Some Evangelical Christians evangelizing in predominantly Christian countries

[Kaella]

Those in the 16th century and beyond have one piece of the Truth = Christ. They have abandoned the rest, which makes living a life in Christ difficult because they do not have the tools to do so. One is more susceptible to fall away from the faith when one doesn't have all the tools and foundation to fight their spiritual warfare with the Devil daily. To be fair, this can and does happen in the Church...it happens to anyone who does not continue to struggle and grow in Christ.

When the choose is growth in Christ, that's not conducive with the water downed faith found in the churches represented by what i see on this forum.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And yet from the very first written evidence outside the scriptures, the universal Church knew exactly what it meant to gather and corporately worship. The Church continued to universally know this for 1600 years.

Where did this come from?
Were all the early Christians wrong?
Why did God wait 1600 years to reveal the truth?

Maybe what was revealed in the 16th Century is not the truth after all!

I do not know of any Protestant denomination that claims the God revealed anything at all in the sixteenth century. Rather, they believe that God's revelation was completed with the closing of the canon of scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Maybe it's at the bottom of the pile of the dustheap.

The dustheap, although not nearly as old or as large as the one in Rome, is more difficult to locate, but it is a rich source for those busybodies who are fascinated with it. Dustheaps, after all, do have their attractions.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There seems to be the opinion here
with this as an example: "

that Russia and the US should be the same; a view which has historically played out in US foreign policy re: the US attitude toward other nations as well.

It is one thing to hold one's own mindset as 'normative' (for example the US or Russian mindset, as different though 'normal' in particular to each); it is quite another thing to require that mindset be held by another nation.

As I pointed out before, the US (in the Philippines and in 20th c. Alaska, among the native population there) indeed did seek to "impose" its mindset through the use of Missionaries.
The goal was to change the culture through "protestanizing" the people there (in the Philippines, away from RCatholicism; in Alaska, away from Aleut/Russian Orthodoxy).
Within the contiguous US, there was also the effort to impose our US mindset on the Native Americans here (the "Indian Schools").

The missionaries in the Philippines were equal in their treatment of its citizens. They reached out to both Roman Catholics and to Muslims, as they still do. Should one say that the Muslims should not be evangelized? If so, then the Catholic Church was very successful in not making any efforts to evangelize them in the centuries of Spanish occupation. BTW, the Spanish were also equal opportunity in their forced conversion of the Filipinos as well as other "barbarous" natives of their colonies.

 

[Thekla]

The missionaries in the Philippines were equal in their treatment of its citizens. They reached out to both Roman Catholics and to Muslims, as they still do. Should one say that the Muslims should not be evangelized? If so, then the Catholic Church was very successful in not making any efforts to evangelize them in the centuries of Spanish occupation. BTW, the Spanish were also equal opportunity in their forced conversion of the Filipinos as well as other "barbarous" natives of their colonies.

Extant testimony claims otherwise. There was the view in US foreign policy that "protestanizing" others was cheaper and more efficient way to introduce the US cultural (and economic) mindset.

The forcible reculturization of the American Indians in the contiguous US, as well as the activities of some missionaries in de-Catholicizing the Irish were other examples.

In the case of Russia in particular, the US protestant missionaries were involved in forcibly re-culturizing the Alaskan Orthodox (part of the Russian Orthodox Church). Children were forcibly taken from their families.

So when considering the attitude of Russia in this matter, three points are constantly ignored:

1. The right of a nation to self-determination.

2. The history of US missionary involvement in de-Orthodoxizing the Aleut.

3. The historical use of missionaries to introduce a new 'mindset' (which is a component in identity).

 

[Thekla]

On Alaska:

In my latest American Orthodox History podcast on Ancient Faith Radio, I spoke with Eric Peterson about Alaskan Orthodoxy in the period following the 1867 sale of Alaska by Russia to the United States. This was a tragic period, and for decades, a Presbyterian missionary named Rev. Sheldon Jackson ruled Alaska with an iron fist. He opposed anything native — languages, clothing, customs, and Orthodox Christianity. In his view, “Americanization” (which implied a conversion to Protestantism) was the only way for the “savage” Alaskan natives to become “civilized.”

In 1899, Bishop Nicholas (Ziorov), the outgoing head of the Russian Mission in America (who had just been replaced by St Tikhon), wrote a letter to U.S. President William McKinley, expressing his concerns over abuses in Alaska. He singled out Jackson, “Alaska’s irremovable guardian.” That letter was reprinted in newspapers across America, including the Alaska Mining Record (January 18, 1899). Here is a transcript: Alaska stands in need of radical reform in all directions. A limit must be set to the abuses of various companies, more especially of the Alaska Commercial Company, which for over thirty years, has had the uncontrolled management of affairs and has reduced the country’s hunting and fishing resources to absolute exhaustion, and the population to beggary and semi-starvation. A limit must be set to the abuses of officials who, as shown by the experience of many years, are sent there without any discrimination and exclusively on the recommendation of Alaska’s irremovable guardian, Sheldon Jackson. And, lastly, Alaska must be delivered from that man. By his sectarian propaganda he has introduced dissension, enmity and iniquity where those evils did not before exist. It was the Orthodox Greek Church which brought the light of truth to that country; why, then, try to drive her out of it by every means lawful or unlawful?

OrthodoxHistory.org » Blog Archive » A Letter to President McKinley

 

[Thekla]

On Alaska:

In my latest American Orthodox History podcast on Ancient Faith Radio, I spoke with Eric Peterson about Alaskan Orthodoxy in the period following the 1867 sale of Alaska by Russia to the United States. This was a tragic period, and for decades, a Presbyterian missionary named Rev. Sheldon Jackson ruled Alaska with an iron fist. He opposed anything native — languages, clothing, customs, and Orthodox Christianity. In his view, “Americanization” (which implied a conversion to Protestantism) was the only way for the “savage” Alaskan natives to become “civilized.”

In 1899, Bishop Nicholas (Ziorov), the outgoing head of the Russian Mission in America (who had just been replaced by St Tikhon), wrote a letter to U.S. President William McKinley, expressing his concerns over abuses in Alaska. He singled out Jackson, “Alaska’s irremovable guardian.” That letter was reprinted in newspapers across America, including the Alaska Mining Record (January 18, 1899). Here is a transcript: Alaska stands in need of radical reform in all directions. A limit must be set to the abuses of various companies, more especially of the Alaska Commercial Company, which for over thirty years, has had the uncontrolled management of affairs and has reduced the country’s hunting and fishing resources to absolute exhaustion, and the population to beggary and semi-starvation. A limit must be set to the abuses of officials who, as shown by the experience of many years, are sent there without any discrimination and exclusively on the recommendation of Alaska’s irremovable guardian, Sheldon Jackson. And, lastly, Alaska must be delivered from that man. By his sectarian propaganda he has introduced dissension, enmity and iniquity where those evils did not before exist. It was the Orthodox Greek Church which brought the light of truth to that country; why, then, try to drive her out of it by every means lawful or unlawful?

OrthodoxHistory.org » Blog Archive » A Letter to President McKinley

 

[Livindesert]

I still stand by my oringinal post and see no reason given to change my mind...

That happens all of the time. Unlike countries that have state supported churches like Russia. We have religious competition in the U.S. Right down the street is a Baptist church with a Pentacostal church next door. A little further down the road is a Presyterian, Episcipol, United Church of Christ and Methodist church on pretty much the same block. We have both ELCA and LCMS lutherian churches in town. We even have two Orthodox churches one Russian or Ukrainian(I can't remember off hand) and the other a Western rite schismatic Orthodox church.

If Evangelicals have to stop going to other countries than I expect all non-protestant churches to be withdrawn voluntarily from the U.S.

 

[Thekla]

I still stand by my oringinal post and see no reason given to change my mind...

So you would have no problem with the USA discarding its present cultural system, and adopting the Russian mindset and goals, or the French mindset and culture

 

[Livindesert]

So you would have no problem with the USA discarding its present cultural system, and adopting the Russian mindset and goals, or the French mindset and culture

Yes, If by that you mean freedom for people to choose what religion to follow and vote in open democratic elections.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[Thekla]

Yes, If by that you mean freedom for people to choose what religion to follow and vote in open democratic elections.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

This is Russian political document ?

If you hold that US culture and political expression is the best, is military force acceptable to make Russia adopt US culture ?

After all, the US has used force through the 20th c. to change the mindset of other people to their own. How is that consistent with the ideal you quote ?

 

[laconicstudent]

What does a phrase from the Declaration of Independence have to do with this discussion?

 

[Livindesert]

This is Russian political document ?

If you hold that US culture and political expression is the best, is military force acceptable to make Russia adopt US culture ?

After all, the US has used force through the 20th c. to change the mindset of other people to their own. How is that consistent with the ideal you quote ?

They can express themslefs anyway they want, I choose "do unto others as you would have them do to you" as my political stance.After all WWJD? Jesus gives us the option to join him or not too. The same choice should be given to all people.

 

[Secundulus]

This is Russian political document ?

If you hold that US culture and political expression is the best, is military force acceptable to make Russia adopt US culture ?

After all, the US has used force through the 20th c. to change the mindset of other people to their own. How is that consistent with the ideal you quote ?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And we will kill anyone who disagrees with our divine pronouncement. Unless they are unborn, then we will kill them whether they agree or not.

 

[Thekla]

They can express themslefs anyway they want, I choose "do unto others as you would have them do to you" as my political stance.After all WWJD? Jesus gives us the option to join him or not too. The same choice should be given to all people.

Then if you hold the right to hold your own US cultural mindset, and the right of the US to self determination, per the Golden Rule, wouldn't you hold that Russia has the right to self determination, and Russians to value and keep their mindset ?

 

[Livindesert]

Then if you hold the right to hold your own US cultural mindset, and the right of the US to self determination, per the Golden Rule, wouldn't you hold that Russia has the right to self determination, and Russians to value and keep their mindset ?

Again Russia is made up of people as long as each individual is allowed to choose whatever religion they want. To choose Christ or reject him. Then I agree with it. If one person picks it and forces the rest of the people to go along with it. I am against it.

WWJD+the Golden rule =

 

[Thekla]

Again Russia is made up of people as long as each individual is allowed to choose whatever religion they want. To choose Christ or reject him. Then I agree with it. If one person picks it and forces the rest of the people to go along with it. I am against it.

WWJD+the Golden rule =

Then to be consistent, you would be pleased to allow your minor children to be actively proselytized by Muslims

 

[laconicstudent]

Just for fun.

Canon II.
The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers.

Just food for thought.

 

[Livindesert]

Then to be consistent, you would be pleased to allow your minor children to be actively proselytized by Muslims

Sure why not?

 

[Thekla]

Sure why not?

Well then, as Russia has decided against a border permeable to western missionaries, that should also be acceptable to you.