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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Healthcare, lets take one lie head on.
- Thread starter Billnew
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If you need proof that our current employer-based healthcare system is hurting our economy, you need look no further than General Motors.
It was cheaper for General Motors to keep auto plants open in Canada, even though Canadian employees made as much or more than American ones, because they didn't have the crippling cost of providing healthcare for their employees and retirees in Canada. Thousands of American jobs lost to Canada because of our American employer-based healthcare system.
Every GM car sold had $1500 in costs for retirees' health insurance....have you bought a new car recently? I guess that the high price is part of what we Americans pay for not having universal health care.
Yes, I think we need to fix our health care system in order for our economy to move forward, and, even though we have private employer-based insurance, we, like every other American family, are paying more and more each year to get less and less.
It was cheaper for General Motors to keep auto plants open in Canada, even though Canadian employees made as much or more than American ones, because they didn't have the crippling cost of providing healthcare for their employees and retirees in Canada. Thousands of American jobs lost to Canada because of our American employer-based healthcare system.
Every GM car sold had $1500 in costs for retirees' health insurance....have you bought a new car recently? I guess that the high price is part of what we Americans pay for not having universal health care.
Yes, I think we need to fix our health care system in order for our economy to move forward, and, even though we have private employer-based insurance, we, like every other American family, are paying more and more each year to get less and less.
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Which is why Obama said this legislation does not cover illegal immigrants to dispute the lie of those who specifically say it does.
If they were to say that illegals will recieve ER treatment just like they always have without or without either the Dem or Rep proposal they they would actually have a point of fact.
....but they know out and out lying about the proposal is more effective....kind of like the Joe Wilson idiot.
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R
reverend C
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no. they are less expensive because they don't routinely have hundred thousand dollar plus claims. how much does it cost to fix your dented hummer? there is more at stake here.
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In post number 27 I made a point about this issue by quoting from the House Ways and Means Admendment Highlights, but it went un-noticed. So here it is again in a shorter version.
If any of you sincerely believe that national health care will not be extended to cover illegal aliens, then why are Democrats in congress frantically opposing any amendment which would explicitly forbid this?
If any of you sincerely believe that national health care will not be extended to cover illegal aliens, then why are Democrats in congress frantically opposing any amendment which would explicitly forbid this?
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The bill itself already explicitly bans it. It states in no uncertain terms that federal dollars will not be going to illegals for the purpose of purchasing health care. Period. An illegal will have to break the law and commit fraudulent acts in order to get these federal dollars.
Using your logic, laws which state that minors can not buy alcohol are actually plans to give minors alcohol.
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lordbt
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Why not? If health care is, as many wrongfully claim, a human right, why not extend it to illegals? Are they not human? Do they not have rights? Are we just going to let them die in the streets while Bill Gates sails around on his yacht? And what of our moral imperative to help the poor? What of the Sermon on the Mount? Do illegals not count? How selfish can you liberals get?
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I thought we were talking about this bill? Obama stated that federal dollars will not go to illegal aliens for health care as part of this bill. He was called a liar. The bill explicitly states that federal dollars will not go to illegal aliens. Any comment?
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Which doesn't address the specific language which bans them from receiving federal dollars:
Healthcare Reform Myths
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sdmsanjose
Regular Member
Billnew
My job is that I verify citizenship and legal aliens for Government housing assistance.
The social security card is not the only document that is required. They must also give a photo ID/Resident Alien card, and a birth certificate.
The photo ID alien card has a picture and an Immigration number. All those numbers are checked by the Department of Home Land Security. The photos, Social Security cards, and birth certificates are also checked. This does not take a lot of time and does not cost a lot of money. The system is already in place and would be very easy for the health Care system to use this service.
As has been stated, there are some illegals that will get through the system but IMO they are very few. The health care system will not succeed or fail based on the illegal persons involvement with the program.
Just a suggestion, if you want to oppose the proposed health care plan dont make a case against the health care plan based on the abuses by illegals. That is a weak case.
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Americans are just one international flight away from being exposed to a passenger carrying any one of the world's deadly infectious diseases.
To exclude 15 million "illegals" in America from healthcare is not only immoral but shortsighted.
Millions of people without proper immunization and unable/afraid to seek medical care puts the rest of the nation at a much higher risk.
To exclude 15 million "illegals" in America from healthcare is not only immoral but shortsighted.
Millions of people without proper immunization and unable/afraid to seek medical care puts the rest of the nation at a much higher risk.
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Lets try this again. If the language in the health care reform bill is so iron-clad in locking illegal aliens out, they why is the question still being debated in the senate?
Health negotiators focus on illegal immigrants
Quote:
“Health care negotiators in the Senate pressed for a way to ensure that illegal immigrants can't get access to government-funded insurance, a contentious issue now front and center after a Republican congressman's outburst during President Barack Obama's speech.”
“Senators said that's forced the committee to work on provisions verifying legal status before an individual can get coverage.”
“Such verification can be tricky. Many Democrats fear that verification procedures keep legal residents from getting insurance, and in the House, they rejected Republican attempts to add verification requirements to the House health care bill.”
End Quote. Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32797636...h_care_reform/
There are three versions of the bill out there, and the section you guys keep quoting which you claim forbids illegals from accessing health care period I have only found to be in one of them. If no provisions are added to verify citizenship status, how would illegals be prevented from accessing the program, regardless of what section 1233 says?
Health negotiators focus on illegal immigrants
Quote:
“Health care negotiators in the Senate pressed for a way to ensure that illegal immigrants can't get access to government-funded insurance, a contentious issue now front and center after a Republican congressman's outburst during President Barack Obama's speech.”
“Senators said that's forced the committee to work on provisions verifying legal status before an individual can get coverage.”
“Such verification can be tricky. Many Democrats fear that verification procedures keep legal residents from getting insurance, and in the House, they rejected Republican attempts to add verification requirements to the House health care bill.”
End Quote. Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32797636...h_care_reform/
There are three versions of the bill out there, and the section you guys keep quoting which you claim forbids illegals from accessing health care period I have only found to be in one of them. If no provisions are added to verify citizenship status, how would illegals be prevented from accessing the program, regardless of what section 1233 says?
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reverend C
Guest
so unless we can eliminate the possibility of fraud in any program or entity of government, it should be dismantled? say goodbye to everything that you hold dear now. this is an imbicilic argument, simply a way of throwing a wrench in anything obama. extrapolate this argument to a program you find valuable. apply the same standard. then simply say you're sorry for not thinking this through.
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They are discussing enforcement, not whether or not illegals will be covered by the bill.
The conservatives have argued that the bill will cover illegals. This is false.
You misread. The bill forbids illegals from getting federal dollars, as in tax payer money. Illegals right now can access health care through the emergency room, and I doubt that law will be changed as part of this bill.
It will be up to the agency enforcing the language in the bill, more than likely. However, the claim made by conservatives that this bill will give federal money to illegals is obviously false.
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