the fact that it IS the right thing."

Jesus said without Him one can do nothing, there can be no fruit that lasts, freemasonry is irrelevant yet you seem to giving it all the glory.

"A Mason's primary duty is his duty to God."

That’s what Christians primary duty is, to love God with all one has.

"To relieve the distressed, is a duty incumbent on all men, but particularly on Masons, who are linked together by an indissoluble chain of sincere affection."

That’s what Christians do, to love ones neighbour, … Matthew 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.”

"The plumb admonishes us to walk uprightly in our several stations, before God and men, squaring our actions by the square of virtue, and remembering that we are traveling upon the level of time to that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns."

For Christians that’s what the blood does, it cleanses and washes us clean, walking upright doesn’t do it for ourselves, faith in Christ does it.
The more you post the more evident O.F.F is right, Freemasonry is a very subtle deception, it’s a religion which imposes human attributes over God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Thanks for your posts and invaluable information.
The fact is the Rev Wayne is telling me what Freemasonry does for him, whereas I am telling him what Christ does for me.

 

[wayseer]

I wonder what 'it' does for scouts?

 

[O.F.F.]

I wonder what 'it' does for scouts?

And I wonder what your comment has to do with the Religion of Freemasonry?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Also, keep in mind as you engage the infamous "rev" Wayne, he is a pastor from the United Methodist Church (UMC), where on average 90-95% of the men in this denomination are Masons.

Keep in mind as you engage the infamous O.F.F.-the-mark and his O.F.F.-the-cuff comments. He just recently had his "coming out" experience on this very forum, where he was caught in not one, but several different--and proven--false claims. Obviously this was his initiation ordeal, and he had to do these things in his search for acceptance among the "big boys" of the antimason crowd, like Shaw, Ankerberg, Chick, Decker, and Schnoebelen. Apparently he didn't do enough yet, and has to progress even further (and receive further lie-ght"), and so he has created this fresh round of totally unfounded and blatant non-truths. If he is successful in this venture, he may even win the coveted freemasonrywatch medal.

For one thing, I've NEVER seen any church ANYWHERE, Methodist or not, where that figure could be claimed to be true. For another, where on earth do you resource the material that would even back up an asinine accusation like that??? You certainly won't find it at Bessel.org, he deals in matters that are verifiable, not stuff you make up O.F.F. the top of your head. Besides, with the PROVEN FALSEHOODS you recently accumulated here, nobody's about to take YOUR word for anything anyway.

And for another, in the current church I serve, I know maybe four men who are Masons (there were five but one died). That's four out of around 130 total church membership. What the gender makeup is, I don't know o.f.f. the top of my head, but roughly half that figure would be the logical assumption. Even if we took a lower figure, say 50 male members, and even if we count that one Mason who is no longer with us, to make 5, that still comes out, even after skewing the matter in your favor, to a grand total of 10%.

DO THE MATH, MICHAEL. How do you take that and spin it to come out with 90-95%??

Therefore, it stand to his futile reasoning, that most Masons he knows are "professing Christians."

ALL the Masons I have met in the lodges where I have held membership, were Christians. When I joined York Rite here, not surprisingly, nearly all the men I had seen in lodge here were also in attendance there; and all have gone through the Commandery degrees, where Christian profession is a requirement before taking the degrees. So, contrary to your O.F.F.-THE-CUFF, ridiculously false claims, the reason I can make the statement about the Masons I have met in the lodges here is, I have gotten to know them, and as I have, that information has a way of coming out. When the lodge is in refreshment, for example, we are free to have conversation, and the fact that I am a pastor is a natural ice-breaker, because everyone will have something they can reference in their experience when the subject of the church and the pastor come up. What I find is, it is a natural bridge for them to share with me what church/denomination they belong to, they will generally tell me who the pastor is there, and do I know him?, and all the usual conversational stuff that comes up along with it.

THAT'S how I come to find out the information, and it matters very little what the Masonic situation is, just let someone find out I am a pastor, and those kinds of conversations inevitably come up, whether that be an inspirational gathering, degree work, research lodge, regular scheduled meeting, training session, the same thing happens at all.

But you are being disingenuous here, for you KNOW I have shared this very information with you more than once already.

So when he speaks of the 80/20 rule, he does so because the majority of his 'livelihood' comes from 80% of his congregation; NOT because Freemasonry in general is mostly Christians who are the first to role up their sleeves and work.

No, I speak of the 80/20 principle because it is a phenomenon that every pastor I know is extremely familiar with. In fact, it's not just in the church, it's in practically every organization you could name, in one way or another (it even has a name, "The Pareto Principle"). For instance, 20% of criminals commit 80% of crimes; 20% of products account for 80% of sales; 20% of motorists cause 80% of accidents; 20% of the carpets in your home get 80% of the wear; 80% of the energy in a combustion engine is wasted during combustion, the other 20% drives the engine;

No, not every church in which the 80/20 phenomenon can be observed, has Masons leading the charge within the 20%. Heck, it can't even be claimed that in all of them, Masons can even be FOUND. I don't even know what you imagine was said, which justifies such a return comment.

As a result, he defend his income, by defending Freemasonry in general as if it is a "Christian" organization. . . .And for the survival of some false pastors who wear a Masonic Apron, for them the sell-outgoes, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and "don't bite the hand that feeds you."

You embarrassed yourself with this one once already at CARM, wasn't that enough? Apparently you're a glutton for humiliation.

The fact is, in three years in my current appointment, I got a raise only one of those years, the first one. The person who that year headed the committee that makes that determination, is not a Mason. The man who was elected to that chair and has held it the last two years, IS a Mason, and under his leadership of that committee, I have had no increase in salary. But the fact is, if he had been chairman or if he had not been chairman, is completely irrelevant. Why? Because both of those years, when they were about to have the annual meeting at which they make deliberations upon salaries of church staff, I contacted him beforehand and voluntary requested that no raise be given, because the church simply could not afford it.

In the previous appointment I served, I received no raise for the first two years there, at my own request, because the same was true at that church as well. And the third year, the raise I did receive was minimal, a small percentage figure that was suggested in comparison to the cost of living index.

And for the coming year? I will be the recipient of a pay cut to the tune of about 5%. So in six years, there were only three changes, two of them raises, but which, percentage-wise, were more than wiped out by the 5% cut that comes this year. That makes a cumulative decrease for the six-year period.

By way of comparison, a couple of years ago, my wife's doctor finally consented to sign for her to receive disability income. $500 a month is hardly a living wage, but we are grateful to be able to get the additional help. People just don't seem to want to hire epileptics, no matter how well their seizures are controlled. Though she got no increase on it last year, she got an increase the year before that amounted to about 6%.

So the ironic thing is, my wife, who doesn't even work, has had a 6% cumulative increase, while I have a cumulative decrease over 6 years!

So, you still wanna talk to me about this incredibly ridiculous notion you invented O.F.F.-the-c.u.f.f. in that fertile imagination of yours, about "selling out" and "defending my income?"

You seem to keep forgetting, I am not a product of Methodism per se, at least not the Methodism that you enjoy labeling, because I went to all the wrong schools. The fact that I went to a Holiness Bible College that harkens back to Phoebe Palmer would probably griddle their gizzards if they were aware of it, but I don't think that one really comes into play. But since I am a graduate of Asbury Seminary, which technically is not a Methodist school, but graduates more Methodist pastors than any other school in the U.S., and since Asbury is anathema to the Methodist church just as much for their outsider status as for their evangelical viewpoint, it doesn't exactly stand me in good stead when it comes to appointments. Nor does the fact that I completed my education at Erskine, a school whose work was accepted for completion of ordination requirements at that time, but since that time has been declared unacceptable, not just in SC, but in the entire United Methodist Church.

Guys like us, we get the small-town or the rural appointments, or the 3-point charge that no one else wants. And no, those churches are not full of Masons. Truth to tell, they're hardly full at all.

Freemasonry is a universal fraternity unity under the concept of the Fatherhood of God (regardless of one's religious persuasion) and the Brotherhood of Man (regardless if you are a brother in Christ or not).

Since "brotherhood of man" in Masonry is clearly based upon our common humanity and not upon any religion, why make the completely irrelevant comment about "brother in Christ," which is a totally different issue?


But hey, "thanks for your posts and invaluable disinformation."

 

[Rev Wayne]

"A Mason's primary duty is his duty to God."
That’s what Christians primary duty is, to love God with all one has.

Great! No conflict.

"To relieve the distressed, is a duty incumbent on all men, but particularly on Masons, who are linked together by an indissoluble chain of sincere affection."
That’s what Christians do, to love ones neighbour, … Matthew 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.”

Great!No conflict here either. And in Masonry, "to love one's neighbor," as you put it, is referred to as the "Royal Law," just as James refers to it in the New Testament. Maybe you were not aware of that.

"The plumb admonishes us to walk uprightly in our several stations, before God and men, squaring our actions by the square of virtue, and remembering that we are traveling upon the level of time to that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns."
ForChristians that’s what the blood does, it cleanses and washes us clean, walking upright doesn’t do it for ourselves, faith in Christ does it.

You seem to be forgetting that the Bible is where the plumb lesson comes from. And you also seem to be unaware that it is a VERY common biblical admonition to "walk uprightly," although it is more of an OT admonition than NT. And even with faith in Christ, it is not automatic. Galatians 2:14 is a good example:

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Paul was delivering this admonition to James, Peter, John, and Barnabas. These were not just men who had faith in Christ, they were described by Paul as those who "seem to be pillars." Yet Paul had to admonish them, because as he said, "they walked not uprightly."


They were no different than anyone else, faith in Christ was not some kind of automatic magic button that precluded any need for action on their part.

Hence the need for admonitions to walk uprightly. And boy does the New Testament have some admonitions for us concerning how we walk:

"walk in the day" (John 11:9)

"walk while you have the Light" (John 12:35)

"Walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4)

"walk after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1)

"walk honestly" (Rom. 13:13)

"walk by faith" (2 Cor. 5:7)

"walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16)

"walk in good works" (Eph. 2:10)

"Walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you are called" (Eph. 4:1)

"walk in love" (Eph. 5:2)

"Walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8)

"walk circumspectly" (Eph. 5:15)

"walk worthy of the Lord" Col. 1:10)

"walk in Him" (Col. 2:6)

"Walk in wisdom" (Col. 4:5)

"walk worthy of God" (1 Th. 2:12)

"walk as He walked" (I Jn. 2:6)

"Walk in truth" (3 Jn. 1:4)

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

Great! No conflict.

Of course its conflict, it’s a Christian’s primary duty to love God. You said it was a freemasons but you have already admitted some freemasons don’t do that, they worship Allah or Brahma and not God.
Your statement is incorrect, a Mason's primary duty is therefore NOT his duty to God but his duty to whatever his god is.
Deception!

 

[wayseer]

]Deception!

Maybe those Christians who still insist on believing in a theist God are the ones deceiving themselves.

 

[O.F.F.]

To Rev Wayne,

Of course its conflict, it’s a Christian’s primary duty to love God. You said it was a freemasons but you have already admitted some freemasons don’t do that, they worship Allah or Brahma and not God. Your statement is incorrect, a Mason's primary duty is therefore NOT his duty to God but his duty to whatever his god is. Deception!

Masonry teaches that there is one God and men of all religions worship that one God using a variety of different names. So no matter how much a Mason insists that he only worships the God of the Bible, as a Mason he tacitly worships the demon god GAOTU created by Freemasonry. For the Bible teaches that all false gods are demons (1 Cor 10:19-21).

The Masonic belief in this syncretistic, polytheistic demon, wrapped up into one deity, was explained in my earlier quote by the Grand Lodge of Indiana:

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being (singular) is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

In the Q&A pamphlet, Opening the Doors to Freemasonry, distributed by the Grand Lodge of Indiana to those seeking Masonic membership, it answers the question "What are the requirements for membership?"

He must profess his belief in the existence of a Supreme Being (singular), by what ever name he may be known.

The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, by Manly Palmer Hall, explains this Masonic heresy further:

The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding the oneness of all spiritual truth.

Masons will argue that Manly Hall wrote this book 30 years before he even became a Mason. So what? That's irrelevant to the fact that what he wrote is a Masonic truth. For that reason, most Grand Lodge libraries carry his work as recommended reading material for its members. The Grand Lodge of Louisiana supports Hall's explanation with these words:

To the altar of Freemasonry all men bring their most votive offerings. Around it all men, whether they have received their teachings from Confucius, Zoroaster, Moses, Mohammed or the founder of the Christian religion--just so long as they believe in the universality of the fatherhood of God and universality of the brotherhood of man--meet upon a common level. The Jew returns to his synagogue, the Mohammedan to his mosque and the Christian to his temple--each better prepared for the solemn duties of life by the associations in this universal brotherhood.

So our admonition to the Mason who professes to be a "Christian" is this:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1​

 

[Rev Wayne]

Of course its conflict, it’s a Christian’s primary duty to love God. You said it was a freemasons but you have already admitted some freemasons don’t do that, they worship Allah or Brahma and not God.

So? What does that mean: "some other Mason worships Allah or Brahma, so therefore I don't love God?" How does that work, pray tell, and where is the common sense in a strange notion like that? How does someone else's worship of some other God, affect anything about MY love of God? Or maybe you're trying to say, "Some other Mason fails in HIS duty to love God, loving 'Allah or Brahma' instead--so therefore somehow I'M responsible for it?" You sound like you're trying to make the Christian responsible for what someone ELSE believes, which is patently absurd.

And I can't help but notice your statement: the "Christian's primary duty is to love GOD"; "some worship Allah or Brahma and not GOD." Being a little careless, aren't you? This forum is open and available for ANYBODY to come and read. Aren't you afraid that by your use of the generic word GOD, someone who worships "Allah or Brahma" may show up here, read your comments, take "God" to mean either Allah or Brahma, and thereby make you guilty of the very same thing (whatever it is)?

The whole idea is absurd. Our courts allow a person to be sworn in for testimony on the sacred book of their choice. I'm sure Christians are present as it takes place. So when the one swearing the person in says, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you GOD?" and the person being sworn in takes "GOD" to mean "Allah or Brahma," then do you realize that by your logic, you are making every Christian in that courtroom guilty of SOMETHING that you keep railing against, though it's not exactly clear what?

Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him.

Christians who are not lodge members love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions who are not lodge members love and worship God as they see Him.

No difference, or can't you see that? The only difference is this:

Christians and adherents of other religions who are NOT lodge members generally have no common venue through which they might possibly even meet, much less get to know one another.

But the Christian Mason and the Mason of another religion have the common venue of Freemasonry, where they have the opportunity to come to know one another despite their religious differences (potentially anyway, I've met nothing but Christians there so far), thereby developing "true friendship among those who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance." And somehow Masonry's critics don't see the value in that. I suppose that means they prefer to view those of other religions as objects of detestation, useful only for the purpose of invading their country when they get us ticked off; and rather than trying to make a friend of someone different and thereby develop a bridge of understanding that transcends our differences, I suppose they much prefer, rather than trying to make a friend of such a person, trying instead to make a widow of his wife, and orphans of his children.

You guys can spin this thing seven ways from sundown, and you will not find the point of blame you are trying to create.

 

[O.F.F.]

Maybe those Christians who still insist on believing in a theist God are the ones deceiving themselves.

Spoken like a true Mason! Obviously you are suggesting we believe in the polytheistic/syncretistic god of Freemasonry (GAOTU) instead of the theisic God of Christianity. Perhaps you should consider removing your Anglican avatar.

 

[O.F.F.]

This was worth the temporary removal of you from my "ignore list."

But the "Christian" Mason and the Mason of another religion have the common venue of Freemasonry, . . .

And a common deity in Freemasonry, which you apparently support:

Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him.

So by this statement you are admitting that ALL Masons worship the same god, but those of non-Christian religions see Him differently. You meant this so much, you reiterated it by saying it twice:

Christians who are not lodge members love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions who are not lodge members love and worship God as they see Him. No difference, or can't you see that?

In other words, there is NO difference between their god and our God, except the name we choose to call Him. Or can't you see that? One who calls himself a "Christian" pastor going on record making such a claim, ought to be ashamed of himself.

The only difference is this: Christians and adherents of other religions who are NOT lodge members generally have no common venue through which they might possibly even meet, much less get to know one another.

Yes they do, it's called one's home, where you can invite neighbors who are adherents of other religions over for coffee, dinner, a movie or a family cookout, or meet them for a round of golf, etc. It's called the workplace where you can share coffee breaks, lunch or dinner after work and get to know one another. And, it's called a church where you can invite adherents of other religions to visit and hear the gospel preached. And, hopefully by doing these things over time, they may come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

In other words, you don't have to violate the First Commandment by joining an unholy, spiritually demonic brotherhood in order to develop genuine friendships among those who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance. All you have to do is be a good Christian neighbor and love them into the Kingdom of God and love them into a right relationship with His Son.

 

[O.F.F.]

I suppose that means they prefer to view those of other religions as objects of detestation, useful only for the purpose of invading their country when they get us ticked off; and rather than trying to make a friend of someone different and thereby develop a bridge of understanding that transcends our differences, I suppose they much prefer, rather than trying to make a friend of such a person, trying instead to make a widow of his wife, and orphans of his children.

I suppose this means you were in favor of them invading our country on 911 when they made widows and orphans of over 3000 Americans. How else would you have expected us to respond; by joining a Muslim Lodge and embrace them on the five-points of fellowship? As if it's not bad enough that you lost your religion through apostasy from Christianity to Freemasonry; you have also apparently lost your patriotism to the United States of America. Shame on you, pastor.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

So?

So you can’t say freemasons worship God if some don’t. All you can say is most freemasons worship God, others worship other gods.

How does someone else's worship of some other God,

rather some other god.
Not God.

"Some other Mason fails in HIS duty to love God, loving 'Allah or Brahma' instead--so therefore somehow I'M responsible for it?"

If you want to know what I am saying you will have to address what I am saying and not what you I am perhaps saying.

You sound like you're trying to make the Christian responsible for what someone ELSE believes, which is patently absurd.

No I cant sound like that as I am referring to what freemasonry requires and does and not the Christian.

And I can't help but notice your statement: the "Christian's primary duty is to love GOD"; "some worship Allah or Brahma and not GOD." Being a little careless, aren't you? This forum is open and available for ANYBODY to come and read. Aren't you afraid that by your use of the generic word GOD, someone who worships "Allah or Brahma" may show up here, read your comments, take "God" to mean either Allah or Brahma, and thereby make you guilty of the very same thing (whatever it is)?

If they are as confused as you they might, but they might see I didn’t write quite what you attributed to me.
No I am not worried because I have already explained on this thread the difference between them and thus why they aren’t the same. Furthermore if they read it properly they will see Allah and Brahma is not God, ‘not’ being the key word.
Aren’t you worried that if some come here and see freemasonry calls whatever god someone worships gaotu, they will get the impression al gods are the same?

The whole idea is absurd. Our courts allow a person to be sworn in for testimony on the sacred book of their choice.

Sacred to them but not to you, as a Christian you don’t find other religions books sacred, you believe Jesus is the risen Son of God and the truth the way and the light don’t you? Freemasonry doesn’t require the distinction however.

So when the one swearing the person in says, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you GOD?" and the person being sworn in takes "GOD" to mean "Allah or Brahma," then do you realize that by your logic, you are making every Christian in that courtroom guilty of SOMETHING that you keep railing against, though it's not exactly clear what?

I am not making them guilty, as Christians they are making themselves guilty, how can the one who doesn’t recognise God get help from God?

Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him.

they don’t see Him, how can someone who doesn’t know Jesus Christ worship Him? You are talking nonsense.

Christians and adherents of other religions who are NOT lodge members generally have no common venue through which they might possibly even meet, much less get to know one another.

Rubbish, for a start there are few more hospitable than Muslims, and Christians are to practice hospitality. What about our homes, and public meeting places. I know quite a number of Muslims and we eat at each others houses, so what use would freemasonry be?

I also know that Allah isn’t the same as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which I have learnt from them and their religion and the books they consider sacred, so I know freemasonry is a deception.

And somehow Masonry's critics don't see the value in that. I suppose that means they prefer to view those of other religions as objects of detestation,

No they love people of other religions but they hate freemasonry.

and rather than trying to make a friend of someone different and thereby develop a bridge of understanding that transcends our differences,

The difference is we don’t have the same god. Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,” what can transcend that? Doesn’t stop anyone getting to know someone and be good friends.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,
gaotu isnt a diety, it a reference to a god, whichever one the freemason believes in, so there is no point in asking the freemason whether they believe in god because some wont.

 

[AoDoA]

the problem is that these Christian freemasons seem to think they are just a part of another organization which involves unbelievers etc like many other Christians

but this is an organization with specific ties to the Occult...Occult rituals and Occult goals at its helm

its not the same thing:

Back in 1927, Freemason W.L. Wilmhurst saw the dawning of the Aquarian Age as the fulfillment of the "Plan". In The Meaning of Masonry, p.4, he writes: ​

In this new Aquarian age, when many individuals and groups are working in various ways for the eventual restoration of the mysteries, an increasing number of aspirants are beginning to recognize that Freemasonry may well be the vehicle for this achievement ​

He would be well proud, I’m sure, of today’s mainstream acceptance of those very same occult mysteries. Another passage on page 46-47, proves the teaching of Freemasonry is the same as New Age beliefs: ​

He begins his Masonic career as the natural man; he ends it by becoming through its discipline, a regenerated man... This the evolution of man into superman—was always the purpose of the ancient Mysteries, and the real purpose of modern Masonry is, not the social and charitable purposes to which so much attention is paid, but the expediting of the spiritual evolution of those who aspire to perfect their own nature and transform it into a more god-like quality. ​

 

[AoDoA]

Benjamin Creme writes: ​

“The New Religion will manifest, for instance, through organizations like Masonry. In Freemasonry is embedded the core or the secret heart of the occult mysteries, wrapped up on number, metaphor and symbol ...”

- The Reappearance of the Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, p.87 ​

Freemason and co-founder of Lucifer Publishing Company (now called Lucis Trust), Foster Bailey, concurs, ​

"Is it not possible from a contemplation of this side of Masonic teaching that it may provide all that is necessary for the formulation of a universal religion?"​

(The Spirit of Masonry, p.113) ​

Foster Bailey states that Masonry, ​

"is the descendant of, or is founded upon, a divinely imparted religion..." This religion he explains, "...was the first United World Religion. Then came the era of separation of many religions and sectarianism. Today we are working again towards a World Universal Religion." ​

(ibid p.31) ​

To biblical students these are shocking admissions and it adds fuel to the charge of a Masonic Antichrist in our midst. ​

"It is these Mysteries which Christ will restore upon His re-appearance," Alice Bailey reveals, "thus reviving the churches in a new form, and restoring the hidden Mystery." ​

The Reappearance of the Christ, p. 122​

Bailey is giving these "revelations" by her channeled Master Djwhal Khul — a disembodied "Ascended Master". Her "Christ" is indeed the Antichrist in the strictest sense of the word. Antichrist means substitute for or in place of Christ. She goes on to say that,​

"These ancient Mysteries were originally given to humanity by the Hierarchy [of which Djwhal Khul is a part of] and contain the entire clue to the evolutionary process, hidden in numbers, in ritual, in words and in symbology; these veil the secret of man’s origin and destiny, picturing to him in rite and ritual, the long, long path which he must tread, back into the light."



Foster Bailey also claimed that Hitler was a disciple:

​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]New Age references to Hitler are sometimes veiled in positive generalities. Examples are Alice's husband Foster Bailey, and David Spangler, a Findhorn leader (a NA community in Scotland where the goat-god Pan is worshiped). F. Bailey tactfully does not name Hitler but describes a disciple who tried to put the Plan of the New Age gods into action "on a regional scale in the Rhine River valley" (_Running God's Plan_, p.14).

[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Hitler, who lifted a distressed people upon his shoulders; Lenin, the idealist; Stalin and Franco are all expressions of the Shamballa force and of certain little-understood energies.... We call these people dictators, demagogues.... But all these leaders are... being used to engineer great and needed changes and to alter the face of civilisation." (_Externalisation_ II, p.134-5)[/FONT]

Alice Bailey

 

[Rev Wayne]

This was worth the temporary removal of you from my "ignore list."

Don't worry, it'll get worse for you real quick.

And a common deity in Freemasonry, which you apparently support

No common deity, any more than Christianity has a common deity with religions which might refer to deity with the English generic word "God."

So by this statement you are admitting that ALL Masons worship the same god, but those of non-Christian religions see Him differently.

Don't be silly. "Christians in the lodge love and worship Jesus Christ; those of other religions love and worship God as they see Him" isn't an automatic statement of a "same god" at all. Heck, I didn't even flesh it out with an example at all. Had I done so, your claim would have been immediately shown false. That being the case, let's put it to the lie right now. Observe:


"Christian lodge members love and worship Jesus Christ."
"Hindu lodge members love and worship Brahma."

Now that looks to ME like a very DIFFERENT god. What it looks like to you, I can't imagine, but your statement is false.

One who calls himself a "Christian" pastor going on record making such a claim, ought to be ashamed of himself.

One who calls himself a "Christian" while going on record making such false inventions and accusing other people of them, ought to be even more ashamed.

Yes they do, it's called one's home, where you can invite neighbors who are adherents of other religions over for coffee, dinner, a movie or a family cookout, or meet them for a round of golf, etc. It's called the workplace where you can share coffee breaks, lunch or dinner after work and get to know one another.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

How many Muslims and Hindus have you had over to your house lately, Michael, and how many of them have you played golf with, or gone to dinner and a movie? When you DO start doing any such thing, perhaps THEN you can make this claim, but I don't think a single person here takes you serious on this. What I said was, they HAVE a common venue, not "They COULD have one if they invited each other over or played golf together. But thanks for the comic interlude, it's always welcome.

In other words, you don't have to violate the First Commandment by joining an unholy, spiritually demonic brotherhood in order to develop genuine friendships among those who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance.

And you don't have to try to soothe your guilty conscience over your own failure to do those things, by labeling those who DO provide such a venue as "demonic."

I suppose this means you were in favor of them invading our country on 911 when they made widows and orphans of over 3000 Americans. How else would you have expected us to respond

Well, you COULD act a LITTLE bit civil, rather than trying to misrepresent someone before simply ASKING them what they meant. The fact is, what I said had nothing to do with 9/11 at all, nor necessarily with the Middle East at all, I spoke of war in general. After all, we were at war with Japan in World War II, a nation of people who for the most part are adherents of religions other than Christianity. The Korean War would be another example.

War has no winners, and it never has. Trying to justify wars just because you want to win an argument with someone is even more of a losing proposition.

And once again you are guilty of presumption and misrepresentation. Shame on you, "layman."