I'm an agnostic Humanist...

[smk22]

Am I going to hell according to Christian teaching? It's definitely possible to be a good person without being Christian. I just don't subscribe to the mentality that only Christians are "righteous" or that only Christians are capable of being "saved".

My world view is that if God did in fact create the universe and the human race, he knew beforehand that humans would require empirical evidence in order to believe in something. Even in Christianity, it isn't just taken by word of mouth that God exists. The Bible is considered to be the word of God, so in that respect, it is empirical evidence. Christianity is not a purely faith based religion.

I also feel that if God does exist, he doesn't intervene at all in this world. This is obvious with all of the atrocities that have befallen mankind (the holocaust, genocide etc...). This leads me to believe that God cannot be omnipotent and benevolent at the same time. An all powerful and infinitely loving God would not bring life into existence only to watch it tear itself apart. I am willing to accept a God that is possibly either all powerful and partly loving or partly powerful and all loving. I admit that it does make sense for there to be a creator, given the physics of our universe. Every single action that takes place is preceded by another action, going all the way back to the first instant in time. Something cannot come from nothing, so that can mean two things:

1. Whatever created our universe was not operating with the same laws that bind it now.

or

2. The concept of infinity is real and our universe is simply the result of an infinite number of actions taking place on a level that we can't comprehend.

Of course, it's possible that both are true.

But, I have never experienced anything to make me believe that there is an all powerful, all loving man in the sky who will bring us to eternal life with him. The way God is portrayed in the Bible (yes, I've read it) varies from wrathful avenger to kind and gentle. Some of the passages in the bible are very grotesque; things an all loving God would never do. That is why I am a humanist. I have seen that most of the time, humans are good to each other, at least we try to be. Every once in awhile, a bad guy comes along and incites wars and ruins lots lives, but in general people are good.

The potential of human love is astounding. There are people and beliefs I have that I would die for. That said, no loving person would create a life if it knew that that life form was going to suffer immensely. Given my experience with physical and emotional pain, if I had the ability to snap a civilization into existence on say... Mars, and I knew that that civilization would beat itself in torment for thousands of years, I would not do it. Regardless, if I am already omnipotent, I am perfectly content so there would be no need to do so anyway.

So, given my thoughts on things, would I go to hell, from a Christian standpoint?

 

[fm107]

I can't go into detail right now because I don't have long for my lunch break.

The quick answer to your question is yes you would go to Hell.

John 3:16-21
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

I don't understand how you can say God does not love. He sent his own son into the world to die for it. What is more loving than that? I would like an answer.

If humans loved each other so much then why are there wars, famine, theft, adultery etc? This isn't done by one or two "bad guys" this is done by the majority.

Your view of humans is wrong and your view of God is wrong.

 

[tansy]

Am I going to hell according to Christian teaching? It's definitely possible to be a good person without being Christian. I just don't subscribe to the mentality that only Christians are "righteous" or that only Christians are capable of being "saved".

My world view is that if God did in fact create the universe and the human race, he knew beforehand that humans would require empirical evidence in order to believe in something. Even in Christianity, it isn't just taken by word of mouth that God exists. The Bible is considered to be the word of God, so in that respect, it is empirical evidence. Christianity is not a purely faith based religion.

I also feel that if God does exist, he doesn't intervene at all in this world. This is obvious with all of the atrocities that have befallen mankind (the holocaust, genocide etc...). This leads me to believe that God cannot be omnipotent and benevolent at the same time. An all powerful and infinitely loving God would not bring life into existence only to watch it tear itself apart. I am willing to accept a God that is possibly either all powerful and partly loving or partly powerful and all loving. I admit that it does make sense for there to be a creator, given the physics of our universe. Every single action that takes place is preceded by another action, going all the way back to the first instant in time. Something cannot come from nothing, so that can mean two things:

1. Whatever created our universe was not operating with the same laws that bind it now.

or

2. The concept of infinity is real and our universe is simply the result of an infinite number of actions taking place on a level that we can't comprehend.

Of course, it's possible that both are true.

But, I have never experienced anything to make me believe that there is an all powerful, all loving man in the sky who will bring us to eternal life with him. The way God is portrayed in the Bible (yes, I've read it) varies from wrathful avenger to kind and gentle. Some of the passages in the bible are very grotesque; things an all loving God would never do. That is why I am a humanist. I have seen that most of the time, humans are good to each other, at least we try to be. Every once in awhile, a bad guy comes along and incites wars and ruins lots lives, but in general people are good.

The potential of human love is astounding. There are people and beliefs I have that I would die for. That said, no loving person would create a life if it knew that that life form was going to suffer immensely. Given my experience with physical and emotional pain, if I had the ability to snap a civilization into existence on say... Mars, and I knew that that civilization would beat itself in torment for thousands of years, I would not do it. Regardless, if I am already omnipotent, I am perfectly content so there would be no need to do so anyway.

So, given my thoughts on things, would I go to hell, from a Christian standpoint?

Extremely briefly...even if one could say that on the face of it, people generally are 'good', try to be good and do good...in fact, when t comes right down to it, we aren't. Even if we avoid acting on some of our bad impulses or feelings, many, many of us (if not all) are proud, envious, greedy, selfish etc etc. All these things distort us in some way, so we are not who God created us to be.
Only God can save, redeem, deliver us from these things. That is one of the reasons why we need Jesus. Without Him making us 'a new creation', we will never, ever be able to overcome everything that is evl within us.
There is much more that can be said about this..I've only touched on the surface.

 

[brinny]

Am I going to hell according to Christian teaching? It's definitely possible to be a good person without being Christian. I just don't subscribe to the mentality that only Christians are "righteous" or that only Christians are capable of being "saved".

My world view is that if God did in fact create the universe and the human race, he knew beforehand that humans would require empirical evidence in order to believe in something. Even in Christianity, it isn't just taken by word of mouth that God exists. The Bible is considered to be the word of God, so in that respect, it is empirical evidence. Christianity is not a purely faith based religion.

I also feel that if God does exist, he doesn't intervene at all in this world. This is obvious with all of the atrocities that have befallen mankind (the holocaust, genocide etc...). This leads me to believe that God cannot be omnipotent and benevolent at the same time. An all powerful and infinitely loving God would not bring life into existence only to watch it tear itself apart. I am willing to accept a God that is possibly either all powerful and partly loving or partly powerful and all loving. I admit that it does make sense for there to be a creator, given the physics of our universe. Every single action that takes place is preceded by another action, going all the way back to the first instant in time. Something cannot come from nothing, so that can mean two things:

1. Whatever created our universe was not operating with the same laws that bind it now.

or

2. The concept of infinity is real and our universe is simply the result of an infinite number of actions taking place on a level that we can't comprehend.

Of course, it's possible that both are true.

But, I have never experienced anything to make me believe that there is an all powerful, all loving man in the sky who will bring us to eternal life with him. The way God is portrayed in the Bible (yes, I've read it) varies from wrathful avenger to kind and gentle. Some of the passages in the bible are very grotesque; things an all loving God would never do. That is why I am a humanist. I have seen that most of the time, humans are good to each other, at least we try to be. Every once in awhile, a bad guy comes along and incites wars and ruins lots lives, but in general people are good.

The potential of human love is astounding. There are people and beliefs I have that I would die for. That said, no loving person would create a life if it knew that that life form was going to suffer immensely. Given my experience with physical and emotional pain, if I had the ability to snap a civilization into existence on say... Mars, and I knew that that civilization would beat itself in torment for thousands of years, I would not do it. Regardless, if I am already omnipotent, I am perfectly content so there would be no need to do so anyway.

So, given my thoughts on things, would I go to hell, from a Christian standpoint?

brinny: why do you ask these things? are you doubting what you say you believe in? are you searching for something else?

you did not answer my questions.

 

[Marycita]

So, given my thoughts on things, would I go to hell, from a Christian standpoint?

I was going to type out a long response to many things in your post, but then I read this...

I, too, am wondering why you are asking this. I wonder if you are doubting what you are thinking as well....

Because, from everything before this question of yours, you seem to have made up your mind that you don't want to go to heaven. And God won't make you, He gave you that choice.

If you are trying to find out if there's truth in Christianity, then I will definitely post the other thoughts I was originally going to.

 

[ebia]

Am I going to hell according to Christian teaching? It's definitely possible to be a good person without being Christian. I just don't subscribe to the mentality that only Christians are "righteous" or that only Christians are capable of being "saved".

Depends what you mean by "hell". God is putting right everything that is wrong with the world, and if one wants to be on-board with that plan one needs to get on-board with that plan.

My world view is that if God did in fact create the universe and the human race, he knew beforehand that humans would require empirical evidence in order to believe in something.

Are you saying God should pander to the demands of one particular strand of thinking in one particular modern western culture.

The reality is that all people believe all sorts of things without what modern rationlism calls "objective empirical evidence".

Even in Christianity, it isn't just taken by word of mouth that God exists. The Bible is considered to be the word of God, so in that respect, it is empirical evidence. Christianity is not a purely faith based religion.

We need to be careful with our terms - faith, in Christian 'jargon' does not mean 'belief without reason' but 'belief and trust'.

I also feel that if God does exist, he doesn't intervene at all in this world.
This is obvious with all of the atrocities that have befallen mankind (the holocaust, genocide etc...).

The Christian claim is that it's precisely that God has interviened, but because those problems run so deep within us evil cannot simply be wiped out by force (the story of Noah is a story about why that won't work), so God has to embark on the long-term plan of putting right creation by working alongside, in and through his people. That long term plan began with the call of Abraham, climaxed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth and continues in the church. It will come to completion in his return and the final resurrection.

This leads me to believe that God cannot be omnipotent and benevolent at the same time. An all powerful and infinitely loving God would not bring life into existence only to watch it tear itself apart.

He would if he knows he can work with it to bring it to its full completion.

I am willing to accept a God that is possibly either all powerful and partly loving or partly powerful and all loving.

IMO, omni- terms are (like all naive concepts of the infinite) self-contradictory. We (all) need to stop worrying about what we think God should be, and start looking at the God revealed in Jesus of Nazareth.

The way God is portrayed in the Bible (yes, I've read it) varies from wrathful avenger to kind and gentle.

As it should if the bible is to reflect the full range of fallen human interaction with a God exhasperated but still loving his creation.

Some of the passages in the bible are very grotesque; things an all loving God would never do. That is why I am a humanist. I have seen that most of the time, humans are good to each other, at least we try to be. Every once in awhile, a bad guy comes along and incites wars and ruins lots lives, but in general people are good.

Trouble is, that doesn't really get us anywhere. But one problem with your view is the same as the issue with many fundamentalist religious views - it draws the line between good and evil between some good people and some bad people. As the story of Noah teaches, "the line between good and evil is not between us and them but runs right down the middle of each one of us". The best of us can and do do evil things, and the worst of us can and do do good things.

The potential of human love is astounding. There are people and beliefs I have that I would die for. That said, no loving person would create a life if it knew that that life form was going to suffer immensely.

We recognise all the time that some suffering is unavoidable and is worth the joy that comes at the end of it. Scripture explicitly uses one such instance as a metaphor for what creation is going through - childbirth.

 

[smk22]

Are you saying God should pander to the demands of one particular strand of thinking in one particular modern western culture.

The reality is that all people believe all sorts of things without what modern rationlism calls "objective empirical evidence".

If someone told you that unicorns exist, and they showed you a book with text in it that said "Unicorns exist.", would you believe them?

 

[ebia]

If someone told you that unicorns exist, and they showed you a book with text in it that said "Unicorns exist.", would you believe them?

Probably not, but there's a difference between saying "I might need some convincing before I accept and extra-ordinary claim" and "God must meet the peculiar of my particular culture - and a selective one at that".


The reality is that most of what any of us understand to be true - even the most ardent naive rationalist - is based on a whole heap of stuff beyond so called objective empirical evidence.

To say "I'm going to set a rule for what will convince me and God must meet it" is daft. To say "I need convincing but I'm open to being convinced by whatever will do that" is not.

 

[smk22]

Probably not

So why do you believe in God? It's the same exact thing, only on a much larger scale.

I'm not trying to troll anyone, I'm just honestly curious. Whenever I ask why people believe in God, I just get some biblical hooey about how he loves us and is going to save the believers. How do you know the Bible is the word of God?

 

[ebia]

So why do you believe in God?

Because I find myself unable not to.

It's the same exact thing, only on a much larger scale.

I'm not trying to troll anyone, I'm just honestly curious. Whenever I ask why people believe in God, I just get some biblical hooey about how he loves us and is going to save the believers. How do you know the Bible is the word of God?

Why do you trust somebody? Usually because you've known them a while and found them to be reliable. Not usually because someone has sat down and presented a scientific paper showing them to be trustworthy from empirical 'objective' evidence.

I don't believe in God because I believe the bible; I trust the bible because I've found God to be true and the bible to be a reliable text from which to learn more about him, myself, and the rest of creation.

 

[smk22]

So you agree that the reason you believe in God lies in a piece of physical evidence (aka the Bible)? I'm assuming that by "trust" you are in fact referring to the Bible.

 

[ebia]

So you agree that the reason you believe in God lies in a piece of physical evidence (aka the Bible)?

No, the reason I believe is because I find I cannot not.

I'm assuming that by "trust" you are in fact referring to the Bible.

Yes and no - I referred to trusting God and to trusting the bible - the latter follows from the former as much as vice-versa.

 

[smk22]

No, the reason I believe is because I find I cannot not.

That explains nothing. Let's break it down a little bit more... How did you come to believe in the first place?

 

[traditionalist]

Let's break it down a little bit more... How did you come to believe in the first place?

hey, Smokeybravo - have you heard of a thing called Tacit knowledge? I would google it for you but Im not allowed to post links yet

If you go to a sailor and ask them how they can read the weather, they cannot break it down for you, becasue that knowledge is Tacit. IT is built from a thousand little steps and experiences that is impossible for the sailor to break down for someone who hasnt experienced these things.

You are asking people to write in a hundred words or so what it has taken a lifetime to accumulate.

 

[smk22]

Sure, but the sailor gathered that knowledge from the physical world.

 

[ebia]

That explains nothing.

I know it's not very helpful, but that's the way it is.

Let's break it down a little bit more... How did you come to believe in the first place?

Hard to say, really. I could tell you my life story, but coming to believe was a process, not an event.

 

[ebia]

Sure, but the sailor gathered that knowledge from the physical world.

More helpfully for this conversation, they built that meaning from their experience - from the stories they heard and experienced. Which, ultimately, is how we build all our understanding of reality.

 

[traditionalist]

I used the sailor as an example of tacit knowledge, not as to where that knowledge derived from. by what you posted I dont think you actualy know what tacit knowledge is otherwise you woldnt have said this:

Sure, but the sailor gathered that knowledge from the physical world.

BUT, not neccessarily. It could have been gathered vicariously; observationally. Transposed learning etc.

 

[TravisD]

Tacit is something that cannot be expressed with words. Another example would be a first love or a first kiss. Somebody could explain the concept over and over again, but actually experiencing it is beyond words. Likewise, we can tell you why we believe in God and why we believe the bible is real, but it will not be good enough. It is something you will have to experience. You cannot rely on your own understanding. You have to ask God through Jesus Christ for understanding. If you are really curious and you want to know why we believe what we do. Ask God to reveal to you what he has revealed to us.

 

[smk22]

I used the sailor as an example of tacit knowledge, not as to where that knowledge derived from. by what you posted I dont think you actualy know what tacit knowledge is otherwise you woldnt have said this:



BUT, not neccessarily. It could have been gathered vicariously; observationally. Transposed learning etc.

I know exactly what tacit knowledge is. That knowledge comes from the physical world, however. For example, Eric Clapton is a great guitarist from all of his years practicing and learning new techniques etc... But to say that tacit knowledge is the reason you believe in God is just a cheat. You were probably brought up in a Christian home or at least you were aware of Christianity and of people around you who were Christians. You might have been in a precarious situation and you found a bible or something laying open and the passage happened to vaguely correspond to your problem. I've heard of this type of thing plenty of times. The fact of the matter is, that you believe what you want to believe. If you have an emotional need, your brain is going to tell you to fill it however you can. "God" just happened to be there to fill that need. But even with all of this tacit "knowledge", there is still the problem of physical evidence. A sailor knows how to tie some obscure knot because his dad physically showed him how as a kid. Eric Clapton knows how to get his tone just right from years of listening to himself play. You believe in God due to a combination of physical evidence (the Bible, confirmation from your friends/family, tradition etc...) and emotion. There is actually an "emotion section" in your brain. Scientists can use an MRI scan to show that when someone says "Jesus", part of your brain will light up.

Now, if you were born on an island and the only inhabitants were your mother, father and you and neither knew what Christianity was, do you think you would somehow magically construct a belief system with God as the central focus that was exactly the flavor of Christianity you follow now? No. The chances of that are one in a hundred trillion. If that God were to exist, he would need to send some type of physical evidence to Earth to show that he was up there and that he wanted you to worship him.