There's something about Mary.......

[MamaZ]

All of which is very nice and has what to do with the OP?

peace,

Anglian

Answering a post from above is all.

 

[MamaZ]

There are many different beliefs and understandings about Mary, the woman God chose to give birth to His Son. If we rely solely upon what the Bible has to say about her, we find some very different truths about her than most traditional teachings present. What Jesus said about her, and what the Gospel writers said about her, proves that many of us place her "on a pedestal" that God never intended for her to be placed on. I will point out passages in the Gospels where she is mentioned, and let's see what is actually being said about her.

First, as most of us know, Mary had children other than Jesus. He was her first born, and she was a virgin when He was conceived and until he was born. But she and Joseph had several children after Jesus was born.

Matthew 13
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and ]udas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us?

Nothing is said in the Gospels about Jesus or His family from the circumstances of His birth until He was 12 years old, when Jewish males are considered to have "come of age." In the 2nd chapter of Luke, there is the story of Mary and Joseph losing track of Jesus, searching frantically for Him, and finding Him in the temple conversing with the Jewish scholars. Upon finding Him there, Mary scolds Him and lets him know how displeased she was about what he did (Luke 2:48.) And His reply to her was not the reply of a sorrowful and repentant child:

Luke 2
49 And he said unto them,: How is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

And in the next verse, it says that Mary and Joseph had no idea what He was talking about. Jesus, a 12 year old whom they raised, asked them why they were bothering looking for Him. Didn't they know that He was supposed to be "about his Father's business?" They didn't understand why He didn't empathize with their dilemma, and they may have also not understood who Jesus was referring to when He spoke of his "Father." It is at this point in his life that Jesus seems to be establishing a definite distinction between Himself and His human parents. And he is letting them know that their authority over Him has ended. We don't know if He ever referred to Joseph as "father." But we do know from the age of 12 on, He knew who His real Father was. As for Mary, we also do not know if He ever referred to her as "mother." It is a fact, however, that He is never quoted in the Gospels as referring to Mary as "mother." Look at how He addresses her in the following verses:

John 2
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Not only does He call her by the generic term "Woman," but again, He asks her why she is bothering Him and why she assumes that He is obligated to her. Then later, while He is on the cross and sees her and one of His disciples standing there, says:

John 19
26 Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Not only does He call her "Woman" here again, but he tells His disciple that Mary is his mother and he is her son. We know that this is not physically the case, so either he meant it figuratively, or literally in a spiritual sense. The following verses show that He meant it in a spiritual sense:

Matthew 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

There is no mistaking what Jesus is saying here. He is saying that His family consists of only those who believe in Him and follow Him. In other words, the fact that Mary gave birth to Him does not entitle her to any special treatment. The same with His physical siblings. His spiritual family is the only family that matters to Him. It takes precedence over His physical mother and brothers and sisters. As a matter of fact, the following verses state this fact quite clearly:

Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 19
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

The writers of the Gospels often refer to Mary as Jesus' mother, but there are instances where they refer to her as the mother of certain of His physical siblings:

Mark 15
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salo'me;

Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

It can only be speculated as to why Mary is sometimes referred to as the mother of Jesus' siblings instead of Him. But it is no speculation to say that Jesus made every effort to let His family and everyone else know that God is His true Father and that only those who believe in Him and follow Him are His true family. And the same goes for all Christians. The spiritual family is the true family of born again believers. And Christians who allows their physical family to come between or before their spiritual family are not following the will of God.

As for Mary, she can certainly be said to be blessed. Why God chose her to give birth to Jesus we have no clue. She was a sinner in need of salvation just like everyone else. She knew this was true, for this is what she told Elizabeth after she told her that she (Elizabeth) was going to give birth to another special person. Speaking of her own situation, she said:

Luke 1
46 My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

Mary knew that she was giving birth to her Savior. She may not have understood the difference between the physical and spiritual family and all that, but she did know that Jesus is the Messiah and Savior, and that she needed His salvation as did everyone else. Contrary to traditional understandings, Mary is no more or no less important or special to God than any one of us are. If Mary would not have accepted Jesus as her Savior, she would not have made it to Heaven. And in Heaven, I don't believe that she will have any special treatment or special place. God didn't choose her because she was better than any other woman. He chose her because the circumstances of her life, which He foreknew, would be the necessary circumstances for His Son to be born into and raised in. That's it. And we are not to view her or the disciples or Paul or Moses or Noah or anyone else as being anymore special or divine than any of us are who do the will of God. Mary was not voluntarily doing the will of God by becoming pregnant and giving birth to Jesus. She had no choice. On the other hand, she did do the will of God by recognizing Who Jesus is and understanding him to be her Savior.

One other thing worth mentioning.......Mary is not a virgin!!! She was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus. But she had other children afterwards, and therefore cannot be said to still be a virgin. There are some who view her as a perpetual virgin, and for this and other reasons see her as having special status in Heaven. But this is a figment of their imagination.

 

[Anglian]

I think it is now well established that no one here is putting St. Mary above her Son. It is also well-established by now that in prayer to her we are employing intercessory prayer, that is asking her to join with us in prayer to God. We are doing what the angel said and calling her 'blessed' in all generations.

Why some folk seem to have a problem with this is also well established. Still, always good to go over this again.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

How does anyone know what Mary is praying?

 

[Anglian]

How does anyone know what Mary is praying?

The same way we know what books are in the NT.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Wow the Holy Spirit has never told me what Mary was praying or even if she was praying.. I don't even know what my brothers and Sisters here on earth pray unless I am with them as they pray..

 

[Anglian]

Wow the Holy Spirit has never told me what Mary was praying or even if she was praying.. I don't even know what my brothers and Sisters here on earth pray unless I am with them as they pray..

Just goes to show

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Show what? I don't see in scripture even the leading of praying to people who are now clothed in their heavenly home awaiting upon the ressurection. So therefore it is a practice that goes beyond what is written. Prone to error as I see it

 

[Anglian]

Show what? ...

The problems which arise when one thinks that all Christ left us was a book of instructions.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Well as Jesus said.. It is written.

 

[Anglian]

Well as Jesus said.. It is written.

Indeed, and He also wept.

He was, of course, referring to the OT, and weeping over the death of His friend. But I guess we can take His words out of context and apply them to things He was not referring to.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Indeed, and He also wept.

He was, of course, referring to the OT, and weeping over the death of His friend. But I guess we can take His words out of context and apply them to things He was not referring to.

peace,

Anglian

Yes and Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. So if Jesus says it is written does it not also mean the NT scriptures? Or has Jesus changed over time?

 

[Anglian]

Yes and Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. So if Jesus says it is written does it not also mean the NT scriptures? Or has Jesus changed over time?

If Jesus had meant it to apply to the then unwritten NT He would have said so. You choose to apply to His words a meaning for which there is no Scriptural warrant and then claim it.

He founded a Church. The Holy Spirit inspired the Evangelists and Apostles to record the Lord's words, and the words were also passed on orally. That Church then collected what it knew was the genuine Apostolic deposit. It knew there was no contradiction between that and Marian veneration. Those who take only one part of what the Lord left miss a great deal. They are, however, able to make up for it with their ingenuity about what He must have meant but never quite said in so many words.

Some are equally ingenious about the words of angels, and apply what the angel said about Sty. Mary alone to all women.

Once we apply our own ingenuity to a part of the Apostolic deposit, and especially when we remove that part, the Bible, from the rest of the context, there's no limit to what we can do.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

The written in the NT is as ever powerful as the written in the OT.. This is why we have the written to guide us and reveal to us.. He founded the world. He called out believers in Him and now we are His body. His Holy Spirit guides each and every believer personally as well as His whole Body. He has given us His written word for a reason. So that we may know what is truth and what goes beyond what is written knowing that the written word is Truth.. These extra beliefs brought on by oral tradition need to have thier roots in the written accounts and not in mens logic.. This is why I stick to the Written account of the scriptures. No where in Scripture do we even get a glimps of the Apostles teaching us to pray to anyone other than The Father..

 

[Anglian]

The written in the NT is as ever powerful as the written in the OT.. This is why we have the written to guide us and reveal to us.. He founded the world. He called out believers in Him and now we are His body. His Holy Spirit guides each and every believer personally as well as His whole Body. He has given us His written word for a reason. So that we may know what is truth and what goes beyond what is written knowing that the written word is Truth.. These extra beliefs brought on by oral tradition need to have thier roots in the written accounts and not in mens logic.. This is why I stick to the Written account of the scriptures. No where in Scripture do we even get a glimps of the Apostles teaching us to pray to anyone other than The Father..

Indeed, but since nowhere in the written Scriptures does it tell you what they should be, in reality, like the rest of us, you have to go outside Scripture to know what is in it; so you no more stick solely to the written word than the rest of us.

If the Holy Spirit is guiding each of us, can you explain why He is guiding us all to such different views?

No where in Scripture do we see the Apostles relying solely on the written word, so why do you think we have to?

peace,

Anglian

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I do not look at Mary as my mother. I look at Mary as my sister in the Lord. For we are born of Gods Spirit and not Marys.

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. ... And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What St. Paul says of himself is necessarily more applicable to her who actually formed Christ in her womb. All the elect must be formed in the womb of the Mother of God.

My little children, of whom I am in labour again, until Christ be formed in you.

I will quote at length from de Montfort:

29. God the Father wishes Mary to be the mother of his children until the end of time and so he says to her, "Dwell in Jacob"[1], that is to say, take up your abode permanently in my children, in my holy ones represented by Jacob, and not in the children of the devil and sinners represented by Esau.

30. Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life.

An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.

31. God the Son wishes to form himself, and, in a manner of speaking, become incarnate every day in his members through his dear Mother. To her he said: "Take Israel for your inheritance."[1] It is as if he said, God the Father has given me as heritage all the nations of the earth, all men good and evil, predestinate and reprobate. To the good I shall be father and advocate, to the bad a just avenger, but to all I shall be a judge. But you, my dear Mother, will have for your heritage and possession only the predestinate represented by Israel. As their loving mother, you will give them birth, feed them and rear them. As their queen, you will lead, govern and defend them.

32. "This one and that one were born in her."[2] According to the explanation of some of the Fathers, the first man born of Mary is the God-man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ, the head of mankind, is born of her, the predestinate, who are members of this head, must also as a necessary consequence be born of her. One and the same mother does not give birth to the head without the members nor to the members without the head, for these would be monsters in the order of nature. In the order of grace likewise the head and the members are born of the same mother. If a member of the mystical body of Christ, that is, one of the predestinate, were born of a mother other than Mary who gave birth to the head, he would not be one of the predestinate, nor a member of Jesus Christ, but a monster in the order of grace.

---------
[1]

Then the creator of all things commanded, and said to me: and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle, and he said to me: Let your dwelling be in Jacob, and your inheritance in Israel, and take root in my elect.

[2]

Shall not Sion say: This man and that man is born in her? And the Highest himself has founded her.

 

[GailMc]

Hello jpark! You state this:

Yes, I agree. Perpetual virginity is incorrect.

Nearly every theologian disagrees with something concerning salvation, yet they all seem to agree with something concerning Mary.

Augustine, John Calvin, John Wesley, Martin Luther, Jacobus Arminius...

Are you a follower of John Calvin or Jesus Christ? If you look into the errors that denying the Perpetual Virginity of Mary lead others to on these boards, you will find that they quickly deny the divinity of Christ, thus they begin down the road to atheism or perhaps another denomination where they won't sin so much, meantime you could stop arguing against the Church and agree. If the ills you struggle with because you try to rob God of His glory with words against His Mother seem obvious to you perhaps you could pray for God to take that sickness of yours away on your knees. That way you could love Him by loving His Mother too instead of remaining away from the Church to believe something else. I hope and pray you give up all this speciousness. Looks silly.

Peace and all good,

Gail

 

[GailMc]

Dear bbbbbbb, you state this:

One question that has crossed my own benighted brain is why do some Christians get so extremely worked up at the very hint that Mary and Joseph might have had marital intimacy? For most Protestants, this issue is, in the words of CaliforniaJosiah, a matter of pious opinion. Nobody's salvation rests upon it any more than one person's opinion that any one of the various skulls of John the Baptist was actually his. We Protestants do not attach the taint of sin to marital intimacy nor do we exalt on a higher spiritual plane those of us, like myself, who happen to be virgins. One's sexuality becomes sinful only when exercised outside the boundaries of God's law as in adultery and fornication. I doubt that anyone here would ever think that a legitimate marriage such as that between Joseph and Mary could have been described as adulterous or immoral in any biblical sense of those words.

It seems to me that Catholic and Orthodox intrinsically perceive any and all forms of sexual intercourse as inherently sinful so that the one who abstains from them, even within the bounds of a legitimate marital relationship is somehow more spiritual and more deserving of sainthood. Thus it is that a disproportionate number of recognized saints in the Catholic Church were unmarried and, thus, virgins.

I, for one, am grateful that my ancestor, who was married and begot children, became a saint during the medieval period prior to the obsession with virginity. Otherwise, I might not be here to write this. Now, think about that a while.

I'll try and answer your question. Firstly, denying the Perpetual Virginity of Mary denies that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary at the Annunciation. God was Incarnate at that moment in time of a Virgin, just as He said. To deny this creates a denial in the mind of the person thinking about it that could take them out of His hand. It is His glory to show men how He came into the world to redeem us from our sins. Some go on and on thinking about it and living it and wind up blaspheming Him by blaspheming His Mother. I think that some who do so show how quickly they turn into church hoppers looking for some other place to spread their denials of God around and some I've watched stayed atheistic till the day they died. It is a sin that leads to other sins some of which you may never escape the consequences of. God died for it all. Bring you confusion to a Confessional soon. Perhaps if you can do that, God can heal you disbelief.

Peace and all good,

Gail

 

[GailMc]

Dear MamaZ You seem sooooo confused. It is good that you are beginning to get over your denials that Jesus is Lord, but why haven't you removed the JW stuff from your pop ups?

Yes and Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. So if Jesus says it is written does it not also mean the NT scriptures? Or has Jesus changed over time?

Cute baby! Yours?

Peace and all good,

Gail

P.S. If I was trying to get over that stuff I'd just ask God to remove that stuff from my mind and poof there it would go! Don't be so hard on yourself and those you insist deny God in front of you.

 

[JCFantasy23]

One question that has crossed my own benighted brain is why do some Christians get so extremely worked up at the very hint that Mary and Joseph might have had marital intimacy?

This always bugged me too. Their having sexual relation afterward is certainly not a sin but actually celebrating the blessing of marriage God gave them, the purity of the act within the marriage between the two people God joined together. To remain celibate seems the opposite to me. I see plenty of scripture indicating they did, indeed, have sexual relation afterwards. And there is no reason why they would not have.

When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
Matt 1:18 (ESV)

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matt 1:24-25 (ESV)

I'm sure the above scriptures have been posted and different viewpoints given on them, but I don't have the time nor the inclination to read every post in all these pages. It seems pretty clear to me just from those two in the beginning of Matthew.

But of course she was a virgin when she was pregnant with our Saviour.