Euchrist and Messianic Judaism

[visionary]

The official Roman Catholic explanation of the change taking place in the sacrament, called transubstantiation, is that the substances of bread and wine are turned miraculously into the substance of Christ himself, the elements changed retaining only the appearance, taste, etc. (the accidents) of bread and wine. Catholic doctrine holds that the Godhead is indivisible so every particle or drop thus changed is wholly identical in substance with the divinity, body, and blood of the Crucified Savior.

It has been presented that it is all the same, different names but same service. I content that it has so many differences that it is not even close.

When it is offered.
Why it is offered.
How it is offered.
What it is called.
What is used [leaven vs unleaven]
what does it symbolise vs what it really does

In comparing these and many more questions... the differences are too vast to be even thrown into the same basket and called the same thing. The meaning is different. The tranference of focus from then to now changes the meaning. I do not find any Messianic Judaism groups talking about the euchrist like it is the same thing as the Passover Seder.

 

[Heber]

So, how many MJIsm groups have you surveyed on this, in order to arrive at your dogmatic statement(s)?

What questions(s) needed to be answered for you to get your data?

When and where was the survey carried out?

What was your sample number per head of population?

Who verified the data?


or this just your whim, a rumour or guestimate of the situation?

 

[visionary]

So, how many MJIsm groups have you surveyed on this, in order to arrive at your dogmatic statement(s)?

What questions(s) needed to be answered for you to get your data?

When and where was the survey carried out?

What was your sample number per head of population?

Who verified the data?


or this just your whim, a rumour or guestimate of the situation?

Let's do a survey here on this forum.... How many MJ icon carrying members here participate in the eurcharist services in their synagogue?

 

[Heber]

That is not what you claimed. Asking on CF is not a proper survey and the question you have asked is grossly mis-leading and bears no relevance to your original assertion.

You made a dogmatic assertion that you cannot substantiate - asking mis-leading questions only compounds the original error!

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

That is not what you claimed. Asking on CF is not a proper survey and the question you have asked is grossly mis-leading and bears no relevance to your original assertion.

You made a dogmatic assertion that you cannot substantiate - asking mis-leading questions only compounds the original error!

I have to say I think I know her reason for starting this thread. Some non-messianics coming into the Messianic area of CF laying claim that the eurcharist is the same as what is done in a sedar.
So what about those who aren't Messianic coming into our forum and making claims and also putting links that go to their area? I noticed that in the Messianic Hebrew Christian Forum subforum of Messianic Judaism which I don't see how a Catholic and an Angelican can just pop in our forum and start up their own version of what a Messianic Hebrew Christian believes while posting links to the main belief forum they believe in and also sites off of CF that also pertain to their beliefs of Catholism and the other one Angelican. And I don't think I am the only one that notices this. I couldn't go into their part of CF and start making claims and putting links to the MJ forum could I?

BTW, I agree with Visionary

 

[Ivy]

Simmer down, Shamash.

The Anglican you spoke of was raised an Orthodox Jew, and if I have interpreted many of his statements correctly, opted to become Anglican because it felt more like Judaism than other sectors of people who believe in Yeshua. He also received permission from the CF powers that be to post here, YEARS ago. That is not "coming in here."

Maybe it's someone else who is "coming in here" making a big reactionary fuss without trying to find out the facts first.

As for the Catholic you referred to--which I assume means me--I was a member of a Messianic congregation for 13 years, and joined this forum during that time period a number of years ago. I also received permission to post here based on a longstanding and proved love for the Jewish people.

Messianic Hebrew Christian area was also established with the approval of the powers that be on CF as an area for Jews and Christians that are more church-friendly than some sectors of MJ-ism generally feel comfortable being.

Tishri1 is familiar with all these particulars. Why don't you PM her and get this all ironed out? You'll feel better.

Have a nice day,
Ivy

 

[Ivy]

BTW, you actually can post links in MHC. It's just not intended to be a church-bashing zone.

People have the main MJ forum to critique churches if they want.

 

[Ivy]

But to contribute to the subject at hand--I was going to refrain from contributing to this thread, but since I've been alluded to, I am now obligated to pipe up.

I've attended many, many seders. (Please note spelling.) Let me count...every year from 1988 up through 2007, some years second seders. (And a weight loss program afterwards, haha)

I don't think anyone would dispute that the seder ritual is completely another thing from the ritual of the Eucharist (Please note spelling again. ). No one's in any danger of confusing the two; they're quite different in form.

Probably what people would dispute is whether the Eucharist is what the Catholic church and similar churches say it is..........but that's probably a subject for another forum, isn't it? You probably don't want to get into a discussion of Catholicism on this forum.

However, the congregation I was formerly a part of tackled this in the following way:

a) They had "communion" after each Shabbat service, using challah and reciting kiddush, with an added moment of reflection on Yeshua's sacrifice. Their understanding of this was that it was an act of remembrance only. They did not refer to it as "communion" usually but as the Lord's Table.

b) They had the afikommen close to the end of the seders, and this also was understood to commemorate Yeshua (not be him).

I don't know how other Messianic congregations do it, but the one I attended & the other ones in the same network understood it this way.

Hope that is of interest.

 

[Heber]

I am NOT arguing the sameness, or otherwise, of the Eucharist and Passover Seder - I am defending the rights of people to believe they are the same, if they so want to, and not to be told that it is incompatible with the Messianic Movement when the MM doesn't have a widely accepted Creed or Statement of Faith nor any doctrinal statements by which membership or adherence to the Movement can be measured.

On that basis, and that basis alone, I repeat my objection: Given that there are Messianic Gentiles and Jews who currently belong to or have previously had connections with the Church who find no dichotomy between Communion / the Lord's table / Eucharist and the Passover Seder, it is wrong and mis-leading for Vis to claim that these beliefs do exist anywhere in the Messianic movement. To then narrow it to mean ONLY groups of people is to change the claim entirely - in any case the MJAA by which she apparently neasures these things is only a small part of the Messianic family. To then change it again to refer ONLY to Messianic synagogues is disinegenous at the very least. I'll not go into the lack of data etc as to how she, or someone else, surveyed all the Messianic Movement to enable such claims to be made in the first place.

We need to face up to the fact that if the Messianic Movement is really to bridge the gap between Judaism and Christianity there is always going to be some doctrinal adjustment needing to be made, as well as theological adjustment to be made. It is wishful thinking, and completely nonsensical, to claim otherwise.

Now, if Vis is saying that the Eucharist is not the same, let her argue the point and it can be debated if people so wish, but to trash the views of others on the sole basis that 'nobody in the Messianic movement believes it', and because she doesn't believe the same, is in error and can be seen as excluding people from these fora (note the spelling for the plural of forum).

Not everyone believes as we do - heaven forbid that there should, in the Kingdom, be only clones of any one of us!!!

 

[Heber]

Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). They would find it an intolerable suggestion; it is a particular 'high church' view of the feast. This is why it is easier for those with a free church background to see more of a link to the Passover Seder, than those from a more Established Church (high church).

For this reason it is quite dangerous to lump all churches together with sweeping statements. A difference needs to be seen between the perception of the word 'Eucharist' and the other names for the feast: Communion, the Lord's table, Breaking of Bread etc etc. All carry slightly different nuances that people NOT used to them need to learn about so they do not cause unwitting offence.

 

[Ivy]

Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). They would find it an intolerable suggestion; it is a particular 'high church' view of the feast. This is why it is easier for those with a free church background to see more of a link to the Passover Seder, than those from a more Established Church (high church).

Yes, that is what I found where I attended.

I could see where the idea of being forced or brainwashed or whatever to the transubstantiation view would be intolerable--no one likes to be forced to anything by another person, least of all views on spiritual things--but hopefully the fact that other people might hold to it isn't too intolerable.

It really doesn't bother me that other people don't hold the view I do on it, either. That, to me, would be engaging in codependent theatrics.

 

[ContraMundum]

I've celebrated The Lord's Table/Eucharist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it more than once in a Messianic congregation. They welcome me, and I welcome them when they visit us.

What's wrong with that?

 

[ContraMundum]

I do not find any Messianic Judaism groups talking about the euchrist like it is the same thing as the Passover Seder.

Most Messianics I know don't think the eucharist and the Passover are the same- you are right. On this point they agree 100% with the Church. The Church doesn't think a Passover Seder is the same as The Lord's Supper either. So, you Vis are in agreement with the rest of the Church, and that is a good thing, no?

I'm finding your argument difficult to follow- you'd have to clarify it further if I am getting it wrong (if you think it is profitable to do so). Of course a Passover Seder is for a different purpose! The Passover Seder is for Jews to remember our heritage and how we were saved out of Egypt. We are commanded to keep it a perpetual memory. The Lord's Supper recalls the cross, our redemption from sin, and looks forward to the Second Advent. They recall different events. A Jew who believes in the Messiah can (and should IMHO) keep both. Both events are in salvation history, both are commandments.

As for your other points- I don't see your problem. The confusion seems to me to boil down to be about whether or not you think a Gentile needs to celebrate the Seder once a year like the Jews, to remember the Jewish people's history or something. I see the Seder and the Lord's Supper as two different things: one built upon the other but they remember different events- and one event is far more important in the context of all mankind than the other. Both are to be remembered. One is commanded for the Jews, the other to all followers of Yeshua HaMoshiach, Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[ContraMundum]

However, the congregation I was formerly a part of tackled this in the following way:

a) They had "communion" after each Shabbat service, using challah and reciting kiddush, with an added moment of reflection on Yeshua's sacrifice. Their understanding of this was that it was an act of remembrance only. They did not refer to it as "communion" usually but as the Lord's Table.

Interesting note: some in the EO churches think the "Last Supper" was in fact not a Seder but a kiddush ritual. The reason being that to this interpretation the Last Supper occured on the night before Pesach (according to their take on John and Matthew) thus making Yeshua the Passover sacrificial lamb the next day. Of course, if this interpretation is taken, then this whole thread clears up rather quickly. Pesach remains Pesach, and the eucharist is the Christian kiddush.

 

[visionary]

Most Messianics I know don't think the eucharist and the Passover are the same- you are right. On this point they agree 100% with the Church. The Church doesn't think a Passover Seder is the same as The Lord's Supper either. So, you Vis are in agreement with the rest of the Church, and that is a good thing, no?

I'm finding your argument difficult to follow- you'd have to clarify it further if I am getting it wrong (if you think it is profitable to do so). Of course a Passover Seder is for a different purpose! The Passover Seder is for Jews to remember our heritage and how we were saved out of Egypt. We are commanded to keep it a perpetual memory. The Lord's Supper recalls the cross, our redemption from sin, and looks forward to the Second Advent. They recall different events. A Jew who believes in the Messiah can (and should IMHO) keep both. Both events are in salvation history, both are commandments.

As for your other points- I don't see your problem. The confusion seems to me to boil down to be about whether or not you think a Gentile needs to celebrate the Seder once a year like the Jews, to remember the Jewish people's history or something. I see the Seder and the Lord's Supper as two different things: one built upon the other but they remember different events- and one event is far more important in the context of all mankind than the other. Both are to be remembered. One is commanded for the Jews, the other to all followers of Yeshua HaMoshiach, Jew and Gentile alike.

Just as the Lord redeemed a people out of Egypt with the Passover Lamb, so did the Lord redem us out of spiritual Egypt with Him being the Passover Lamb, one looks forward to Him and we look back. But the feast remains unchanged by believers in time, date, commenorative, redemptive purposes, and in unleaven bread to represent His sinless body, and wine to represent His sinless blood atonement for our sins.

You start messing with it's apponted time, service, and add anything more than what our Lord ordained, then it starts resembling something that the Lord never instituted.

 

[ContraMundum]

Just as the Lord redeemed a people out of Egypt with the Passover Lamb, so did the Lord redem us out of spiritual Egypt with Him being the Passover Lamb, one looks forward to Him and we look back. But the feast remains unchanged by believers in time, date, commenorative, redemptive purposes, and in unleaven bread to represent His sinless body, and wine to represent His sinless blood atonement for our sins.

I understand and agree with the type here. I'm not sure we have any grounds to debate each other on this point.

You start messing with it's apponted time, service, and add anything more than what our Lord ordained, then it starts resembling something that the Lord never instituted.

I'm sure Heber is better suited to comment on this, but I see this as the perpetual question among the MJ people- the matter of "which law?" and "which halacha?" After all, God's appointed times and rites were usually intended only for certain appointed people. Some for priests, some for women, some for boys, some for Jews etc. Sorting this out is something the MJ groups are trying to do. I consider it a solved problem, so I find the debate rather curious, but I am happy to watch the debate between various minds in the MJ camp and I wish them all the best. I honestly do believe they will end up where I am in the next few generations (and the church is already moving its structure back to properly accomodate this)

 

[Heber]

Heber is not sure what point Vis is labouring to make! Perhaps if she could tell us what she believes 1 Cor. 11:17-4 is all about we might get somewhere. All we've had so far is one particular view and the fact that that view doesn't relate to the Passover Seder. A fact some of us would agree with - but there are other views of this feast as yet un-touched and, therefore, not ruled out as something with possible links to the Passover.

It is not as cut and dried as Vis seems to think which is why it needs a sensible debate not just a polarisation of views.

 

[visionary]

Interesting note: some in the EO churches think the "Last Supper" was in fact not a Seder but a kiddush ritual. The reason being that to this interpretation the Last Supper occured on the night before Pesach (according to their take on John and Matthew) thus making Yeshua the Passover sacrificial lamb the next day. Of course, if this interpretation is taken, then this whole thread clears up rather quickly. Pesach remains Pesach, and the eucharist is the Christian kiddush.

I can see your point on the Seder timing and issues and the debate on its legits for the last supper. If we go with it being a kiddush ritual....

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:16)

Paul calls this cup, the "cup of blessing" which would be in Hebrew kos shel berachah... would it not? If so then we are talking about the blessing after the meal? For disciples of the Yeshua, there appears to be a connection between the cup of wine at Prayer After the Meal tradition and the Last Seder. In the Gospel of Mark we read:

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. (Mark 14:23-24, also Matthew 26:27-28)

I still lean on it being a Passover Seder according to Essene calendar, but can acknowledge the validity of the after meal prayer of thanksgiving... which would be done at every meal time.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). T.

I would also agree with you Heber.


I also looked again at 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.
It seems to me that they met often with communial meal but it has taken on a new meaning.

25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

 

[ContraMundum]

Vis - it sounds like you certainly get the idea of what those EO theologians were getting at!