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How can you say you believe in god?

brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Excellent questions and post. From the beginning there was a liar...he was called the father of lies...he also said "Did God really say..." "thou wilt not surely die..."

he was God's detract-er from the beginning....and he continues to this day....


Did God lie when He said "on that day thou shalt surely die" and then Adam & Eve did not die that day, but 900 years later?

Either a) God lied, or b) God meant something other than the strictly literal truth with that statement. What do you believe?

Adam and Eve were estranged from God. They sinned. The moment the thought of and the act that followed of disobedience, they were no longer eternal. They were cursed. Eternally. And all of mankind after them.

Surely you are aware of this brother in Christ and son of the most High God. It is written.
 
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philadiddle

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i am willing to say that and in fact am if they argue with anything written within the bible.. or say it is something other than what it implicitely states
Do you think that the earth sits on pillars?
 
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laconicstudent

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I don't follow this question ^


1 Samuel 2:8 said:
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.




The question is: Is this literally true?
 
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laconicstudent

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do you know what the "Pillars of the Earth" are?

Yes, this is a Pillar:

Ivy_Pillar.jpg


The verse, interpreted literally, says the Earth is resting upon these. Is this the case?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
do you know what the "Pillars of the Earth" are?

Yes, this is a Pillar:

Ivy_Pillar.jpg


The verse, interpreted literally, says the Earth is resting upon these. Is this the case?

These are the "Pillars of Creation" or sometimes referred to as "Pillars of the Earth":

pillars5_hst.jpg
 
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laconicstudent

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These are the "Pillars of Creation" or sometimes referred to as "Pillars of the Earth":

pillars5_hst.jpg


........You think the Eagle nebula is the "Pillars" described in 1st Samuel, on the basis that a Hubble Telescope photo was named "Pillars of Creation"?

How exactly is the Earth resting upon these "Pillars"? They are 7,000 light-years away.

Huh. Anyways. I'm glad that we've established that not every part of the Bible is literally true.
 
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brinny

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........You think the Eagle nebula is the "Pillars" described in 1st Samuel, on the basis that a Hubble Telescope photo was named "Pillars of Creation"?

How exactly is the Earth resting upon these "Pillars"? They are 7,000 light-years away.

Huh. Anyways. I'm glad that we've established that not every part of the Bible is literally true.

Do you know ALL things?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Do you know ALL things?

Are you dodging the question? Do you believe the Eagle nebula, an astronomical object 66,225,113,308,065,610 kilometers away, is the Pillars described in 1st Samuel?

I believe that they are not completely understood by man, and were only recently discovered. I believe there is more we do not know, that may not necessarily be seen by the human eye, which is limited and fallible. I believe that God's Word is more advanced than you may think it is. It is extraordinarily canny that these "pillars" were named what they were named. I believe that they are merely a foretaste of what lies where we cannot see it right now. I believe that the earth is held in place by God's design. In His design are wonders we have not seen yet, or may never see.

Is the earth on THESE particular pillars? Maybe not. But hey, since you brought up "pillars" for debate, they immediately came to mind. Thoughyt i'd post them. I find them intriguing, for they remind me how only partially, at best, man sees a tiny glimpse of the glory of God's creation, no matter how hard he tries. There is sooooooo much we do NOT know.

I would not challenge the GOD of this creation and tell Him point blank that He cannot be seeeeerious, for surely He does not mean what He says...that's just ludicrous for Him to say that, according to MY vast knowledge that knoweth ALL things. He's kidding right. Surely He didn't mean it. Even I can see how ridiculous it would be for the God Who created ALL things and Who is omnipotent, the Alpha and the Omega, to say such a thing.

Would you?
 
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laconicstudent

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I believe that they are not completely understood by man

Astronomers would dispute that.


and were only recently discovered.

Brinny. We discovered the Eagle nebula in 1746 :doh:

I believe there is more we do not know, that may not necessarily be seen by the human eye, which is limited and fallible.

Ok. You have absolutely no indication that the Eagle Nebula is anything other then any other mundane nebula. So this is really nothing other then a confirmation bias.

I believe that God's Word is more advanced than you may think it is.

I don't recall ever saying otherwise.

It is extraordinarily canny that these "pillars" were named what they were named.

Before you continue presenting this as some major point, you may want to review this Pillars of Creation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to see just how mundane it really is.

I believe that they are merely a foretaste of what lies where we cannot see it right now.

Ok. Well, until then, lets not make baseless assumptions.

I believe that the earth is held in place by God's design. In His design are wonders we have not seen yet, or may never see.

That's nice.

Is the earth on THESE particular pillars? Maybe not.

Then why did you bring them up? :doh:

But hey, since you brought up "pillars" for debate, they immediately came to mind.

Wonderful. We were discussing the Pillars that literally support the Earth according to 1st Samuel.

Thoughyt i'd post them. I find them intriguing, for they remind me how only partially, at best, man sees a tiny glimpse of the glory of God's creation, no matter how hard he tries. There is sooooooo much we do NOT know.

Good for you.

I would not challenge the GOD of this creation and tell Him point blank that He cannot be seeeeerious, for surely He does not mean what He says...that's just ludicrous for Him to say that, according to MY vast knowledge that knoweth ALL things. He's kidding right. Surely He didn't mean it.

Good thing that no one has suggested that so far.

Even I can see how ridiculous it would be for the God Who created ALL things and Who is omnipotent, the Alpha and the Omega, to say such a thing.



Yes, it would be. Now that we've got that out of the way, where are the pillars that are literally supporting planet Earth according to 1st Samuel?
 
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metherion

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How do I believe in God and understand evolution?

Well, that’s a long, involved, and difficult question. I’ll give you a few of the condensed main reasons.

Reason number one is that I’ve never belong to the camp of “Every word in the Bible is straight from the mouth of God so if it isn’t just as it said it must be a lie.” I do NOT believe every word in the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. Some words are, dreams and revelations, the original 10 commandments, quotes from Jesus, etc. But not everything. Everything in the Bible is INSPIRED and profitable for teaching and doctrine, but not literal dictation from God. As a matter of fact, not everything CAN be from God because there are quotes from humans in there. Humans are not God (we know that all too well :p). And I don’t think Biblical doctrine should include science.

Reason number two is the scientific level at the time. The last book that went into the Bible was one of the epistles or Revelations, I don’t remember which, but was written not after 110 AD. Scientific understanding even that recently was... well, terrible. How much would it have detracted from the POINT of the Bible (man’s relationship with God and God’s relationship with man) to have in depth and way before their time explanations of astronomy, physics, math, biology, etc in a holy book, especially when the ability to verify them wouldn’t come around for another few thousand years? (talking about things from the OT like Genesis).

Reason number three is the culture and surrounding cultures. Let me preface this with who my parents are. They are college professors with Ph.Ds in philosophy (one ancient, one medieval) who teach: Latin, Greek, world religions, mythology, and philosophy (among other things). They’re the type of parents who, when I was 4 or 5 and asked how God could be everywhere, got a 20 minute response that had me asking if we could talk about something else. So, while growing up I would always get to hear and talk about all the fun myths, and how similar various cultures myths were to others, and the various cultures viewpoints and worldviews, and so on. In my many years growing with them, this included over time ancient Hebrew culture, which is really not set on interpreting things the way modern people do, much less all literal all the time. Which brings me to my fourth point.

Number four is as simple as Scripture isn’t as simple as just Scripture itself. If you haven’t guessed, I am NOT a sola scriptura guy. I mean, let’s face it. Remember all the way back to high school, or middle school, or whatever. (this will be mostly directed at fellow Americans since, well, I too used the American school system, and will contain a lot of specific books that I personally read in mine). Remember how when you learned about various authors and works you learned about the time period and culture? When reading Edith Hamilton’s Mythology, we also learned about Greek culture and Norse and Roman cultures and read the old Greek plays. When we read Shakespeare we had a primer on Elizabethan England. When we read Huckleberry Finn we learned a lot about Mark Twain. When we read Canterbury Tales (well, two of them anyways) we learned about 1200-ish England. And so on and so forth. So, if we want to learn about the Bible, then understand ancient Jewish culture is very important. I mean, literature cannot be taken in a vacuum, the context must be understood. I just can’t see how people make a huge point of saying NO IT DOESN”T when it comes to the most important piece of literature in the world as far as our immortal souls are concerned.

Reason number 5 is the rest of the universe. God created EVERYTHING. Period. Entire universe, hands down, nobody did anything else. I think we can all agree on that part with no problem. And God knows everything. We can all agree on that part. Which also means God knows all the consequences for everything He does. Period. So when God created the universe, He knew exactly how whatever He did would turn out. Which means that the universe is more God’s direct handiwork than the Bible. The Bible was inspired by God and written by human hands. The universe is made by God’s own hands in its totality. And even if the Bible WAS dictated word for word by God, it was still written down by man, and the finalized canon was finalized by men with God’s help. Man is inextricably linked with the Bible. Not so with the rest of the universe. So if we understand the way the universe works, if we understand more of how God’s creation works, we can apply what we learn there to the rest of what He has given us, including the Bible, to see what it means by seeing how well it harmonizes with what God has done.

Reasons 6 and 7 are pretty closely linked. Reason 6 is that I don’t see some huge scientific and economic and international conspiracy for people to perpetuate a scientific fraud and pay scientists to use methods that don’t work just to make a scientific reason to deny God that doesn’t even WORK because God is outside the realm of science. Reason 7 is that I really can’t stand the constant and repetitive dishonesty of some of the professional creation societies (and yes, I can and will back that up).

That’s it in a nutshell, but it really barely scratches the surface of my thought processes.

Metherion
 
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crawfish

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Adam and Eve were estranged from God. They sinned. The moment the thought of and the act that followed of disobedience, they were no longer eternal. They were cursed. Eternally. And all of mankind after them.

Surely you are aware of this brother in Christ and son of the most High God. It is written.

Are you suggesting that there is subtext in the story, and the words aren't strictly literal?
 
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brinny

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Astronomers would dispute that.




Brinny. We discovered the Eagle nebula in 1746 :doh:



Ok. You have absolutely no indication that the Eagle Nebula is anything other then any other mundane nebula. So this is really nothing other then a confirmation bias.



I don't recall ever saying otherwise.



Before you continue presenting this as some major point, you may want to review this Pillars of Creation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to see just how mundane it really is.



Ok. Well, until then, lets not make baseless assumptions.



That's nice.



Then why did you bring them up? :doh:



Wonderful. We were discussing the Pillars that literally support the Earth according to 1st Samuel.



Good for you.



Good thing that no one has suggested that so far.





Yes, it would be. Now that we've got that out of the way, where are the pillars that are literally supporting planet Earth according to 1st Samuel?

Did God lie? Is the Bible not His Word? Do you believe He is mistaken? Do you know more than He? Do I?

You spoke of pillars and then posted a picture of a man-made piece. Surely you must've known THEY were not what God's Word was speaking of?

By the way, how would someone back when the Word of God was written, know about "pillars" of ANY kind in space?
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Adam and Eve were estranged from God. They sinned. The moment the thought of and the act that followed of disobedience, they were no longer eternal. They were cursed. Eternally. And all of mankind after them.

Surely you are aware of this brother in Christ and son of the most High God. It is written.

Are you suggesting that there is subtext in the story, and the words aren't strictly literal?

Do you understand about the curse and why man was cursed and how death entered the picture and why Adam and Eve were ousted out of the Garden of Eden? :o
 
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laconicstudent

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Did God lie? Is the Bible not His Word? Do you believe He is mistaken? Do you know more than He? Do I?

Why do you keep harping on this after I already said "No".

where are the pillars brinny?

You spoke of pillars and then posted a picture of a man-made piece. Surely you must've known THEY were not what God's Word was speaking of?

Do we? Where are the pillars Brinny?

By the way, how would someone back when the Word of God was written, know about "pillars" of ANY kind in space?

That's a good question. Where are the pillars Brinny? Are you still arguing that giant streamers of interstellar gas and forming stars constitute "Pillars"? How do they support the Earth? How does the Earth rest upon something that is 66,225,113,308,065,610 kilometers away?
 
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brinny

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Why do you keep harping on this after I already said "No".

where are the pillars brinny?



Do we? Where are the pillars Brinny?



That's a good question. Where are the pillars Brinny? Are you still arguing that giant streamers of interstellar gas and forming stars constitute "Pillars"? How do they support the Earth? How does the Earth rest upon something that is 66,225,113,308,065,610 kilometers away?

If you agree that God does not lie, and consequently His Word does not lie, what "pillars" was His Word speaking of?
 
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