Was Mary the greatest woman that ever lived?

[bbbbbbb]

One more question: Do you believe that Mary is the only person
who rose again from the dead like Jesus did?

Did Mary rise from the dead, and what evidence do you use to support
this belief?

1. No. Nor do Catholic believe that. As CJ pointed out, the dogma of the Assumption holds that Mary ascended directly to heaven without tasting death at all.

2. There is no support, biblical or historical, for such a belief.

 

[narnia59]

1. No. Nor do Catholic believe that. As CJ pointed out, the dogma of the Assumption holds that Mary ascended directly to heaven without tasting death at all.

2. There is no support, biblical or historical, for such a belief.

#1 is not correct. The dogma of the Assumption makes no statement as to whether or not Mary died, and whether or not she did is not relative to the dogma itself.

 

[MrPolo]

#1 is not correct. The dogma of the Assumption makes no statement as to whether or not Mary died, and whether or not she did is not relative to the dogma itself.

That's correct. While there are statements in the document that suggest tradition says she died, the defining paragraph itself was worded very carefully so as NOT to define whether or not she experienced death. Here is the defining paragraph from the dogma, paragraph 44 of Magnificentissimus Deus:

[T]he Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.​

 

[PaladinValer]

St. Mary the Theotokos is the greatest woman who ever lived.

No other woman can claim to have given birth to Salvation Incarnate.\

No one.

 

[boswd]

I can't actually believe there are three votes against.

I mentioned this in another thread, I truely believe that there are some Protestant sects that if Mary wasn't so explcit in scriptures that she is Jesus Mother they would just love to see her just disappear.

 

[Miss Elly]

Mary was selected to give birth to Jesus Christ so that does make her very blessed and the fact that she was chosen was indeed an honor. Mary is my sister in christ, not someone to be worshiped or prayed to. I admire many people in the bible, Moses, Abraham, King David. They were all of God's chosen. I believe that if Mary were here she would say, Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, not me. Do not worship ME, worship him. He died for you, I did not. This is not disrespecting Mary to say this.

Also, I don't believe Jesus had any of Mary's DNA because if he did, he would have inherited Adam's fallen state. He was the second Adam. Mary was obedient to God, but she had sin's fallen nature. She was born into it just like we all were. Satan wants to get our minds off of the true redeemer, Mary was the vessel to carry God's son because God chose her to be. Whether anyone believes this or not is up to you. But let's obey the first commandment, Thou shalt love GOD with ALL of your heart.

 

[boswd]

Mary was selected to give birth to Jesus Christ so that does make her very blessed and the fact that she was chosen was indeed an honor. Mary is my sister in christ, not someone to be worshiped or prayed to. I admire many people in the bible, Moses, Abraham, King David. They were all of God's chosen. I believe that if Mary were here she would say, Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, not me. Do not worship ME, worship him. He died for you, I did not. This is not disrespecting Mary to say this.

Also, I don't believe Jesus had any of Mary's DNA because if he did, he would have inherited Adam's fallen state. He was the second Adam. Mary was obedient to God, but she had sin's fallen nature. She was born into it just like we all were. Satan wants to get our minds off of the true redeemer, Mary was the vessel to carry God's son because God chose her to be. Whether anyone believes this or not is up to you. But let's obey the first commandment, Thou shalt love GOD with ALL of your heart.

If Jesus doesn't have any of Mary's DNA that what was the point of having God incarnated through a human? The whole point is to make his son truely human (from Mary) and truely Divine (from God).
And of all the woman in the world he chose Mary. Does this not click with some Protestant sects? It really just blows my mind that they think of her as ONLY a vessal. Blows my mind.

Nobody worships her ,just honor her, though many Fundamentalists would try to say otherwise.


I find it interesting that only the Fundamentalist whose theology was developed in early America hold this view. Even the biggest names in the Reformation held her in much higher regards. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and John Wesley (though Wesley wasn't a Reformationist)

 

[PaladinValer]

Mary was selected to give birth to Jesus Christ so that does make her very blessed and the fact that she was chosen was indeed an honor.

This is excellent.

However...

Mary is my sister in christ, not someone to be worshiped or prayed to.

Here's the problem.

1. Mary is Jesus' Mother, not His daughter. If we are co-inerhitors with Christ, who is our Brother, that makes Mary not our sister but our mother.
2. With all due respect, for all the sola scriptura that Protestants claim to adhere to, a great deal of you, almost always the Evangelicals, largely utterly ignore the Greek. No one latrias Mary, the archangels, or the Saints. We doulia them. Those words have never been simply picked out of the air; there are found clearly in Scripture and the Church, in united voice, acclaimed and acknowledged their difference and their intended use in the last and Seventh Ecumenical Council.
3. Don't ever ask anyone to pray for you and don't dare pray for anyone else if you don't like people asking their Virgin Mother to pray for them. That's only fair, right?

I admire many people in the bible, Moses, Abraham, King David. They were all of God's chosen. I believe that if Mary were here she would say, Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, not me. Do not worship ME, worship him. He died for you, I did not. This is not disrespecting Mary to say this.

Except that your agenda is clear. The problem is, as shown above, it is based on ignoring the Greek and using simply English.

Also, I don't believe Jesus had any of Mary's DNA because if he did, he would have inherited Adam's fallen state.

Original Sin has nothing to do with biology. What you are implying here, in a sense, is that the material is evil. That isn't orthodoxy; it is Gnosticism/Manicheanism!

Original Sin has to do with soul and nature. The former is admittedly immaterial but our nature is both our material and immaterial. It has nothing to do with actual genetics however. It is our very substance; what makes us actually human. And there is far more to being human than DNA.

Jesus is St. Mary's Son. As such, He naturally has her DNA. That is pure biological fact. To say He doesn't is to imply that she isn't His Mother. That is completely contrary to Holy Scripture.

He was the second Adam. Mary was obedient to God, but she had sin's fallen nature.

Just because she may have been born with a "fallen disposition" doesn't mean she actually inclined to it during life. Jesus was human too; He was tempted by the Devil. People like to think He was impervious to such things, yet the holy gospels show that He was tempted. The difference with Jesus is that He is not just 100% humand but 100% God. And St. Mary didn't need any sort of "protection" for that.

She was born into it just like we all were.

Some say that is debatable.

Satan wants to get our minds off of the true redeemer, Mary was the vessel to carry God's son because God chose her to be.

St. Mary was more than a vessel. She is the best example of Christ's mission. She is the epitome of fidel faith. She is the perfect model of virtue and goodness. She is, perhaps above all that (and more), the idea of theosis. God brought His Mother right into heaven, body and all, upon her Dormition. She lived that pure a life. She undergone theosis to such a point during her life that she never had to enter sheol.

 

[MrPolo]

It really just blows my made that they think of her as ONLY a vessal.

We know Elizabeth, who was filled with the Holy Spirit when she spoke, called her blessed among women and "the mother of my Lord."

 

[Breckmin]

I truely believe that there are some Protestant sects that if Mary wasn't so explcit in scriptures that she is Jesus Mother they would just love to see her just disappear.

My experience has been that it is much more of a "reaction" to Mariola
as they sometimes put it and it really isn't directed against Mary but
rather at those who pray to her and worship her.

I worded the poll to address a degree of the issue of omniscience to be fair.

There will be many who will argue that they are not omniscient regarding
who the greatest woman who ever lived so it "could be" someone who
we do not know, who was somehow more faithful, etc.

For me, this is about serving the Lord. Mary served the Lord here on
earth more than any of us by taking care of Jesus.

I don't believe she should be worshipped...but I do believe she should
be respected like we respect John the Baptist or the apostle Paul.

 

[pgp_protector]

My experience has been that it is much more of a "reaction" to Mariola
as they sometimes put it and it really isn't directed against Mary but
rather at those who pray to her and worship her.

I worded the poll to address a degree of the issue of omniscience to be fair.

There will be many who will argue that they are not omniscient regarding
who the greatest woman who ever lived so it "could be" someone who
we do not know, who was somehow more faithful, etc.

For me, this is about serving the Lord. Mary served the Lord here on
earth more than any of us by taking care of Jesus.

I don't believe she should be worshipped...but I do believe she should
be respected like we respect John the Baptist or the apostle Paul.

Is that how she Lost him when he was a Child by serving him so constantly ?
(I've never lost my child, have you ? )

 

[Breckmin]

Also, I don't believe Jesus had any of Mary's DNA because if he did, he would have inherited Adam's fallen state.

Miss Elly, is it possible that the sin nature is not passed down through
mere DNA or biological/genetic information? Isn't sin a spiritual issue?

Doesn't it make more sense that the sin nature would be passed down
to the soul/spirit rather than the nucleotide alignment or the overall
structure of the genome and the different levels of genetic information?

I DO believe that Jesus had a similar DNA to Mary...but I also believe
that the Holy Spirit provided the miracle of fertilization without sperm
so perhaps the codon cipher was logically taken from Mary's genetic
information as well as the three dimensional structure of the genome.

Some will say Mary was sinless. I do not know if this was necessary.
I lean the other way... but we will all find out in heaven some day
whether the immaculate conception also applies to Mary.

What is the historical argument for this?

 

[Breckmin]

Is that how she Lost him when he was a Child by serving him so constantly?

You clearly don't know her circumstances for this. I believe here, that
you are bordering on a false accusation of Mary, number 1.

(I've never lost my child,

You also never lived in the First Century where your circumstances could
have been completely different. Your child could have even been taken
from you and killed...

If you have never "lost" your child, then perhaps it is by the grace of
God that you never had a non-compliant ADHD or ODD child constantly
<<This is clearly NOT a reference to Jesus but a reference to other children>>
running away from you. You are fortunate that you are not a single
parent with no grandparent's support - and so on.

have you ? )

I have four children. One of my boys one time went into an arcade
"tent" at a theme park that was set up so it looked like an entrance
with no other exits....

Well there was a rear exit that many parents didn't know about..and
my child happened to be one of the boys who walked out the rear exit
and wondered around the amusement park for awhile until I contacted
security and had him found...and they held him until I could get over
to him. I had three other children at the park who did not get lost..
but 1 out of 4 walked out of an exit that shouldn't have been there.
The park eventually fixed the problem for parents.

There are many many parents who's children are taken or they
run away in situations that are/were unavoidable. Parents with
multiple children can not be omniscient about each one's whereabouts
just as children get lost on field trips...it is not always the fault of the
teacher.

If you have never been in other people's circumstances then I
would encourage you not to judge their parenting. There are situations
where children get separated from parents and it is not always the
result of the parent's negligence.

Was Mary a single mom with other children in the First Century?

 

[Breckmin]

Mary is Jesus' Mother, not His daughter. If we are co-inerhitors with Christ, who is our Brother, that makes Mary not our sister but our mother.

I'm sorry....but this is one of the worst cases of induction I have ever
seen since the pre-tribulational rapture. A Christian deductionist could
never hold such a position. I agree with Miss Elly. Mary is my sister in
Christ...because she is "in Christ."

She is NOT the mother of God. She is the mother of the Man that God
became. God has no body and needs no mother. He has always existed.

Perhaps we will nitpick at statements made in the English language, or
in the koine Greek...but the bottom line is that logic is the greatest
hermeneutic we have...and what you are inducing is clearly illogical.

 

[Breckmin]

No one latrias Mary, the archangels, or the Saints. We doulia them. Those words have never been simply picked out of the air; there are found clearly in Scripture and the Church, in united voice, acclaimed and acknowledged their difference and their intended use in the last and Seventh Ecumenical Council.

It is interesting that this is what I hear Protestants constantly talk
about...especially Reformists. But you don't just "dulia" Mary. You
"hyperdulia" Mary. I think that most protestants are happy that there
is at least a distinction between adoration (latrias) and veneration..
BUT in practice the two are often indistinguishable.

It is the "practice" of Catholics that Protestants have a problem with -
NOT always the technical wording of hyperdulia verses latrias.

Speaking of practice. I can't imagine any Christian that would not
"protest" the sale of indulgences...

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm sorry....but this is one of the worst cases of induction I have ever
seen since the pre-tribulational rapture. A Christian deductionist could
never hold such a position. I agree with Miss Elly. Mary is my sister in
Christ...because she is "in Christ."

No one is questioning whether she is "in Christ." The relationship however between the BVM and Jesus however is being questioned.

She is NOT the mother of God. She is the mother of the Man that God
became. God has no body and needs no mother. He has always existed.

This isn't orthodox Christianity. This is Nestorianism. Jesus is, in every way, God. The same Substance that the Father and the Holy Spirit are. Not the same Person, but the same Substance. That Substance is this: Yahveh; the Triune Deity; the only One and True God.

Jesus is God the Son Incarnate. He is 100% Human and 100% God. He is both perfectly, unconfusedly, not intermixed or any other nonsense. He is both substances in complete cooperation. There is not one nature or will that dominates or is submissive.

St. Mary is God's Mother. That is clear in Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Reason.

Perhaps we will nitpick at statements made in the English language, or
in the koine Greek...but the bottom line is that logic is the greatest
hermeneutic we have...and what you are inducing is clearly illogical.

I'm perfectly logical. You however are not and, worse of all, promoting the idea that Jesus isn't God.

 

[Miss Elly]

If Jesus doesn't have any of Mary's DNA that what was the point of having God incarnated through a human? The whole point is to make his son truely human (from Mary) and truely Divine (from God).

And of all the woman in the world he chose Mary. Does this not click with some Protestant sects? It really just blows my mind that they think of her as ONLY a vessal. Blows my mind.

Nobody worships her ,just honor her, though many Fundamentalists would try to say otherwise.


I find it interesting that only the Fundamentalist whose theology was developed in early America hold this view. Even the biggest names in the Reformation held her in much higher regards. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and John Wesley (though Wesley wasn't a Reformationist)

In answer to your response, isn't God able to turn himself into a new human being without having Mary's DNA? That is what he did. That's why he was called the SECOND ADAM, because he was a new human, but God encased in that flesh.

Yes Mary was a vessel to carry the savior and I am not trying to minimize her part in obedience to God. You don't know how I feel about Mary, you just think you do. I admire other people in the bible as well. They all make up God's kingdom. I really don't know why you folks ooohh and aahhh so much over Mary because she couldn't have done anything without the Holy Spirit. I know Mary would not want all the praise and admiration that is heaped upon her. She would say praise God, not me. She was not God, she has her reward in heaven just like we will if we make it. All through enternity, her obedience will shine like the stars in the heaven.

 

[Miss Elly]

This is excellent.

However...




Here's the problem.

1. Mary is Jesus' Mother, not His daughter. If we are co-inerhitors with Christ, who is our Brother, that makes Mary not our sister but our mother.
2. With all due respect, for all the sola scriptura that Protestants claim to adhere to, a great deal of you, almost always the Evangelicals, largely utterly ignore the Greek. No one latrias Mary, the archangels, or the Saints. We doulia them. Those words have never been simply picked out of the air; there are found clearly in Scripture and the Church, in united voice, acclaimed and acknowledged their difference and their intended use in the last and Seventh Ecumenical Council.
3. Don't ever ask anyone to pray for you and don't dare pray for anyone else if you don't like people asking their Virgin Mother to pray for them. That's only fair, right?

Except that your agenda is clear. The problem is, as shown above, it is based on ignoring the Greek and using simply English.



Original Sin has nothing to do with biology. What you are implying here, in a sense, is that the material is evil. That isn't orthodoxy; it is Gnosticism/Manicheanism!

Original Sin has to do with soul and nature. The former is admittedly immaterial but our nature is both our material and immaterial. It has nothing to do with actual genetics however. It is our very substance; what makes us actually human. And there is far more to being human than DNA.

Jesus is St. Mary's Son. As such, He naturally has her DNA. That is pure biological fact. To say He doesn't is to imply that she isn't His Mother. That is completely contrary to Holy Scripture.



Just because she may have been born with a "fallen disposition" doesn't mean she actually inclined to it during life. Jesus was human too; He was tempted by the Devil. People like to think He was impervious to such things, yet the holy gospels show that He was tempted. The difference with Jesus is that He is not just 100% humand but 100% God. And St. Mary didn't need any sort of "protection" for that.



Some say that is debatable.



St. Mary was more than a vessel. She is the best example of Christ's mission. She is the epitome of fidel faith. She is the perfect model of virtue and goodness. She is, perhaps above all that (and more), the idea of theosis. God brought His Mother right into heaven, body and all, upon her Dormition. She lived that pure a life. She undergone theosis to such a point during her life that she never had to enter sheol.

I refuse to argue with you. You are so wrong, you just don't know it.

 

[Breckmin]

Don't ever ask anyone to pray for you and don't dare pray for anyone else if you don't like people asking their Virgin Mother to pray for them. That's only fair, right?

Personally I believe such a thing would be very unforgiving. IF she was
to ever ask Mary to pray for her - isn't it logical that Mary would forgive
her "if" Mary didn't agree with something that she once said?

Except that your agenda is clear. The problem is, as shown above, it is based on ignoring the Greek and using simply English.

She wasn't addressing technical wording, though, she was addressing
"practice." I agree with her, btw. I do not believe that Mary would
want us to take our eyes off of Jesus. I do believe that people
continually saying the Rosary is displeasing to Mary.

Maybe Mary is the only person in a glorified body with Christ. Maybe
Mary was possibly without sin during her pregnancy. I don't know.
But if I was Mary, I would be very displeased with anyone praying
to me IF I was not supposed to be constantly prayed to.

St. Mary was more than a vessel. She is the best example of Christ's mission.

Not certain I disagree because I am not sure what you mean.

She is the epitome of fidel faith. She is the perfect model of virtue and goodness.

Christ is the model for this, not His mother. The problem I have with
your wording is that you used the word "perfect" before you said
virtue and goodness. If you said - she is a great model of virtue, etc
then I would agree with you... but I am uncomfortable with your use
of the word "perfect" in this context because I do not know what you
mean.

She is, perhaps above all that (and more), the idea of theosis.

When you say "idea" of theosis instead of its attainment, I might be
tempted to agree with you if you said she was an epitome of an example
of the idea of theosis...but I am not certain about what you mean.

Do you believe that Mary achieved a divine nature by her works?

God brought His Mother right into heaven, body and all, upon her Dormition. She lived that pure a life. She undergone theosis to such a point during her life that she never had to enter sheol.

Sheol is a word that could easily be misunderstood in this context.

I don't believe she lived a "pure" life. I believe she lived the best life
that any woman could live. I respect her tremendously as the mother
of my Lord and Savior and King.

I respect Mary, because I believe that Jesus would want me to respect
her. This does NOT mean, however, that I should have false beliefs
about her life as possibly of having ever committed a moral imperfection.

I believe Jesus is Mary's Savior..and Mary is not her own savior. I believe
that Mary was not sinless.

 

[narnia59]

In answer to your response, isn't God able to turn himself into a new human being without having Mary's DNA? That is what he did. That's why he was called the SECOND ADAM, because he was a new human, but God encased in that flesh.

Would God be able to do that? Of course. Is that what he did? Not according to Scripture. It specifies that Christ's flesh is from the SEED of David, not created anew by God. He descended from David, and therefore Mary.

Ro 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Ti 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel