How would you prove the Universe is old?

[thaumaturgy]

No comment.

Why not? Are they wrong and you don't have the guts to say it to their faces?

You don't mind telling atheists what they believe, why so timid when it comes to your brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

[AV1611VET]

And then, we look at reality and it is blindingly obvious that this literal account is incorrect.

No, it's not --- you can't even begin to look at all of reality.

Science is too myopic.

That's why I have this thread archived: 1.

 

[laconicstudent]

No, it's not --- you can't even begin to look at all of reality.

Science is too myopic.

That's why I have this thread archived: 1.

AV, I have a hard time taking that from someone who has bragged about how he'll die ignorant. Its absurd, you yourself have admitted to having no clue what you are talking about. You'll forgive me if I don't even bother with your silly links to unrelated posts. You've done it too much to have any credibility with that red herring tactic.

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't mind telling atheists what they believe, why so timid when it comes to your brothers and sisters in Christ?

My particular mission field is atheists, with emphasis on Creationism.

 

[AV1611VET]

Science is too myopic.

AV, I have a hard time taking that from someone who has bragged about how he'll die ignorant.

Maybe you'd better read that link.

Here are the Cliffs Notes: You're going to die ignorant too.

 

[thaumaturgy]

No, it's not --- you can't even begin to look at all of reality.

Science is too myopic.

And you know this...how?

That's why I have this thread archived: 1.

Are you telling me there are things science hasn't figured out yet???

Oh my!

You see, AV, when science finally gets the answer it will be understandable to all who investigate it. It will wind up being the same answer for all who come to this question.

How do I know this? Because otherwise it isn't science.

That's how science works.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Here are the Cliffs Notes: You're going to die ignorant too.

Very nice. And there's no gradation in levels of ignorance?

Ya know, if there is a god I hope he finds people who worship their ignorance as being an affront to him. I mean, if there's a God he gave everyone a brain and unless there was some physical or mental limitation on using it, if one chose not to use it and reveled in their failure to use it then I would really like the God who got a bit ticked off about it.

But that's just me. Some folks better hope God doesn't like scientists.

 

[laconicstudent]

Maybe you'd better read that link.

Maybe you should try summarizing. I'm disinclined to waste my bandwidth with your irrelevant spam.

Here are the Cliffs Notes: You're going to die ignorant too.

Actually your wrong about that, because I'm actually getting an education, and learning the things you've bragged about being ignorant about. Try again.

 

[thaumaturgy]

My particular mission field is atheists, with emphasis on Creationism.

So when someone asks an uncomfortable question about your foundational experience you give "no comment"?



I find that sort of politician type response to be somewhat strange to your stance. If your stance is different for Christians than it is for atheists (when you're out in the "field") then what is it you actually believe?

Right is right and wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter to whom you are speaking at that particular minute, does it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Very nice. And there's no gradation in levels of ignorance?

Let's put it this way, whether you broad jump off the Grand Canyon, or whether you try to pole vault across --- just because one is going to get closer to the other side than the other is not going to change a thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

So when someone asks an uncomfortable question about your foundational experience you give "no comment"?

You want them on the hot seat --- you go after them.

Variance is a sin.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Maybe you should try summarizing. I'm disinclined to waste my bandwidth with your irrelevant spam.

Actually your wrong about that, because I'm actually getting an education, and learning the things you've bragged about being ignorant about. Try again.

Laconic, he's pointing out that science doesn't know everything yet. He is quite right, we will all grow old and die and not know everything, hence we will all be ignorant.

What I think he is failing to account for is that ignorance can be to different levels.

One step, even just the desire to NOT be ignorant is, in my estimation, the greatest thing in the world. The greatest goal imaginable.

Bravo for getting an education! It is a great thing and no doubt you'll enjoy not only the path but the total "lack of a destination". Education and the fight against one's own personal ignorance should never end.

I hope I never get to the point where I embrace my own ignorance and cease fighting it.

 

[thaumaturgy]

You want them on the hot seat --- you go after them.

Variance is a sin.

So what do you believe? If there are Christians who are at variance with you then what do you believe? Clearly God has given you truth to deal with this variance as well as our "atheism", correct?

I find this to be a most interesting point.

Truth is TRUTH, no matter to whom it is addressed. I don't say 2+2=3 to my science friends and 2+2=4 to my non-science friends.

Truth is truth, is it not?

 

[AV1611VET]

So what do you believe? If there are Christians who are at variance with you then what do you believe? Clearly God has given you truth to deal with this variance as well as our "atheism", correct?

I find this to be a most interesting point.

Truth is TRUTH, no matter to whom it is addressed. I don't say 2+2=3 to my science friends and 2+2=4 to my non-science friends.

Truth is truth, is it not?

I'm kinda with you on this.

What I need to do, in my opinion, is just stop replying to people who have Christian icons, and focus on who I'm supposed to focus on: the atheists in particular, and non-Christians in general.

But what happens though, is that I'll ask what I think is a dynamite question, only to have a Christian give an answer, then the person I'm targeting doesn't feel obligated to answer.

At times, I even think they'll refuse to answer, hoping someone else with do it.

For the record, I think it's wrong for me to go after my own brothers and sisters, and I plan to stop doing it.

It's wrong --- period.

 

[Ursie]

ETA: Apart from anything else, the JEWS don't take it literally. When you're trying to tell the actual writer of something that you're doing it wrong, maybe it's time to stop and take a look at your own opinions.

Which Jews? Today's Jews who are influenced by modern science. Or those from 150 years ago and before?

 

[Ursie]

Anyone ever consider the possibility that God is powerful beyond what your minds can comprehend? That He could actually have created an entire universe in a matter of 24 hour days? That he could have included something which looked like a historical record in an instant (whether in a massive flood or within the original 6 days of creation)? That He is actually infinitely more intelligent than all the masses of scientists who have ever and will ever live? Consider it. I guess if you took it seriously ,you'd have to find another job, but maybe it would be more pleasant than arguing with all the loopy creationists out there. Perhaps you could learn to simply revel in the creation and know that you had no need to explain every last bit of it scientifically. You could trust that an omnipotent God had it all in hand, from beginnning to end and created it for your and His good pleasure. Just an idea.

 

[AV1611VET]

Just an idea.

And a good one at that ---

 

[Ursie]

And a good one at that ---

Thanks man, I knew I could count on you. Where two or more are gathered!

 

[Tinker Grey]

Anyone ever consider the possibility that God is powerful beyond what your minds can comprehend? That He could actually have created an entire universe in a matter of 24 hour days? That he could have included something which looked like a historical record in an instant (whether in a massive flood or within the original 6 days of creation)? That He is actually infinitely more intelligent than all the masses of scientists who have ever and will ever live? Consider it. I guess if you took it seriously ,you'd have to find another job, but maybe it would be more pleasant than arguing with all the loopy creationists out there. Perhaps you could learn to simply revel in the creation and know that you had no need to explain every last bit of it scientifically. You could trust that an omnipotent God had it all in hand, from beginnning to end and created it for your and His good pleasure. Just an idea.

Have you ever considered that if God created the universe via the big bang, that that act of creation took an instant? In that instant all the laws of the universe were in place so that everything that he intended would be exactly as he intended; that humans would be as he wanted them, when he wanted them -- along with everything else from bacteria to dinosaurs to super novas.

An instant is much shorter than 6 24-hour days.

Now before you say that he would have had to wait 13.7 billion years, ask yourself is God inside or outside time. Time, as we understand it, is an embedded principle of the universe. If God is inside time, he is dependent on the universe. Hence, as far back as Augustine, Christian theologians have posited that God is outside time.

How does a being outside time, experience time? The only thing we can imagine is that he doesn't. If God sees yesterday, today and tomorrow as a simultaneous present, then 13.7 billions years did not elapse for him at all. From the beginning of the universe until its end (perhaps a trillion years from now), is all one instantaneous now for him.

The God of the TE is infinitely more glorious and more powerful and more wonderful and more awesome than is the God of the YEC.

YMMV, of course.

Just an idea.

 

[laconicstudent]

Anyone ever consider the possibility that God is powerful beyond what your minds can comprehend? That He could actually have created an entire universe in a matter of 24 hour days?

Yes, I have. Have you ever bothered considering that God may be a little more subtle then that?

That he could have included something which looked like a historical record in an instant (whether in a massive flood or within the original 6 days of creation)?

So God is lying now? Interesting theology. It isn't at all orthodox.

That He is actually infinitely more intelligent than all the masses of scientists who have ever and will ever live?

Yeah. But it would seem that you haven't bothered considering that, since your advocating a position in the one in which God is bypassing being intelligent and just magicking everything into place by brute, omnipotent force.

Consider it. I guess if you took it seriously ,you'd have to find another job, but maybe it would be more pleasant than arguing with all the loopy creationists out there. Perhaps you could learn to simply revel in the creation and know that you had no need to explain every last bit of it scientifically. You could trust that an omnipotent God had it all in hand, from beginnning to end and created it for your and His good pleasure. Just an idea.

Thats nice. Too bad that for some of us this sort of explanation is our passion and our jobs. Not everyone is an armchair science critic like you, Ursie. Some of us actually do have a need to explain these things.