The 144,000 X 2 = Israel & Gentile = 2 Witnesses

[1whirlwind]

I have always believed the 144,000 was one group mentioned in two different scriptures. But...was I correct?

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, which were REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

• I thought the "new song" was the Song Of Moses [Deuteronomy 32:1] which "Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended." [Deu.31:30] Upon reflection...how can that ancient song be the "new" song? If it is a "new" song then it is with a new group and has a new theme OR it is a "new song" to the 144,000 in [14:3] as they were not of the group taught that song through the ages. So they sing it as if it was a new song...."as it were a new song," for to them...it is.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were REDEEMED from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

• This is just an observance and has nothing to do with this subject but notice that it is speaking of the 144,000 in 14:4. I love it when that happens....and it does - often!
  
  To me, being "virgins" in this context means not being polluted with the religious system...idolatry with Satan. "Redeemed" means to be purchased.....purchased with His blood!
  
  We see that the 144,000, the redeemed virgins, are the only ones that can sing the New Song. Where else do we learn of the New Song?

Revelation 5:8-10 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by Thy blood out of every KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

• They, the four beasts and 24 elders, were singing the New Song and only the 144,000 redeemed virgins can do that so these must be part of that same group. And they are not Israel as they were mixed from different people, nations, etc.
  
  We also know that God's elect, the manchild, will be "priests of God and reign on earth" so they too are in the group singing the New Song.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.

• So, that is one group of 144,000 but are they the same as.....

Revelation 7:3-4 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the TREES, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

• The "sea" represent multitudes of people and "trees" also means people. So we see that these 144,000 are....the tribes of the children of Israel. The other 144,000 mentioned are "redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE AND NATION."

Seeing that we know....there are two different groups of the 144,000. They are the two witnesses, the natural and the wild olive trees.

 

[zeke37]

well, i did not get that.....when i read


i read them sealed in 7
and the same gathered in 14


the gentile belivers are not mentioned...directly...

Now, from heaven, there are gentiles in the crowd...

but these on earth who are still virgins, are not gentiles

 

[1whirlwind]

well, i did not get that.....when i read


i read them sealed in 7
and the same gathered in 14


the gentile belivers are not mentioned...directly...

Now, from heaven, there are gentiles in the crowd...

but these on earth who are still virgins, are not gentiles

Hi Zeke,

Those from earth are the virgin bride. Those from the tribes are the wife, from the first age.

One group of 144,000 were specifically named as being Israel, from all tribes. The other group of 144,000 were redeemed out of EVERY nation, tongue, etc.

 

[zeke37]

Hi Zeke,

Hello....

Those from earth are the virgin bride.

agreed

Those from the tribes are the wife, from the first age.

disagree

One group of 144,000 were specifically named as being Israel, from all tribes.

agreed

The other group of 144,000 were redeemed out of EVERY nation, tongue, etc.

actually my friend, the scripture does not say that.


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (leads us back to Rev7)
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: (leads us to Rev19) and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. (same 144,000)
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

there is IMO no need to seperate them into two groups, nor any reason.
there is no reason why these cannot be from the 12 tribes and be the only ones redeemed among men. that is what most believe, i think!!!

are you suggesting that 2 different groups of 144,000 are mentioned in Rev14 alone?

perhaps I am not following.

 

[1whirlwind]

Hi Zeke,

Hello....

Those from earth are the virgin bride.

agreed

Those from the tribes are the wife, from the first age.

disagree

I'm open to correction from someone I admire so fire away. I will say that I base why I believe the wife is Israel on....

1 Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
​

I understand that to mean that the virgin bride, unmarried woman, (one group of 144,000) "careth for the things of the Lord." They are indwelt by Him and take His word forward. The other group of 144,000, the married woman, the "wife" is trying to please Him....she is the misled church. She loves Him but is following traditions of men. She, the wife, must be sealed with truth before the end. We are either those helping with the sealing or those that have been sealed and now help others. I don't think it matters which group we are....just so the sealing is accomplished.

One group of 144,000 were specifically named as being Israel, from all tribes.

agreed

The other group of 144,000 were redeemed out of EVERY nation, tongue, etc.

actually my friend, the scripture does not say that.


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (leads us back to Rev7)
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: (leads us to Rev19) and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. (same 144,000)
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Scripture does say that when you connect the verses....

Revelation 5:8-10 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by Thy blood out of every KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

Revelation 14:3 Andthey sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

there is IMO no need to seperate them into two groups, nor any reason.
there is no reason why these cannot be from the 12 tribes and be the only ones redeemed among men. that is what most believe, i think!!!

That is what I too believed...they were the same 144,000, but no longer.

Revelation 7:9 After this (after Israel is sealed) I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (13-15) And one of the elders answererd, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His Temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

One group of 144,000 are the tribes of Israel. The other group of 144,000 are redeemed from earth, (nations, kindreds, people, tongues) and they are the "great multitude."

are you suggesting that 2 different groups of 144,000 are mentioned in Rev14 alone?

perhaps I am not following.

I haven't considered where they are mentioned Zeke....I just don't know.

 

[AoDoA]

I don't know if they are 2 groups or not(my guess is not) but I agree that they are the witnesses possibly but more assuredly I think they are those who do not die

"not all will sleep"