Galatians,still stands today against the circumcision.

[Frogster]

Paul in Galatians was quite clear when he confronted Peter about shrinking back from eating with Gentiles, due to the circumcison party, those who we could call, early Messianic Jews. Peter was not in line with the truth of the gospel. Peter previously learned that God did not want the law of Moses any more, as per Peter’s vision of the sheet in Acts 10, and Peter’s speech in Jerusalem confirmed it.

Paul confronted Peter because he would have created a large rift in the Antioch church, if Peter’s behavior went unchallenged. Previously in Acts 15 we see it was a most pivotal time in church history for sure. And thank God, because if the circumcision party prevailed, we would not be in the true grace of God, rather a false gospel that relied on works of the law. Paul was solid spiritual steel,and put the Gospel before everything, even Peter’s pride.

The new covenant is of a promise that the Gentiles are a part of, and the children of Hagar, can not inherit with the children of the free woman, repeated in this verse out of Romans.


Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Paul did not want them to try to attain perfection through the law.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So when the same teaching is brought forth today, seeking to put the church under the bondage of law, there should be no other reply, than that of Sarah,along time ago.


Galatians 4:30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”

 

[ebia]

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Paul did not want them to try to attain perfection through the law.

Nobody ever thought they could - that was not why Pharasees etc tried to keep the law - so that cannot be what Paul meant.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So when the same teaching is brought forth today,seeking to put the church under the bondage of law,there should be no other reply,than that of Sarah,along time ago.

Who is doing so?

 

[Frogster]

Nobody ever thought they could - that was not why Pharasees etc tried to keep the law - so that cannot be what Paul meant.

Sure that is what he meant,what else could it be? He did not want that to be under weak and beggarly principles.

Who is doing so?

Any person,or group that teaches that Christians are to live under the law.

 

[MrPolo]

I'm confused by the subject line. Are you saying Paul taught circumcision is wrong?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ subscribes but has decided to just lurk for awhile

 

[Standing Up]

Hbr. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

There are those folks then and since then to the present day who do not believe that perfection with God was provided through His Son for those who believe it.

See Hbr. 6.

That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

I believe, therefore I do.

 

[Frogster]

I'm confused by the subject line. Are you saying Paul taught circumcision is wrong?

Hi MrPolo.What I meant was Paul was battling the Circumcision party.He referred to them as "the circumcision" in Phil 3.He said if you accept circumcision,Christ will profit you nothing.He did not want them to live under the laws of the Torah,which he and Peter called bondage.They wanted then to cicumcise in order that they walk under the Jewish rules and regulations.

Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This verse indicates that he also did not preach it.

Gal 5:11 But if I, brothers,still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.

 

[Frogster]

LLOJ subscribes but has decided to just lurk for awhile

Hi LLOJ.I know you like Galatians too!

Hbr. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

There are those folks then and since then to the present day who do not believe that perfection with God was provided through His Son for those who believe it.

See Hbr. 6.

That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

I believe, therefore I do.

Good post indeed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi LLOJ.I know you like Galatians too!

Yepperz! I may start a Galatian verse by verse thread......LLOJ ponders......

 

[squint]

Romans 2:29

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 7:14

For we know that the law is spiritual

One might simply put away FLESHLY VIEWs of these matters OF LAW and they'd have NO ISSUES with the 'letter' of same.

Paul obviously didn't have any issues doing what the LAW required in this matter:

Acts 16


1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul followed the LETTER OF THE LAW when it suited him to do so, and without hesitation. He also DENIED the LETTER when it suited him to do so.

1 Corinthians 9:20

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law.

Paul OPELY PLAYED both sides of the fence in these matters.

enjoy!

squint

 

[watchm@n]

Any person,or group that teaches that Christians are to live under the law.

I am not sure what you mean, are you saying it is ok to break the 10 commandments or that Gentiles are not subject to the Jewish civil law?

 

[cyberlizard]

Sure that is what he meant,what else could it be? He did not want that to be under weak and beggarly principles.
Any person,or group that teaches that Christians are to live under the law.

and yet Paul speaks of the law being Holy. He speaks of the law being good. He speaks of the law being spiritual.

Paul was a Pharisee, the idea that the words God himself spoke at Sinai being weak and beggarly would have been the farthest thing from his mind, after all, these were the VERY words of God, the very words capable of sperating between joints and marrow, sould and spirit, showing the thoughts and intentions of the heart, dictated into scripture. The Torah useful for teaching (impossible if its weak and beggarly). Useful for correcting (impossible if it is weak and beggarl). Good for training in being upright (impossible if it is weak and beggarly).



Steve

p.s. the Torah of God, given through the intermediary Moses which remain valid until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
and yet Paul speaks of the law being Holy. He speaks of the law being good. He speaks of the law being spiritual.

Frogger is talking about the "circumcision" group.
How did circumcision make them holy?

 

[cyberlizard]

Hi MrPolo.What I meant was Paul was battling the Circumcision party.He referred to them as "the circumcision" in Phil 3.He said if you accept circumcision,Christ will profit you nothing.He did not want them to live under the laws of the Torah,which he and Peter called bondage.They wanted then to cicumcise in order that they walk under the Jewish rules and regulations.

Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

This verse indicates that he also did not preach it.

Gal 5:11 But if I, brothers,still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.

may i recommend a brief introduction to two papers, both with different outlooks on gentile relationship (now) to the Torah. The first is from First Fruits of Zion entitled, Divine invitation which argues the gentiles are permitted under such passages in Ephesians to take part in the Torah without becoming Jewish (circumcised), the second, entitled, a critical review of the divine invitation.

As you will see if you take time to read them, messianic judaism is not the monolithic outlook you want it to be. Both pieces are very pro-Torah, but come to very different (if somewhat subtle) conclusions. I would read the FFOZ paper first otherwise the latter will make little sense.


Steve

p.s. Paul was still teaching circumcision, just not to gentiles. Covenant membership is (according to Paul) on the basis not on the basis of ethnicity/being jewish or conversion (under law & works of law respectively).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

p.s. Paul was still teaching circumcision, just not to gentiles. Covenant membership is (according to Paul) on the basis not on the basis of ethnicity/being jewish or conversion (under law & works of law respectively).

So Messianics get circumcised in order to be have membership in a Covenant

 

[cyberlizard]

Frogger is talking about the "circumcision" group.
How did circumcision make them holy?

because being 'holy' is nothing to do with fidelity of moral character (directly) and everything to do with being set apart for a given purpose. Sometimes the meanings we attached to words because of religious tradition really works against our understanding of things.


Steve

 

[cyberlizard]

So Messianics get circumcised in order to be have membership in a Covenant

you're not understanding what I am saying.

the word circumcision in the majority on instnaces in Paul's writings means 'conversion to Judaism' or to 'become ethnically Jewish'.

Paul said, that the way to covenant membership is by faith, not by swapping your gentile status for Jewish status.


Steve

p.s. hope that makes it clearer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

you're not understanding what I am saying.

the word circumcision in the majority on instnaces in Paul's writings means 'conversion to Judaism' or to 'become ethnically Jewish'.

Paul said, that the way to covenant membership is by faith, not by swapping your gentile status for Jewish status.


Steve

p.s. hope that makes it clearer.

HUH? Do all Messianics practice circumcision....yes or no....And who the heck would want to convert to OC Judaism?

 

[cyberlizard]

HUH? Do all Messianics practice circumcision....yes or no....And who the heck would want to convert to OC Judaism?

not to sound rude or anything, but do all NC Christians practice baptism as a sacrament? of course not, so why do you presume messianic are a single homogenous group. Messianic Judiasm in not a monolithic blob, it is many faceted in it's theology just as is 'ordinary' christianity.

My question is who spoke about converting to OC Judaism. I have only discussed participation in the covenant relationship. After all non-Jews have obviously been grafted into something. I would suggest that something is the 'Israel of God'.


Steve

p.s. if you read the articles I linked too, many of the questions you have about MJ would probably be answered by some very fine biblical teaching, by some very well respected teachers and authors.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

not to sound rude or anything, but do all NC Christians practice baptism as a sacrament? of course not, so why do you presume messianic are a single homogenous group. Messianic Judiasm in not a monolithic blob, it is many faceted in it's theology just as is 'ordinary' christianity.

My question is who spoke about converting to OC Judaism. I have only discussed participation in the covenant relationship. After all non-Jews have obviously been grafted into something. I would suggest that something is the 'Israel of God'.

Steve

I have a lot I could say about the Messianic sect but I will leave that for now.
Btw, I suppose your sect is aware of how the True Orthodox Jews view your sect, right?

Messianic Jewish Hate Campaign Against Real Jews in Full Swing Samurai Mohel