Liar Lunatic or Lord argument

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Unfortunately retracted.

 

[RedRaven]

This has nothing to do with deny anyone anything. Church adheres to the biblical, traditional and theological principles that goes deeper beyond your superficial understanding. I never said the Church denies leadership to women, they can not be ordained due to theological reasons. The undeniable historically proven fact is that Jesus was born as a full man, not a woman. This is why Jesus must be in turn represented by men as priests. If women were allowed to represent him, then Jesus would be both male and female–a hermaphrodite (in between sexes/both). Now, full human beings must be either male or female because God created them that way in the Garden of Eden. Hermaphrodites are not fully human, but a part of fallen Nature. It’s unfortunate for them, but nonetheless the truth. To claim Jesus is a hermaphrodite is putting us in dangerous territory because God must become fully human in order to redeem humanity from its sins. To fail to be both fully human and fully divine at once would undermine our very salvation. Thus, Jesus could only redeem the world as a man. When we are at worship our priest or bishop becomes an Ikon of Christ. Christ is God but He is also a fully perfect human man. That means that a priest, as His Ikon or most true symbol, must also be a man. A priest must be male because Jesus is a man. In the Incarnation God became man not woman. The male priesthood is a supernatural concept. In that sense it is a mystery just as the Incarnation or Resurrection is a mystery. Reason and logic cannot fully explain it, or define it, or detract from the truth of it, any more than you and I can explain it as being the way of God. We can say that God has no particular sex, male or female. But in the Revelation of God through Christ, God chose to become a man because He wanted to take to Himself a bride which is the Church, the Family of God.




That is not a giant theological shift. In synoptics, Christ is asked the question under oath if He was the Son of the Most Blessed, He said "I AM". Jews were not theologically deprived as some people in our day and age, the meaning is clear by claiming Divinity from whom the Salvation comes from. Are you stuck in semantics?





I am not interested in your mockery. Gospels clearly state that they were alive, not animated.



Wrong. Your view is out-of-whack, simply incomplete. IMO, you are not a heretic because you don't seem to have fully grasped the theological and historical existence of the Christian Church. There weren't lots of churches, there were locally identified sects. However the Orthodox Church had a hierarchical state that wherever it is established the same truth was brought along. Ecclesiastical history shows that government takes over in 4th century for the purpose of unity in the country. This has nothing to do with what Church teaches. If those of other beliefs were exiled, this is government's doing, not Church's...



You are right, you "get around it" That simply puts it. Christ didn't claim Divinity such as "Before Abraham was, I AM" in spiritual meaning. He said it literally. Historically, the biblical interpretation comes to us through Church and saints and they didn't pick and choose. Christ's words were clear enough to let people pick up stones around Him more than once, therefore the trilemma, once the information is set before us, is well-nigh irrefutable. One can paste options to it, of course, and make it a "higher"-lemma; and one can also speculate. But I have yet to see a new option that is viable - the "honestly mistaken" routine has yet to satisfy.



You seem to remain ignorant to the other ecclesiastical information that has been passed on by the Christian Church, Church didn't only pass on the Bible. St. Matthew was the author of the gospel.

I know you there is a lot going on in this thread but I am truly shocked by the part I bolded. If they are not fully human then how did they come to be? Can two fully human people come together and create something less than fully human. In a process that God created? Aside from the Garden of Eden (God specifically creating one man and one woman), do you have anything that backs this thought process? Medical or Biblical?

It also begs the question: Does your spirit (what ultimately resides with God once this body has run it's course) have a gender assignment?

and if this needs to be taken to pm (it's kind of off topic) I'm okay with that.

*edit* I had to remove the link to post.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Don't take it personally but I think the bolded quote also indicates that there is the fact of "fallen" nature. We are no longer what God meant to be. In my opinion, if we do have hereditary diseases, deficiencies like low hearing, low vision etc, we are not what God meant to be. My wife wore glasses all her life due to her parents, what was her fault in that business? None... Sin and corruption through disease have infiltrated our genes and became part of us, that is the fallen nature the article is talking about. I do think same goes for homosexuals, some do not "convert" to be a homosexual but I believe born with those tendencies or they acquire it at an early age. So it goes without saying that Hermaphrodites are not what God meant to be but they happened. Pretty much similar to why people called MJ a "freak", an abnormally formed organism, especially a person or animal regarded as a curiosity or monstrosity... My humble opinion which might not mean much as far as scientific facts are concerned. Science can not measure the divine, therefore rejects it, so I don't know how else to back it up.

 

[JesuSlavex]

I call a foul on this one

 

[RedRaven]

Science does not reject the divine. They can't prove it but they are clear that they can't disprove it either.

Fallen nature aside I must say I appreciate that you can see that some homosexuals are born that way. You are honestly the first Christian (of any denomination) I have heard say that. Aside from that I'm afraid I need to bow out of the conversation. When people speak about disease being "fallen nature" and not what God intended I start to lost my objectivity. I have a four year old with an autoimmune disease that she was diagnosed with 19 months ago. You wouldn't know it just by looking or talking to her, that is until you see the pump that stays connected to her 24/7. I take real issue with her being lumped into the idea of "fallen nature" or not what God intended. She is perfect, beautiful (both inside and out) and handles her disease with more strength and grace than I think I could have. We are the ones that manage it but ulitimately she is the one that lives with what it does to her body. So, as you can see I have something personal in this discussion and that does not make for good back and forth. When personal feelings get involved the discussion almost always gets derailed.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Science does not reject the divine. They can't prove it but they are clear that they can't disprove it either.

I apologize, I must have been thinking out loud, I think I meant some scientists. I remember a discussion about some setting up a "prayer" experiment if it helped people get better quickly. I guess some people do go the distance to mock the divine, sorry that was irrelevant here.

Fallen nature aside I must say I appreciate that you can see that some homosexuals are born that way. You are honestly the first Christian (of any denomination) I have heard say that.

I do believe in the Divine, I admit science often makes errors, but I do not reject science if that makes sense. There is a fine line of compatibility.

Aside from that I'm afraid I need to bow out of the conversation. When people speak about disease being "fallen nature" and not what God intended I start to lost my objectivity. I have a four year old with an autoimmune disease that she was diagnosed with 19 months ago. You wouldn't know it just by looking or talking to her, that is until you see the pump that stays connected to her 24/7. I take real issue with her being lumped into the idea of "fallen nature" or not what God intended. She is perfect, beautiful (both inside and out) and handles her disease with more strength and grace than I think I could have. We are the ones that manage it but ulitimately she is the one that lives with what it does to her body. So, as you can see I have something personal in this discussion and that does not make for good back and forth. When personal feelings get involved the discussion almost always gets derailed.

I agree and I am sorry to hear about it. Believe me I am certainly not lumping her to that idea, as I would be committing something close to false dichotomy, leaving no other option, either this or that. I wish I could say more to explain, if I could, but seeing it is your daughter we would be talking about, it is not right. God bless you both, make you safe and sound.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

If it would help, there are a couple good articles on Google about "God and Disease"...

 

[RedRaven]

Thank you, but that would not help. I'm not a sit back and watch what happens kind of person. I tend to immerse myself in learning about topics that interest me or affect my family. The knowledge I've gained in the last 19 months has been amazingly beneficial. Since I was a Christian when all of that happened I spent a great deal of time researching God and Disease...

 

[RedRaven]

thank you

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

How wrong is all I can say. This above post (#30) is a quite profound example of how one's words can be twisted into something else and projected as an intolerant stance. How wrong... The point that was being made earlier is also emphasized in the words of the Lord, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Can RedRaven see something out of this? Not once it was meant that her child was God's abandoned, and God didn't love her... How wrong to twist words to reflect such an abominable understanding...

Quoting an Isaiah passage is theologically off-context and only provocative as we know from Scriptures God also saw that everything He created was perfect and good. With that knowledge can one say a hermaphrodite is what God meant to be? From Scriptures we say no. But how in the world can someone read this as "God also doesn't love them" So wrong and sad. So if God didn't mean it, who did? The question becomes why did He allow it? It is evil. Does God create evil? Isaiah seems to think, no, not the moral evil of sin, but He does create the calamity and disaster following. Not once God says He doesn't love what is created... Not once a post by me in this thread suggested some people are better than others, which is purely an evil suggestion at best... Don't fall into traps of mean spirited... Rather strive for seeing the big picture behind pain and suffering, that is all. If "Every disease-ridden, afflicted, ill child or heamaphrodite was lovingly created by God" then He has a purpose for doing so. Don't fall into the traps of people who like to play with words as I observe from the above post.

 

[RedRaven]

I did not interpret what you said as God not loving my child or abandoning her. I didn't make that leap, you assumed I did. Don't put words into my mouth, or assume my level of understanding in the matter.

Edit* Since you want to be me back into this conversation I am going to post a question I should have started with. You made the claim. Outside of God creating Adam and Eve as clear gender opposites, what proof do you have to back it? Does God speak to why children are afflicted?

 

[JesuSlavex]

If you say that a person born with an affliction wasnt what "God had intended", then you limit the authority of God and his omnipotence. How can a being who knows past present and future have an unintended result? Foreknowledge is intent.

BTW, I'll back out of this conversation if I start frothing at the mouth

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I did not interpret what you said as God not loving my child or abandoning her. I didn't make that leap, you assumed I did. Don't put words into my mouth, or assume my level of understanding in the matter.

No no, I was not addressing you, rather post number 30... Here are the parts I had a concern about...

Lol this is madness.

Every disease-ridden, afflicted, ill child or heamaphrodite was lovingly created by God and you would be wise to 1 love God, 2, love your neighbour and leave everything else in his hands.

I cannot believe anyone would consider themselves better than someone else...

God created everyone, how dare you argue that he made some people 'better' or less blessed than others, everyone is a miracle.
I cannot believe this!!

These were misrepresenting my initial thoughts and response. I figured I had to clarify more.

Edit* Since you want to be me back into this conversation I am going to post a question I should have started with.

Like I said, I only wanted to clarify my position which was twisted into some heartless stance in post # 30.

You made the claim. Outside of God creating Adam and Eve as clear gender opposites, what proof do you have to back it? Does God speak to why children are afflicted?

I think there is enough theological work out there where it is explained death and decay entered world through the sin (fall) of man. I do not wish to re-hash the issue in a thread where this doesn't belong. Like I said, although God never brings sickness, He can use anything and everything that happens in life to build us up and make us mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Is it sometimes God's will for believers to be sick?

Why does God allow birth defects?

Why does God allow sickness?

About the nonsensical opinion that concerns God and His foreknowledge; foreknowledge doesn't necessarily mean that God is at fault or He is responsible for the fall of man and foreknowledge absolutely does NOT mean intent. God had the foreknowledge of Adam who would ultimately sin, why didn't He stop Him? Adam had a Freewill. Further we see in Scriptures that God had grieved over what He created (before the flood) because man, His creation proved EVIL, again something He didn't intend, but yet with the foreknowledge He left it to man's freewill. He saved us, and left it to our freewill to accept it.

 

[RedRaven]

<snip> Like I said, although God never brings sickness, He can use anything and everything that happens in life to build us up and make us mature and complete, not lacking anything.
<snip>

First, your third link contradicts the first part quoted. From your link:

It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes. While sickness is not directly addressed in the passage, Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God disciplining us to "produce a harvest of righteousness" (verse 11). Sickness can be a means of God's loving discipline.

As for the second part. Maybe as my daughter or other children who suffer in this life for unknown reasons reach the point in life when they want to know why I can direct their questions to you. I think explaining that God has allowed it (if he didn't directly cause it himself) because it's a character building exercise, he's building them up, would be exactly the comfort they need.

But your post does bring to the surface another question I have been chewing on. I don't wish to further derail this topic so I may start a new one in the non-christian room. Let me see if I can put all of my thoughts together clearly on that matter.

 

[JesuSlavex]

About the nonsensical opinion that concerns God and His foreknowledge; foreknowledge doesn't necessarily mean that God is at fault or He is responsible for the fall of man and foreknowledge absolutely does NOT mean intent. God had the foreknowledge of Adam who would ultimately sin, why didn't He stop Him? Adam had a Freewill. Further we see in Scriptures that God had grieved over what He created (before the flood) because man, His creation proved EVIL, again something He didn't intend, but yet with the foreknowledge He left it to man's freewill. He saved us, and left it to our freewill to accept it.

I disagree again and it is far from nonsensical. I never said that God was responsible.

Is it free will that allows a child to be born with down syndrome or another genetic disorder? Is it free will that gives salvation an aborted fetus (who according to Biblical Doctrine 101 is sinful at the moment of conception)? Does God truly allow these things to happen to those who we deem as innocent of any wrong, and use them to magnify his glory and continue his ministry?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

It certainly appears like a contradiction, however I did not intend "brings sickness" that way. Nevertheless, what I said and the link mentioned ends with the same idea,

"He can use anything and everything that happens in life to build us up and make us mature and complete, not lacking anything." ... "to accomplish His sovereign purposes"... So if I rephrase my statement, "although God doesn't wish pain and suffering through whatever means maybe, He uses anything and everything that happens in life, including sickness, to build us up and make us mature and complete, not lacking anything, to accomplish His sovereign purposes... I don't know how else to put it but I am not the spokesperson for God if there is an issue here against Him, I certainly do not like the tone in "I think explaining that God has allowed it (if he didn't directly cause it himself) because it's a character building exercise, he's building them up, would be exactly the comfort they need." This is not the first time I see folks change their ways because "God did something" -Again God? Why can't you sit wherever you dwell and be quiet, mind your own business God?- I certainly can not continue a conversation where what I believe in these matters appears to be mocked without proper patience and knowledge. Have a nice day.

 

[RedRaven]

You assume too much. I wasn't trying to mock. I bear the burden of explaining to my daughter why her life is what it is. Why everything she eats has to be weighed and requires a mathematical equation. Why life dealt her the cards she has in front of her. How do you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? It's pretty straight forward for most. If your curious about how is goes in this household pm me and I'll copy you the blog post I did about that. What kind of justice is there in the answer "Your this way because of sin, but God will use this to help build and shape you"?

You also assume too much when you say

This is not the first time I see folks change their ways because "God did something"

That is not why I walked away from Christianity. This thread is not the place for that story.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I am sorry but I do not assume in this matter, please make note that in my posts I hardly use the word "you, yours" etc. So it is hardly apparent that I am targeting a specific person in regards of "mocking" ... I am addressing the whole, the public, the visitors of this thread... I am speaking my mind. I didn't say "so and so." Sorry again, there is no need to be "frustrated" with me, if I am getting the vibe correctly...

Why do we explain anything to our kids? Why do we tell them about things like Santa only to break their hearts one day, why do we send them to school away from mom and dad... How superficial and heartbreaking would it sound to a child when it is said "Your this way because of sin, but God will use this to help build and shape you"? while it will definitely cause the child blame God at the end? Does it make sense?

God has not blessed me with a child, so does anyone think that they are suffering because their child also is... Ask me...

 

[RedRaven]

I am sorry but I do not assume in this matter, please make note that in my posts I hardly use the word "you, yours" etc. So it is hardly apparent that I am targeting a specific person in regards of "mocking" ... I am addressing the whole, the public, the visitors of this thread... I am speaking my mind. I didn't say "so and so." Sorry again, there is no need to be "frustrated" with me, if I am getting the vibe correctly...

Why do we explain anything to our kids? Why do we tell them about things like Santa only to break their hearts one day, why do we send them to school away from mom and dad... How superficial and heartbreaking would it sound to a child when it is said "Your this way because of sin, but God will use this to help build and shape you"? while it will definitely cause the child blame God at the end? Does it make sense?



God has not blessed me with a child, so does anyone think that they are suffering because their child also is... Ask me...

I am not frustrated, if I come across that way I apologize. Passionate, yes. Frustrated, no.

I'm not sure I am where you are going with your last line, but I'm asking...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I'm not sure I am where you are going with your last line, but I'm asking...

You are blessed beyond your understanding with that little one. Count them blessings. I think this is enough for this thread.