Bible says Mary had relations

[JacksLadder]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]English Standard Version [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 1 Read This Chapter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.[/FONT]

I just read this the other night. There would be no until unless Mary consumated the Marriage at some point.

 

[shinbits]

This has been brought up before. The most common responses to this are along the lines of "Well English translations are unreliable. What the original text REALLY means to say is....."

You'd think the fact that the Bible mentions at least twice, that Jesus had brothers and sisters, would be enough to indicate Mary had sex. But the fact that gay Christians exist, shows people will believe what they want, despite how obvious the Bible makes it's posisition.

 

[Thekla]

Although covered in another concurrent thread, I'll repeat it here ...

When a parent says to their child, "Behave until I get back", does this require the child to misbehave after the parent returns ?

In English, the use of the word "until" does not demand a reversal of condition/action following the span of time referred to by "until".

In Greek, the word "ews" (translated in this verse as "until") is typically ongoing ...

So, when Christ says "I will be with you until the end of the age ...", does this mean He will no longer be present after the end of the age ?

 

[JacksLadder]

Although covered in another concurrent thread, I'll repeat it here ...

When a parent says to their child, "Behave until I get back", does this require the child to misbehave after the parent returns ?

In English, the use of the word "until" does not demand a reversal of condition/action following the span of time referred to by "until".

In Greek, the word "ews" (translated in this verse as "until") is typically ongoing ...

So, when Christ says "I will be with you until the end of the age ...", does this mean He will no longer be present after the end of the age ?

To me it says something is going to happen at the end of the age. Which in relation to the relations area says to me they had relations.

 

[JacksLadder]

I did not take my medicine untill I had a glass of water. Would you read this as me never taking medicine?

 

[Thekla]

I did not take my medicine untill I had a glass of water. Would you read this as me never taking medicine?

It says you did not take your medicine until you had water; it tells me nothing about anything else re: medicine.

If you had water, then you took your medicine.

Did you continue to take medicine for the rest of your life, or never take medicine again ? Neither is covered by the statement.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This has been brought up before. The most common responses to this are along the lines of "Well English translations are unreliable. What the original text REALLY means to say is....."

You'd think the fact that the Bible mentions at least twice, that Jesus had brothers and sisters, would be enough to indicate Mary had sex. But the fact that gay Christians exist, shows people will believe what they want, despite how obvious the Bible makes it's posisition.

TWho reads from the Texts anymore today?

Take 1 verse from the Bible and show it to 10 different Christians of various denominations and you will likely get 10 different interpretations for using 3 or more different Bible versions.

Look what it did to the SDA's for example

 

[Hentenza]

In Greek, the word "ews" (translated in this verse as "until") is typically ongoing ...

Mmmm....I don't think you can sustain that one since just about all the instances where "ews" is rendered "until" are conditional not ongoing.

 

[Thekla]

Mmmm....I don't think you can sustain that one since just about all the instances where "ews" is rendered "until" are conditional not ongoing.

In its Greek usage, it is typically ongoing. The translation is (afaik) usually "until", but the word until is not an exact fit. Until (English) is entirely conditional, referring to a limited span; a further statement (ex., a 'then' statement) is required for conclusive reversal. Although many assume a "then" statement for "until" in all instances, this is not grammatically accurate.

Also note that in the two examples given for "ews", both conditions were ongoing after the stated reference; Christ is with us after the end of the age, and the woman did not have children after her death.
In this sense, "ews" denotes a continuous condition of which the statement highlights a subset of the continuous condition.

 

[JacksLadder]

I just found out that Tertullian (155-220 A.D.), while holding that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, denied that her virginity was preserved in his birth, thus emphasizing the reality of her son's body.

Early Church Father Helvidius was the author of a work written before 383 against the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the "sisters" and "brethren" of our Lord was proof that the Blessed Virgin had subsequent issue, and he supported his opinion by the writings of Tertullian and Victorinus. The outcome of his views was that virginity was ranked below matrimony.
Where as Jerome viewed virginity as being a higher calling than marriage so thus had to view Mary as a virgin to show marriage was not a high calling.

So far I agree with Tertullian and Helvidius.

 

[shinbits]

It says you did not take your medicine until you had water; it tells me nothing about anything else re: medicine.

If you had water, then you took your medicine.

Did you continue to take medicine for the rest of your life, or never take medicine again ? Neither is covered by the statement.

He says he "had water". So if as you say, "If you had water, then you took your medicine", then he took his medicine. Until wasn't some sort permanent condition, but actually reversed the condition of not having water.

Seriously, why fight simple logic?

 

[shinbits]

I just found out that Tertullian (155-220 A.D.), while holding that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, denied that her virginity was preserved in his birth, thus emphasizing the reality of her son's body.

Early Church Father Helvidius was the author of a work written before 383 against the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the "sisters" and "brethren" of our Lord was proof that the Blessed Virgin had subsequent issue, and he supported his opinion by the writings of Tertullian and Victorinus. The outcome of his views was that virginity was ranked below matrimony.
Where as Jerome viewed virginity as being a higher calling than marriage so thus had to view Mary as a virgin to show marriage was not a high calling.

So far I agree with Tertullian and Helvidius.

thanx for posting this

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

thanx for posting this

So how much of an impact did Tertullian have on Christianity back then? Just curious as I know little about him and don't really care to read his writings for now. Thanks

 

[Hentenza]

In its Greek usage, it is typically ongoing. The translation is (afaik) usually "until", but the word until is not an exact fit. Until (English) is entirely conditional, referring to a limited span; a further statement (ex., a 'then' statement) is required for conclusive reversal. Although many assume a "then" statement for "until" in all instances, this is not grammatically accurate.

Also note that in the two examples given for "ews", both conditions were ongoing after the stated reference; Christ is with us after the end of the age, and the woman did not have children after her death.
In this sense, "ews" denotes a continuous condition of which the statement highlights a subset of the continuous condition.

Grammatically "ews" is most often used as a subordinating conjunction. The proper rendering is contextual and typically a dependent clause is present. For example,


Matthew 2:13
13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

Matthew 2:15
15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

Matthew 5:18
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Matthew 5:26
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

These are just a few examples. If you notice each one of the usages of "ews" above denotes a condition and is temporal until the condition is met. It is the same with Matthew 1:25. The subordinate clause is good until the condition is met which in this case is the birth of Jesus.

 

[Thekla]

He says he "had water". So if as you say, "If you had water, then you took your medicine", then he took his medicine. Until wasn't some sort permanent condition, but actually reversed the condition of not having water.

Seriously, why fight simple logic?

It still does not tell me that he took medicine again some time in the future or never took medicine again. It only tells me about this one instance.

 

[Secundulus]

So how much of an impact did Tertullian have on Christianity back then? Just curious as I know little about him and don't really care to read his writings for now. Thanks

Tertullian was influential in that he was the first to use the term "trinity".

However, he was later excommunicated as a heretic for adhering to montanism.

 

[shinbits]

It still does not tell me that he took medicine again some time in the future or never took medicine again. It only tells me about this one instance.

You said:

If you had water, then you took your medicine.

He said:

I had a glass of water.

Therefore, by your own premise, he took his meds.

Seriously, why fight simple logic?

 

[GailMc]

Hello JacksLadder. If you want to take the word of a man who lost it somewhere along the way, go right ahead but know first you won't get where God needs you to go in so doing. There are many, many, many examples in the past of the arguements against Mary's perpetual virginity for you to draw your "fire" from, but it may actually lead you to an eternal fire you weren't counting on as payment for wsting your words dysing her! Keep in mind ultimately you don't answer for their words, but yours and what you do with them.

You state this:

I just found out that Tertullian (155-220 A.D.), while holding that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, denied that her virginity was preserved in his birth, thus emphasizing the reality of her son's body.

Early Church Father Helvidius was the author of a work written before 383 against the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Helvidius maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the "sisters" and "brethren" of our Lord was proof that the Blessed Virgin had subsequent issue, and he supported his opinion by the writings of Tertullian and Victorinus. The outcome of his views was that virginity was ranked below matrimony.
Where as Jerome viewed virginity as being a higher calling than marriage so thus had to view Mary as a virgin to show marriage was not a high calling.

So far I agree with Tertullian and Helvidius.

I hold that the detractions that were hurled at Jesus and His disciples in the discourses about the supposed brothers and sisters of the Lord and Mary, were exactly that --- detractions from a crowd who were increasingly inflamed against Jesus and the disciples and they were already accusing Him and them of the sins they would later use to condemn Him shortly before having Him Crucified.

I think these examples of how folks still even to this day crucify Him and her with their words today are doing exactly the same thing that crowd did in those days - detracting and causing others to shy away form Jesus and Mary and the Church with loud arguements in a crowd. I think the importance of them being preserved for us in Scripture is so those of us who read them today can make a choice for or against Jesus, Mary and the Church, so we can either embrace all that He has done through the ages or turn away as they did in that crowd in those days. Since you have said you still cling to the works of others who have continued the detractions going through the ages I can only surmise that you will continue to do so. But I would ask you to at least stop and think about it. Jesus came to us through a woman and her name was Mary and she is His Mother. All she wants from you is to love her and her Son as she did, does and will. You could let her help you or you could continue to detract from her as the crowd does. Try and open your heart a little wider. Love her..........God does!

Peace and all good,

Gail