John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

[Der Alte]

are you changing your requiement from needing a predicate to a specific kind of predicate, in order for john 8.58 to not mean that Jesus is god? 'before abraham was" is not a predicate nominative, but it is a predicate. Am is a coupla or linking verb. Coupla is just another word for linking verb. Am links or couples I with "before abraham was" > " Before abraham was" is the predicate. Therefore your argument that a predicate is need in john 8.48 is false because there is one. It is "before abraham was." AS to what kind of predicate "before Abraham was" is , I dunno. Ask a grammatician.

Since you are presuming to make grammatical pronouncements that there is a predicate in this phrase, then the burden of proof is on you to determine what kind of predicate it is. "Before" is an adverb, and "was" is a verb. Good luck.

πριν G4250 ADV αβρααμ G11 N-PRI γενεσθαι G1096 V-2ADN​

And FYI all the disproven counter examples, such as the blind man, all have a predicate nominative, e.g. "I am [the man born blind]"

 

[Der Alte]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who,” Hypostatic union,," and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

[SIZE=-1]it's not the nature of god that you are describing with your trinity words, it is your feeble attempt to explain how 3 gods are one god. you just call that the nature of god.[/SIZE]

Thank you for your unsolicited, unsupported and irrelevant opinion.

[c]A Brief Definition of the Trinity
by James White[/c]

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.

The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:

1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.

2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.

3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.​

 

[2ducklow]

Since you are presuming to make grammatical pronouncements that there is a predicate in this phrase, then the burden of proof is on you to determine what kind of predicate it is. "Before" is an adverb, and "was" is a verb. Good luck.

πριν G4250 ADV αβρααμ G11 N-PRI γενεσθαι G1096 V-2ADN
​

this is too easy. The predicate in this case is an adverbial preposistional phrase. see grammar class below..
​

​

And FYI all the disproven counter examples, such as the blind man, all have a predicate nominative, e.g. "I am [the man born blind]"

so the rule is that if i am doesn't have a predicate nominative, then someone saying I am is saying they are god. where did you get this rule? and why does it have to be a predicate nominative? why not all the other various kinds of predicates? why just a predicate nominative? not gonna answer are you?

anyway, here's an example of Jesus saying "I am" with a non predicate nominative predicate.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


here's one where Jesus uses a predicate nominative, that is if you accept the understood he.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

another non predicate nominative predicate, in Jesus own words.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

so your made up rule that someone saying I am without a predicate nominative is god, is false, as proven by scripture.

Every complete sentence contains two parts: a subject and a predicate. The subject is what (or whom) the sentence is about, while the predicate tells something about the subject.

Subject and Predicate

Predicate what is said about the subject. It comprises a verb, which may stand alone, or the entire verb phrase including complements. Children read.
Friends and neighbours stopped by to offer help after the event.
Grass is green.
Predication The act of saying something about a subject. Preposition One of a small number of relational (function) words like "in," "on," "behind," etc. which are known as prepositions because they are "pre-posed" or "placed before" the phrases they introduce. In the box which sat on the porch behind the house was an egg.

http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/GramGloss.html#P


so you see you could say "I am" and am would be the predicate and the verb. but in the case of john 8.58 the predicate is 'before abraham was".

 

[2ducklow]

Thank you for your unsolicited, unsupported and irrelevant opinion.

yo

I like my explanation of what james white said better than your explantation so I'll repost it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, (three persons)Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.[/FONT]

</title> </head> <body link="#003399"> <html> <head> <meta name="description" content="Christian Apologetics, Theology, Information on Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. A reformed ministry dedicated to sharing the Gospel of God'

maybe if yo
​

red is not a contraddiction, just more illogic from jameswhite. he says a contradiction is saying 3 beings within one being. that is not a contradiction. 3 rocks in a sack is not a contradiction, and 3 rocks in one sack is 3 beings in one being. he can't even define what a contradicton is, then he tries and explain how trinity isn't 3 beings in one being by saying theres a difference between a being and a person. how much more ridiculuous can he get, read on it gets worse. a person isn't even in the equation that he says is a cointradiciton, namely 3 beings in one being.

look at the color code. he says god the father , the son, and the holy spirit are persons, and personalities. he can't keep his story straight cause his paper is so confusing he doesn't even know what he is saying. one time he says god is a personal being (person) then he changes his story and says god is a what, which is what a cat and a rock are.

not 3 persons at the end, he contradicts himself and says 3 persons are personal beings and personalities (a person is a personal being, so if a person of god isn't a person then don't call it what it isn't.)

remember a what is a being, a who is a personality, and a what and a who is a person. knowing this key that james white tried to hide unravels his hidden contradictroy explanation. without the key, his explanation is just a jumbled mass of words makeing absolutely no sense little more than garble.
with the key, one can see that what james white is saying (without his several contradictions that are probably the result of hmi getting so lost in his explantion he didn't know what he was saying) that god is a personal being (a person) and he is a what and a who. A what is just a being. a what and a who is a personal being. a what is a rock , cat or god, and a who is a personality.; therfore, god(a person) is one what (god or cat or rock) and 3 who's (personalities however he calls these personalities 3 persons, but previoulsy he said a person is a what and a who, obviously to confuse everyone.)

maybe if you color coded your explanation as I did you could get your point across better.[/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]this is too easy. The predicate in this case is an adverbial preposistional phrase. see grammar class below..[/SIZE]

Here is the complete sentence. Where is the preposition?

&#960;&#961;&#953;&#957; G4250 ADV [adverb] &#945;&#946;&#961;&#945;&#945;&#956; G11 N-PRI [noun] &#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; G1096 V-2ADN [verb] &#949;&#947;&#969; G1473 P-1NS [pronoun] &#949;&#953;&#956;&#953; G1510 V-PAI-1S [verb]​

[SIZE="-1"]so the rule is that if i am doesn't have a predicate nominative, then someone saying I am is saying they are god. where did you get this rule? and why does it have to be a predicate nominative? why not all the other various kinds of predicates? why just a predicate nominative? not gonna answer are you?

I gave my reason, ALL, as in 100% of the counter proof texts, involving ego eimi such as the blind man have a predicate nominative, i.e. "I am [the man born blind.] So if all you antis are going to use the same out-of-context proof texts then Jesus' words in John 8:58 must also have a predicate nominative. If you are going to press this argument I suggest you get busy and find a proof text with the exact same grammatical construction as John 8:58

[SIZE="-1"]anyway, here's an example of Jesus saying "I am" with a non predicate nominative predicate.[/SIZE]
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Irrelevant in two ways. I did NOT say every occurrence of "ego eimi" must have a predicate nominative. And two your own source, "Every complete sentence contains two parts: a subject and a predicate. The subject is what (or whom) the sentence is about, while the predicate tells something about the subject."

[SIZE="-1"]here's one where Jesus uses a predicate nominative, that is if you accept the understood he.[/SIZE]

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Still irrelevant! But I understand the predicate as "I am [the light of the world:]" vs. 12, Who Jesus told his audience he was from the beginning of this particular conversation.

[SIZE="-1"]another non predicate nominative predicate, in Jesus own words[/SIZE].

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Still irrelevant.

[SIZE="-1"]so your made up rule that someone saying I am without a predicate nominative is god, is false, as proven by scripture.[/SIZE]

You continue to demonstrate that you cannot read and comprehend or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. If you are going to try to argue that when Jesus said "ego eimi" it is not a claim to deity because others used the words in the N.T. then you will have to find proof texts which have the same grammatical construction as John 8:58. So far all the proof texts have a predicate nominative, John 8:58 does not.

every complete sentence contains two parts: a subject and a predicate. The subject is what (or whom) the sentence is about, while the predicate tells something about the subject.

Subject and Predicate

Predicate what is said about the subject. It comprises a verb, which may stand alone, or the entire verb phrase including complements. Children read.
Friends and neighbours stopped by to offer help after the event.
Grass is green.

Predication The act of saying something about a subject. Preposition One of a small number of relational (function) words like "in," "on," "behind," etc. which are known as prepositions because they are "pre-posed" or "placed before" the phrases they introduce. In the box which sat on the porch behind the house was an egg.
[SIZE="-1"]so you see you could say "I am" and am would be the predicate and the verb. but in the case of john 8.58 the predicate is 'before abraham was".[/SIZE]

You quoted from a grammar but seem incapable of reading and understanding what you yourself posted. If "before Abraham was" is a predicate, what kind of predicate is it and how is it the same as the use of "ego eimi" by any other person anywhere in the N.T?[/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1] yo

I like my explanation of what james white said better than your explantation so I'll repost it.

maybe if you color coded your explanation as I did you could get your point across better.[/SIZE]

Your contradictory, convoluted post was rubbish the first time you posted it 4-5 years ago, and it still is. Even after all these years you are still incapable of understanding, or are deliberately misrepresenting, White and even the definitions of common words such as "person," "personal," "personality," "being" etc. None of these words are synonymous! Your argument is absolutely meaningless and a total waste of everyone's time.

 

[2ducklow]

Here is the complete sentence. Where is the preposition?

&#960;&#961;&#953;&#957; G4250 ADV [adverb] &#945;&#946;&#961;&#945;&#945;&#956; G11 N-PRI [noun] &#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; G1096 V-2ADN [verb] &#949;&#947;&#969; G1473 P-1NS [pronoun] &#949;&#953;&#956;&#953; G1510 V-PAI-1S [verb]
​

Like I said , this is too easy. before is the preposistion. adverbs can be preposistions.

What is a Preposition?


A preposition links nouns, pronouns and phrases to other words in a sentence. The word or phrase that the preposition introduces is called the object of the preposition.
A preposition usually indicates the temporal, spatial or logical relationship of its object to the rest of the sentence as in the following examples:
The book is on the table.The book is beneath the table.The book is leaning against the table.The book is beside the table.She held the book over the table.She read the book during class.(I am before he was LOL 2dl)

In each of the preceding sentences, a preposition locates the noun "book" in space or in time.
A prepositional phrase is made up of the preposition, its object and any associated adjectives or adverbs. A prepositional phrase can function as a noun, an adjective, or an adverb. The most common prepositions are "about," "above," "across," "after," "against," "along," "among," "around," "at," "before," "behind," "below," "beneath," "beside," "between," "beyond," "but," "by," "despite," "down," "during," "except," "for," "from," "in," "inside," "into," "like," "near," "of," "off," "on," "onto," "out," "outside," "over," "past," "since," "through," "throughout," "till," "to," "toward," "under," "underneath," "until," "up," "upon," "with," "within," and "without."

What is a Preposition?

You continue to demonstrate that you cannot read and comprehend or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. If you are going to try to argue that when Jesus said "ego eimi" it is not a claim to deity because others used the words in the N.T. then you will have to find proof texts which have the same grammatical construction as John 8:58. So far all the proof texts have a predicate nominative, John 8:58 does not.

you mean I have to find someone in the bible who clearly is not Jesus saying the sentence "before abraham, or George, or Susan or anyone was, I am". There are none. there are no other examples in the entire bible of anyone either god or man saying "I am before he was'' OR "I am before they was" that is nonsense talk. "Before Abraham was, I am" is nonsense.. Nobody ever talks like that. You want me to show you even one example of someone saying I am with the exact grammar of john 8.58. Well put the shoe on the other foot, show me even one example of anyone anywhere in the bible saying something goofy like "I am before he was.". in other words your proof that the g oofy statement, "I am before he was:" has to mean that Jesus is god is because no one else says it anywhere in the bible so jesus is claiming to be god. not good logic at all deralter. of course no one ever says that, Jesus didn't even say that, it's just some goofy translation put in there to prove Jesus is god. God did not say in ex. 3.14 "I am that I am before adam was." that would be goofy talk, and god don't talk goofy.


what Jesus really said is not goofy, what he said was "before abraham was, I am he.".

 

[annrobert]

Jesus said I AM the Way and the Truth and the Life

so without Jesus we are lost and deceived and dead.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.


Isaiah 9

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.



collosians 1
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Like I said , this is too easy. before is the preposistion. adverbs can be preposistions.[/SIZE]]

&#960;&#961;&#953;&#957; G4250 ADV [adverb] &#945;&#946;&#961;&#945;&#945;&#956; G11 N-PRI [noun] &#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; G1096 V-2ADN [verb] &#949;&#947;&#969; G1473 P-1NS [pronoun] &#949;&#953;&#956;&#953; G1510 V-PAI-1S [verb]​

[SIZE=-1]What is a Preposition?[/SIZE]

A preposition links nouns, pronouns and phrases to other words in a sentence. The word or phrase that the preposition introduces is called the object of the preposition.

A preposition usually indicates the temporal, spatial or logical relationship of its object to the rest of the sentence as in the following examples:
The book is on the table.The book is beneath the table.The book is leaning against the table.The book is beside the table.She held the book over the table.She read the book during class.(I am before he was LOL 2dl)

In each of the preceding sentences, a preposition locates the noun "book" in space or in time.

A prepositional phrase is made up of the preposition, its object and any associated adjectives or adverbs. [Does not say a preposition can be an adverb!] A prepositional phrase can function as a noun, an adjective, or an adverb. [Does not say a preposition can be an adverb!] The most common prepositions are "about," "above," "across," "after," "against," "along," "among," "around," "at," "before," "behind," "below," "beneath," "beside," "between," "beyond," "but," "by," "despite," "down," "during," "except," "for," "from," "in," "inside," "into," "like," "near," "of," "off," "on," "onto," "out," "outside," "over," "past," "since," "through," "throughout," "till," "to," "toward," "under," "underneath," "until," "up," "upon," "with," "within," and "without."

The interlinear identifies "prin" as an adverb, NOT a preposition. Your meaningless copy/paste is flushed down the toilet!

[SIZE=-1]you mean I have to find someone in the bible who clearly is not Jesus saying the sentence "before abraham, or George, or Susan or anyone was, I am". There are none. there are no other examples in the entire bible of anyone either god or man saying "I am before he was'' OR "I am before they was" that is nonsense talk. "Before Abraham was, I am" is nonsense.. Nobody ever talks like that. You want me to show you even one example of someone saying I am with the exact grammar of john 8.58.

I said the same grammatical structure. I did NOT say the exact same words. That would be a sentence with an adverb+noun+verb+pronoun "ego"+verb "eimi".

[SIZE=-1]Well put the shoe on the other foot, show me even one example of anyone anywhere in the bible saying something goofy like "I am before he was.". in other words your proof that the g oofy statement, "I am before he was:" has to mean that Jesus is god is because no one else says it anywhere in the bible so jesus is claiming to be god. not good logic at all deralter. of course no one ever says that, Jesus didn't even say that, it's just some goofy translation put in there to prove Jesus is god. God did not say in ex. 3.14 "I am that I am before adam was." that would be goofy talk, and god don't talk goofy.[/SIZE]

Meaningless ramble which does not address anything I have said or implied. I am fine with "Before Abraham was, I am."

[SIZE=-1]what Jesus really said is not goofy, what he said was "before abraham was, I am he.".[/SIZE]

When you have earned a PhD/ThD in Theology with peer reviewed expertise in Biblical Greek, then your opinion of how any passage should be translated might have some weight. I am not aware of any translation, by anyone, which translates it as "I am he."

Also see if you can produce any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support you argument, like this?

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [A.D. 120-202.]

And in that He points out, by means of His own advent, the ignorance of a people in a servile condition. But when He terms His disciples “the friends of God,” He plainly declares Himself to be the Word of God, whom Abraham also followed voluntarily and under no compulsion (sine vinculis), because of the noble nature of his faith, and so became “the friend of God.” But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning (“Before Abraham was,” He says, “I am”), but that He in His goodness might bestow eternal life upon Abraham himself, inasmuch as the friendship of God imparts immortality to those who embrace it.

From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus

The sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the “Rock was Christ” Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.

Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [A.D. 185-254]

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul,” that he may understand the meaning of the saying, “I and My Father are one.” We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not “reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared,” as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Again He says, “I am the truth;” and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, “who is the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of His person,” has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself.

Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]

It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God; but if he should not also be God when he is of God, no more should he be man although he should be of man. And thus both doctrines would be endangered in one and the other way, by one being convicted to have lost belief in the other. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.”

A Treatise Of Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]

“And God,” says he, “was the Word.” Therefore God proceeded from God, in that the Word which proceeded is God, who proceeded forth from God. If Christ is only man, how does He say, “If any man shall keep my word, he shall not see death for ever?” Not to see death for ever! what is this but immortality? But immortality is the associate of divinity, because both the divinity is immortal, and immortality is the fruit of divinity. For every man is mortal; and immortality cannot be from that which is mortal. Therefore from Christ, as a mortal man, immortality cannot arise. “But,” says He, “whosoever keepeth my word, shall not see death for ever;” therefore the word of Christ affords immortality, and by immortality affords divinity. But although it is not possible to maintain that one who is himself mortal can make another immortal, yet this word of Christ not only sets forth, but affords immortality: certainly He is not man only who gives immortality, which if He were only man He could not give; but by giving divinity by immortality, He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, “Before Abraham was, I Am?” For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham. If Christ was only man, how does He say, “And I know them, and my sheep follow me; and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish?” And yet, since every man is bound by the laws of mortality, and therefore is unable to keep himself for ever, much more will he be unable to keep another for ever. But Christ promises to give salvation for ever, which if He does not give, He is a deceiver; if He gives, He is God. But He does not deceive, for He gives what He promises. Therefore He is God who proffers eternal salvation, which man, being unable to keep himself for ever, cannot be able to give to another. If Christ is only man, what is that which He says, “I and the Father are one?” For how can it be that “I and the Father are one,” if He is not both God and the Son? — who may therefore be called one, seeing that He is of Himself, being both His Son, and being born of Him, being declared to have proceeded from Him, by which He is also God;which when the Jews thought to be hateful, and believed to be blasphemous, for that He had shown Himself in these discourses to be God, and therefore rushed at once to stoning, and set to work passionately to hurl stones, He strongly refuted His adversaries by the example and witness of the Scriptures. “If,” said He, “He called them gods to whom the words of God were given, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, ye say of Him whom the Father sanctified, and sent into this world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God.” By which words He did not deny Himself to be God, but rather He confirmed the assertion that He was God.​

[/SIZE]

 

[marcusampe]

Modern day figures of speech are largely irrelevant when translating and interpreting 1st century Koiné Greek.

But people have to think of how did people express themselves at that time and what did they mean when they said something.
As I said did they not mean the same thing when we say, "my father and I are the same" that 'I think the same as my father'.
Or when I say at the phone "I am" that I mean "It is my who you are (trying) to call/to speak" or in a general conversation "It is me who you are looking for" / " "It is me who you need". It also can mean 'I am the one" or with the accent on I "I am the only one" [not meaning I am the Only one (which means something totally different)][/quote]

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity.

where is this written in the Holy Scriptures?

He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Naturally the Force of God, His Speaking and Thinking can be aware of something, or feel and speak. It is part of God Himself but not another person. When the Spirit would be a God then you would have a second God next to the Father, though the Bible is very clear that we may only have One God and not many gods.

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407).

You say

This is false.

But perhaps you should think more about why they say that. Because I think they are right about that.

If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

It is the mind of God therefore it can do everything god wants it to do because He has full control over His mind. What we cannot say about ourselves.

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

It is a pity that I cannot give you the links to the websites where you can find more information and biblical quotes on the attribute of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. But when you 'gooogle' it you shall be able to find the answers.

Names of the Spirit

You can find clarifications, but nowhere that it is a person next to the other person, which we call our Father.

1. God -Acts 5:3-4 = “...to lie to the Holy Spirit, ...thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Ac 5:3-4 ASV) = logical when you lie against the Spirit that is to God because the Spirit is the thinking and therefore also the being of God. But Not an other person.

The Holy Spirit rested upon Peter and the apostles as a divine pressure and authority. Though the falsehood was committed against the apostles, since they possessed God’s Spirit, it was a sin against it.
“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1Co 2:16 ASV)

For “Who has known the Mind of YHWH?" / For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah " Paul quotes Isaiah 40:13 from the Jewish Greek Septuagint of the third Century BCE. The LXX uses TIS EGNO NOUN KYRIOU. The Hebrew Text does not use “mind” [NOUN] but “of the Spirit.” Thus, Paul understands the “Spirit” to be “the Mind” of God. In both the LXX and the Greek text of Paul there is no article before KYRIOU suggesting the Tetragram could well have been in the original.

"Who will instruct Him?” [Isaiah 40:13 LXX] However, Christ’s mind we do possess!" / But we do have the mind of Christ." Or, PME: we who are spiritual have the same thoughts of Christ; MOF: our thoughts are Christ’s thoughts. [Note: if Jesus Christ was, in fact, Jehovah it is not logical that one could have the mind of one and not the other.] Consistent with the previous phrase this could all read: “Who has known the Spirit of YHWH?… But, we do have the Spirit of Christ.” In 1Corinthians 1:10 Paul counselled to have the “same mind” and here we now know what “mind” this is. Compare Romans 15:5, Philippians 2:5, 1Peter 4:1.

2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18: “But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.” (2Co 3:18 ASV)

“And so all of us, with faces unveiled, continue to reflect like mirrors YHWH’s glory –continually transformed into the very same image, from glory unto glory–even from a Supreme Being who is Pneuma.” (2Co 3:18 MHM)

In a certain way is God a spirit. He is no human. You cannot see Him.
“For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:” (Ro 1:20 ASV) an invisible being/ creature (Wil) For the invisible things of him (AKJV, AV) those things of God which the eye is unable to see (BBE) his invisible qualities – both his eternal power and his divine nature – have been clearly seen, (CJB) etc

This spiritual being which is a supreme being has and is Spirit. But when you speak of the Holy Spirit you speak about the thinking of this spiritual being. The Force of God.

3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10: “However, by means of the Pneuma, The God has revealed [this secret Mystery] to us. For the Pneuma searches everything, including the depths of The God.” (1Co 2:10 MHM)

Here it is clearly talking about this Force. It is the thinking who or which considers.

4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16:“Are you not aware that you are God’s Divine Habitat, and that the Pneuma of The God dwells in all of you?” (1Co 3:16 MHM)

God can live in us by His own power. We can carry this thinking of God in our minds. It is not a person that shall run around in our body or in our brains.

5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26: “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:” (Joh 15:26 ASV)
the Helper, the Truthful Spirit.

Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to bear witness of the Saviour.

This promise was made by our Lord to His disciples before His ascension: "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:47-49).

These words were fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost. He began a work then that He now continues—indwelling believers and empowering them to witness as they give Him complete control of their lives. It is Gods force that encountered those who wanted to believe in God and in the resurrection of His Holy Son.

This is confirmed by (#Ac 1:8): "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." It was or is the Power of God who gave them the strength and which can give us power.

The disciples no longer hesitated to witness after the Day of Pentecost. We read in (#Ac 5:32): "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

God had given them the Power; he had not given them a person to accompany them.

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:49).


6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14: “how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Heb 9:14 ASV)
The Greek is DIA PNEUMATOS AIONIOU, “through [a] pneuma aionion.” Whether the Spirit here refers to an everlasting attitude or disposition [mental inclination] on the part of Christ, or alludes to God’s Spirit is one of personal interpretation. You can also take it that by the Force of God, by the working of the Holy and eternal Spirit Christ got his messages from God and got to know what God wanted from him.

Attributes of (9)

Please ‘google’ “Attributes of God”

Symbols of (3)

Like you say it are symbols: that which by custom or convention represents something else. Because you get a personification in a ‘Dove’ it does not mean that the Spirit is neither person nor an animal (a dove) either when it is spoken of as being forces as the wind and fire does not make it a person.

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

Naturally when you have a force there can be an action or there can be a result of the force working into something or some one. The points you mention confirms more that the Spirit is a Force than it can proof that it is a person.

 

[2ducklow]

But people have to think of how did people express themselves at that time and what did they mean when they said something.
As I said did they not mean the same thing when we say, "my father and I are the same" that 'I think the same as my father'.
Or when I say at the phone "I am" that I mean "It is my who you are (trying) to call/to speak" or in a general conversation "It is me who you are looking for" / " "It is me who you need". It also can mean 'I am the one" or with the accent on I "I am the only one" [not meaning I am the Only one (which means something totally different)




where is this written in the Holy Scriptures?



Naturally the Force of God, His Speaking and Thinking can be aware of something, or feel and speak. It is part of God Himself but not another person. When the Spirit would be a God then you would have a second God next to the Father, though the Bible is very clear that we may only have One God and not many gods.

You say

But perhaps you should think more about why they say that. Because I think they are right about that.



It is the mind of God therefore it can do everything god wants it to do because He has full control over His mind. What we cannot say about ourselves.



It is a pity that I cannot give you the links to the websites where you can find more information and biblical quotes on the attribute of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. But when you 'gooogle' it you shall be able to find the answers.


You can find clarifications, but nowhere that it is a person next to the other person, which we call our Father.

1. God -Acts 5:3-4 = &#8220;...to lie to the Holy Spirit, ...thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.&#8221; (Ac 5:3-4 ASV) = logical when you lie against the Spirit that is to God because the Spirit is the thinking and therefore also the being of God. But Not an other person.

The Holy Spirit rested upon Peter and the apostles as a divine pressure and authority. Though the falsehood was committed against the apostles, since they possessed God&#8217;s Spirit, it was a sin against it.
&#8220;For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.&#8221; (1Co 2:16 ASV)

For &#8220;Who has known the Mind of YHWH?" / For &#8220;who has come to know the mind of Jehovah " Paul quotes Isaiah 40:13 from the Jewish Greek Septuagint of the third Century BCE. The LXX uses TIS EGNO NOUN KYRIOU. The Hebrew Text does not use &#8220;mind&#8221; [NOUN] but &#8220;of the Spirit.&#8221; Thus, Paul understands the &#8220;Spirit&#8221; to be &#8220;the Mind&#8221; of God. In both the LXX and the Greek text of Paul there is no article before KYRIOU suggesting the Tetragram could well have been in the original.

"Who will instruct Him?&#8221; [Isaiah 40:13 LXX] However, Christ&#8217;s mind we do possess!" / But we do have the mind of Christ." Or, PME: we who are spiritual have the same thoughts of Christ; MOF: our thoughts are Christ&#8217;s thoughts. [Note: if Jesus Christ was, in fact, Jehovah it is not logical that one could have the mind of one and not the other.] Consistent with the previous phrase this could all read: &#8220;Who has known the Spirit of YHWH?&#8230; But, we do have the Spirit of Christ.&#8221; In 1Corinthians 1:10 Paul counselled to have the &#8220;same mind&#8221; and here we now know what &#8220;mind&#8221; this is. Compare Romans 15:5, Philippians 2:5, 1Peter 4:1.

2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18: &#8220;But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.&#8221; (2Co 3:18 ASV)

&#8220;And so all of us, with faces unveiled, continue to reflect like mirrors YHWH&#8217;s glory &#8211;continually transformed into the very same image, from glory unto glory&#8211;even from a Supreme Being who is Pneuma.&#8221; (2Co 3:18 MHM)

In a certain way is God a spirit. He is no human. You cannot see Him.
&#8220;For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:&#8221; (Ro 1:20 ASV) an invisible being/ creature (Wil) For the invisible things of him (AKJV, AV) those things of God which the eye is unable to see (BBE) his invisible qualities &#8211; both his eternal power and his divine nature &#8211; have been clearly seen, (CJB) etc

This spiritual being which is a supreme being has and is Spirit. But when you speak of the Holy Spirit you speak about the thinking of this spiritual being. The Force of God.

3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10: &#8220;However, by means of the Pneuma, The God has revealed [this secret Mystery] to us. For the Pneuma searches everything, including the depths of The God.&#8221; (1Co 2:10 MHM)

Here it is clearly talking about this Force. It is the thinking who or which considers.

4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16:&#8220;Are you not aware that you are God&#8217;s Divine Habitat, and that the Pneuma of The God dwells in all of you?&#8221; (1Co 3:16 MHM)

God can live in us by His own power. We can carry this thinking of God in our minds. It is not a person that shall run around in our body or in our brains.

5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26: &#8220;But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:&#8221; (Joh 15:26 ASV)
the Helper, the Truthful Spirit.

Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to bear witness of the Saviour.

This promise was made by our Lord to His disciples before His ascension: "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:47-49).

These words were fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost. He began a work then that He now continues&#8212;indwelling believers and empowering them to witness as they give Him complete control of their lives. It is Gods force that encountered those who wanted to believe in God and in the resurrection of His Holy Son.

This is confirmed by (#Ac 1:8): "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." It was or is the Power of God who gave them the strength and which can give us power.

The disciples no longer hesitated to witness after the Day of Pentecost. We read in (#Ac 5:32): "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

God had given them the Power; he had not given them a person to accompany them.

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:49).


6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14: &#8220;how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?&#8221; (Heb 9:14 ASV)
The Greek is DIA PNEUMATOS AIONIOU, &#8220;through [a] pneuma aionion.&#8221; Whether the Spirit here refers to an everlasting attitude or disposition [mental inclination] on the part of Christ, or alludes to God&#8217;s Spirit is one of personal interpretation. You can also take it that by the Force of God, by the working of the Holy and eternal Spirit Christ got his messages from God and got to know what God wanted from him.



Please &#8216;google&#8217; &#8220;Attributes of God&#8221;





Like you say it are symbols: that which by custom or convention represents something else. Because you get a personification in a &#8216;Dove&#8217; it does not mean that the Spirit is neither person nor an animal (a dove) either when it is spoken of as being forces as the wind and fire does not make it a person.




Naturally when you have a force there can be an action or there can be a result of the force working into something or some one. The points you mention confirms more that the Spirit is a Force than it can proof that it is a person.

Why not just say that the holy spirit is personified in scriptures, rather than saying the holy spirit is a force. Naturally God is a force in the universe, the holy spirit is god's spirit. And God speaks of his spirit at times as if it were another being in personifications. but to say the holy spirit is a force leaves you open to criticism and is a weak spot in your otherwise very sound doctrine. That's how I see it anyway. Hey I am a force too but when you say the holy spirit is a force, it leads people to thing that he isn't a being. I say the holy spirit is the being of God the father, it is his spirit.

hey like my new hunter avatar? that's a .177 cal. rifle im holding.

 

[2ducklow]

The interlinear identifies "prin" as an adverb, NOT a preposition. Your meaningless copy/paste is flushed down the toilet!



I said the same grammatical structure. I did NOT say the exact same words. That would be a sentence with an adverb+noun+verb+pronoun "ego"+verb "eimi".



Meaningless ramble which does not address anything I have said or implied. I am fine with "Before Abraham was, I am."



When you have earned a PhD/ThD in Theology with peer reviewed expertise in Biblical Greek, then your opinion of how any passage should be translated might have some weight. I am not aware of any translation, by anyone, which translates it as "I am he."
Also see if you can produce any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support you argument, like this?

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [A.D. 120-202.]
​

And in that He points out, by means of His own advent, the ignorance of a people in a servile condition. But when He terms His disciples &#8220;the friends of God,&#8221; He plainly declares Himself to be the Word of God, whom Abraham also followed voluntarily and under no compulsion (sine vinculis), because of the noble nature of his faith, and so became &#8220;the friend of God.&#8221; But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning (&#8220;Before Abraham was,&#8221; He says, &#8220;I am&#8221;), but that He in His goodness might bestow eternal life upon Abraham himself, inasmuch as the friendship of God imparts immortality to those who embrace it.

From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus

The sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the &#8220;Rock was Christ&#8221; Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.

Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [A.D. 185-254]

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul,&#8221; that he may understand the meaning of the saying, &#8220;I and My Father are one.&#8221; We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not &#8220;reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared,&#8221; as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, &#8220;Before Abraham was, I am.&#8221; Again He says, &#8220;I am the truth;&#8221; and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, &#8220;who is the brightness of God&#8217;s glory, and the express image of His person,&#8221; has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself.

Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]

It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God; but if he should not also be God when he is of God, no more should he be man although he should be of man. And thus both doctrines would be endangered in one and the other way, by one being convicted to have lost belief in the other. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the &#8220;Son of David,&#8221; so as God He is proclaimed David&#8217;s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man &#8220;under the law,&#8221; so as God He is declared to be &#8220;Lord of the Sabbath.&#8221;

A Treatise Of Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]

&#8220;And God,&#8221; says he, &#8220;was the Word.&#8221; Therefore God proceeded from God, in that the Word which proceeded is God, who proceeded forth from God. If Christ is only man, how does He say, &#8220;If any man shall keep my word, he shall not see death for ever?&#8221; Not to see death for ever! what is this but immortality? But immortality is the associate of divinity, because both the divinity is immortal, and immortality is the fruit of divinity. For every man is mortal; and immortality cannot be from that which is mortal. Therefore from Christ, as a mortal man, immortality cannot arise. &#8220;But,&#8221; says He, &#8220;whosoever keepeth my word, shall not see death for ever;&#8221; therefore the word of Christ affords immortality, and by immortality affords divinity. But although it is not possible to maintain that one who is himself mortal can make another immortal, yet this word of Christ not only sets forth, but affords immortality: certainly He is not man only who gives immortality, which if He were only man He could not give; but by giving divinity by immortality, He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, &#8220;Before Abraham was, I Am?&#8221; For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham. If Christ was only man, how does He say, &#8220;And I know them, and my sheep follow me; and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish?&#8221; And yet, since every man is bound by the laws of mortality, and therefore is unable to keep himself for ever, much more will he be unable to keep another for ever. But Christ promises to give salvation for ever, which if He does not give, He is a deceiver; if He gives, He is God. But He does not deceive, for He gives what He promises. Therefore He is God who proffers eternal salvation, which man, being unable to keep himself for ever, cannot be able to give to another. If Christ is only man, what is that which He says, &#8220;I and the Father are one?&#8221; For how can it be that &#8220;I and the Father are one,&#8221; if He is not both God and the Son? &#8212; who may therefore be called one, seeing that He is of Himself, being both His Son, and being born of Him, being declared to have proceeded from Him, by which He is also God;which when the Jews thought to be hateful, and believed to be blasphemous, for that He had shown Himself in these discourses to be God, and therefore rushed at once to stoning, and set to work passionately to hurl stones, He strongly refuted His adversaries by the example and witness of the Scriptures. &#8220;If,&#8221; said He, &#8220;He called them gods to whom the words of God were given, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, ye say of Him whom the Father sanctified, and sent into this world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God.&#8221; By which words He did not deny Himself to be God, but rather He confirmed the assertion that He was God.
​

irrelevant.

 

[marcusampe]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who,” Hypostatic union," and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

You can try to express the nature of God but is it not easier just to use the words of the Bible? Would you not think that if God wanted us to recognise the Trinity He would have told us so in His given Word to us? When it is so important, God would have made it sure that we could notice it.

Here are scriptural truths … without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

You say it yourself that there is only one God, who is neither the Son nor the Spirit. So I do not see the problem?

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This Scripture passage nowhere says that Jesus is God. My brother calls also Emmanuel or Immanuel, but that does not mean he is God nor that he is god (two different things)

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The name shall be called =/= he is. People can say that somebody is some one, but therefore he is not that what is said about him. Christ also can be a mighty god but is not then God. For example for many Elvis Presley is god, and they even have churches for him, but that does not make him God. (Today a lot of footballers, artists and actors are called god, but I am sure most of the people who call them god would not consider them God / with the few exceptions)
Christ cannot be “very God”. Take those few points in consideration: do you believe Jesus Christ was being tempted? Well God can not be tempted with evil (James 1:13)
Non Trinitarians who believe in Christ Jesus as their Messiah fully believe that this man died for our sins. This gives more value to him than those who think he is God, because then he would have done as if he died. He would have faked it all. We also are very aware that God can not die and has been there from the beginning and shall ever be. (1 Timothy 6:16; Psalm 90:2)

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us,” and, “God has turned his attention to his people.” (NWT) “and, God has given thought to his people.” (BBE) “God has come to help his people.”” (Cjb) "God has taken care of his people." (GWV) “Everybody present was awe-struck and they praised God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us and God has turned his face towards his people."” (PHIL) “Others said, "God has not forgotten His People."” (WEY) saying—‘A great prophet hath risen among us,’ and—‘God did look upon His people.’” (YLT)
In other translations: “God looked down at His people” (Wil; HSVNTPS) God looked after His people (NBG51) God cared about his people (NBV) God had looked in grace about His people. (AlbNT) God came to help His people (BFC) god paid attention for His people ((Lei); God looks after His community /ecclesia (N; NBE) God looked mercifully down at His people (WV78) God took care / attended to (ZB31)
In more paraphrased or not literal translations: ‘Today we have seen what God can do” (B; Life); god took care of His people (GNB)
Logic when Jesus was placed in the womb of Mary it was by the visitation of God that Mary became pregnant. God took care of the people by taking care that there came a person on this earth who could save all. By the Force (read Spirit) of God Jesus could be born.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Diaglot) In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)
In other places there has been already debated a lot on this. (So look there please)
Here happens the same as you do with the Spirit. You take the Logos as a personality, which it is not. It was the Logos or Gods word which was there with God from the beginning as was His Spirit. by which the Word could only be spoken. By the breath of God the Words came out of His mouth and came down to us. By the Spirit (the Force of God) it was made possible that the Will of God became known to the humans who then could receive Gods Words by the prophets, who could write it down because they received Gods Spirit, which did not mean that a little human became running in their mind, dictating what was in Gods mind.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It was because God spoke, not Jesus, that all things where created. “By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” (Ps 33:6 ASV) “For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.” (Ps 33:9 ASV)

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

“He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.” (Joh 1:10 ASV)
Because of the Light Jesus it is made possible that the world becomes. Only by Christ his offer it became possible that anything could stay alive. Without Jesus we would be nowhere and the world would be lost. “Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.” (1Co 8:6 ASV) The problem with the world is that it did not know Jesus and today there are still a lot of people who do not recognise the reasons of Jesus his being.

 

[marcusampe]

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The living word of God is the action of the Spirit and active agent in effecting the new birth (Hebrews 4:12; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23) From the moment Jesus became flesh, or being a human substance, then he became the “Word” or the solemnisation of the Plan of God. Jesus became the spokesman of God. He is the only one justified to speak the Words of His Father. We only can quote the Word of God by getting it out of The Holy Scriptures, the Books given to us. Jesus received Gods Word directly from the Spirit.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. (NWT) in many translation “the only begotten son” who you let you know directly about whom is being spoken. “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” (Joh 1:18 AKJV)
Nobody has seen God, but many saw Christ. The Son “declared” the Father by the words he received from the Spirit and therefore could speak. Jesus by denouncing the works of God gave us the chance to get to know his Father.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Like I said before when we say “I am my father” or “my father and I are one” then it means that we are of the same thinking. Or that we have the same character. Or it could also mean that I have the same position or that I am equal with my father. That is also what happened with the Jews who misunderstood Jesus, thinking he was claiming to be equal with God (vs 33) You are making the same mistake. The oneness referred to, is not a declaration by Jesus that he is “very God”, but rather unity of purpose.
Remember that Jesus also gave us the task to be one with him and His Father. (John 17:11,21) Becoming like Christ would not mean that we become as God.
Jesus should also become one in us and God in Christ. When Jesus is God he would not have to ask God to come in Him because He would already be in him.
Jesus recognises the fact that he is not equal with his Father. He let us know that without his Father he is or can do really ‘nothing’. “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.” (Joh 5:19 ASV)
Jesus also made it clear that he did go to a place where His Father was, at who’s side he was going to sit at the right hand. “ I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.” (Joh 14:28 ASV) “But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,” (Ac 7:55 ASV)
“but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Heb 10:12 ASV) If you are one and the same person you can not sit next to yourself. (Or you should split you in half)

 

[marcusampe]

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Read properly: there is written that the Jews said. “The Jews answered Jesus: “We are not stoning you regarding excellent works, but regarding blasphemy! Because you as a human are making yourself a god!”” (Joh 10:33 MHM)
You as a human are making yourself a god: Or, KJV: makest thyself God; BEC: claim to be God. Nowhere has Jesus made such a claim. He has called God “my Father” and that is all. The charge is from the hateful Jewish hierarchy and is a false one. Jesus never said he was (a) god nor did he say that he was God. (Note the difference between god and God) As Jesus is to go on and answer this he only calls himself “the Son of The God.” [Or, “a son of The God.”] So for us it should also be clear that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the son.
(I recommend reading the Christadelphian ejournal Vol. 3. No. 1. Jan 2009 p 30- on this subject)

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. (NWT)
It is because he called his God, The God Jehovah/Yahweh his own father, that they found that Jesus made himself equal with God. It is because Jesus did and dared to tell such things that the Jews wanted him to be killed. (Joh 1:19; 5:15, 16; Joh 5:16; 7:1; Joh 10:33; 19:7)
For the Jews Moses could be called “god” for he spoke for God and from a certain perspective he could be equally viewed as God. [Exodus 4:15, 16; 7:1] But for them Jesus had not the right to call himself Son of God.
Jesus let them know that it is not him who does honour to him or glorifies himself. “Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;” (Joh 8:54 ASV)

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Christ’s reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ’s) pre-eminence, not pre-existence and by saying that he is, he is not saying that he is verily God. Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb “to be”.
When somebody phones us, we (in our language) answer, “I am” meaning ‘I am the person you want to speak to’ In a conversation we would mean ‘I am the person you are looking for’ ‘or I am the person you need’. Nobody is going to think we say that we are God.
Jesus became the firstborn because by his dead he entered the gate of the Kingdom and fulfilled the New Covenant with the hope of eternal life for everybody. He became the second Adam. Christ was the result of the above-mentioned word made flesh, not the originator.
He was foreordained in the divine purpose. He was in the Plan of God and was already foreseen before Abraham saw the light. “And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Ge 3:14-15 ASV) The God of peace made it possible to bruise the evil by foreseeing Jesus in His plan of salvation at the early days before Adam and Ave were sent out of the Garden of Eden.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

He that has seen me has seen the Father [also].
“The person who has seen me has seen the Father” (Joh 14:9 GWV)
“And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me.” (Joh 12:45 ASV)
“who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Heb 1:3 ASV)
We also say “when you have seen me, you saw my mother/father”
He, who has looked on me, has looked on the Father. This may be something like the similarities in English: “like father, like son, ” “the apple does not fall far from the tree, ” “the spitting image of, ” “a chip off the old block.”
The things Jesus speaks are not his own, but what his Father told him to say. By the Spirit of God, Jesus received the power to speak and to do miracles. The Words from God are given into Jesus his mind. Thus, when Jesus speaks one is really hearing what the Father thinks – one is seeing or experiencing the Father. Also, the manner in which Jesus treated others gives an indication into the character of God. It is similar to the way others should see Christ in us. As men are in the image of God, so Christ is the perfect image God. [1Corinthians 11:1, 7; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3]

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The pre-position “parà” occurs also in “There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.” (Joh 1:6 AV) When this would include the pre-existence of Christ it also should do for John the Baptist. Also Jeremiah was known before: “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5 ASV) Did he then exist before Abraham (who was called in 1921 BC) or was he there from the beginning of the existence? No, or from 629 to 588 BC it would have been a very very old man writing.
As a choreographer when I wanted to create a work I had a picture of it in my head. I saw the things before me and they existed already before the dancers or the public was going to see it.
God is also a creator, even Thé Creator. God is the great Architect and in His divine Plan, Jesus Christ was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Re 13:8 AV)
The Cornerstone “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,” (1Pe 1:20 AV)
So he was arranged beforehand. This does not mean he was formed beforehand. No, he was thought of beforehand. His position was foreseen to come to an existence at a certain point. And that was when he was placed in the womb of the virgin.
About the glory he had with his Father you could say it also was foreseen. In the Plan of the Great Architect glory was given to the position Jesus was going to take in. From the beginning of the Prophesy by God in the Garden of Eden about the one going to conquer evil, glory was given to that person, who was going to be called Emmanuel, God with us, Jesus the Nazarene, son of Joseph (the artisan or the carpenter) and the virgin Mary. It was the subject of prophetic testimony “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it (the Spirit) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” (1Pe 1:11 AV)
“searching into what [season] –or what type of season–the Messianic inspiration in them was pointing to when giving advance evidence of Messiah’s sufferings, as well as the glories to follow these [sufferings].” (1Pe 1:11 MHM)
“Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke about Him.” (Joh 12:41 MHM)
Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke about Him: Many, including some Trinitarians, wish these words to be applied to Jesus the Nazarene. However, the context has previously discussed the glorification of Gods Name.
“And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed.” (Isa 6:8-10 ASV)
“These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him.” (Joh 12:41 ASV)
John goes on to refer to God’s glory at the end of the paragraph. Therefore, the “Him” is the Father, and not the Son himself.
“And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one;” (Joh 17:22 ASV)
God had given glory to Christ Jesus and as they are one we should be one with Jesus also (= becoming like Jesus =/= being the same person as Jesus) so that we could also receive the glory, which is foreseen for those who want to follow the Lord of Lords Jehovah/Yahweh and the Lord Jesus/Yeshua.

 

[marcusampe]

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

By the works of Christ we can see what God can do and therefore we can glorify God, but also find Jesus glorified by those beautiful actions, miracles and marvellous words. But it is only by the Grace of God that Jesus could do those things.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

My Master and The God: Or, My Lord and my God. Much is made of this exclamation by Doubting Thomas as though his words have some inspired credentials.
God also means higher one, special one.
Thomas does not use God&#8217;s name in vain, for he uses the title of theos, which was in common use during the 1st Century AD, and was applied not only to Caesars and kings, but also demigods and high-ranking magistrates. Also accredited representative of God were referred to as god in the times that the Jew Thomas lived.
But take note of the &#8220;and&#8221; which can also mean that Thomas is referring to two persons; namely at first to his Master Jesus and then to The God of Jesus, the Father.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

&#8220;which he has purchased with his own blood.&#8221; (Ac 20:28 JB2000; a.o.) But nowhere can I find &#8220;God&#8221; But it was also Gods blood like the blood of me is the blood of my father. So Jesus his blood was also the blood of His Father, and this certainly because God had taken care that Jesus was placed on this earth.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

To whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen.
I do not see any problem: Jesus came from the line of the forefathers, Abraham, David and the prophets.
. &#8220;to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.&#8221; (Ro 9:5 RSV) All grace and honour is to God. There is a &#8216;point before God and not written &#8220;Christ the God&#8221;. In other versions where there is no point you find indication that it could be Christ who stands above everyone/everything &#8220;and therefore all praise and honour should go to God&#8221; (B)
The apostle Paul enumerates the spiritual privileges of Israel: the Sonship, the glory (Shekinah glory), the covenants, the Law, the temple worship, the promises, the patriarchs, and the Messiah himself of Jewish lineage.
&#8220;God who is exalted above everything, be blessed and for ever, Amen.&#8221; (Wil 78) It means that it be so that God shall be exalted above everything and that He be blessed.
&#8220;Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.&#8221; (Ro 9:5 ASV) gives to know that it is thanks to God that we are blessed with the presence of Jesus the Christ, the Messiah. The apostle concludes with a thankful ascription of praise to God for all that He has done for Israel.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God:

It clearly says that Jesus is the image or a likeness, a representation of or an appearance that which closely resembles God. This means that he is like Him but does not mean that he is Him. In Co 1:15 it even mentions that we cannot see God, because he is invisible, while Jesus we can see.

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

&#8220;For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fullness dwell;&#8221; (Col 1:19 ASV)
In him (Jesus Christ) God wanted to live in all His fullness. (Col 1:19; Wil78)
The indwelling of the embodiment of complete divinity: That is, &#8220;there dwells in Christ perfect godhood.&#8221;
&#8220;Yet it is in him that God gives a full and complete expression of himself (within the physical limits that he set in Christ himself).&#8221; (PME: ) The Greek is THEOTETOS [Strong&#8217;s Exhaustive Concordance-2320-, divinity, godhead].
Paul means &#8211; not Christ &#8220;in the days of his flesh&#8221; &#8211; but presently in his glorified state. When on earth he was &#8220;made less than (a) god.&#8221; [Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:5-10]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]But people have to think of how did people express themselves at that time and what did they mean when they said something.
As I said did they not mean the same thing when we say, "my father and I are the same" that 'I think the same as my father'.
Or when I say at the phone "I am" that I mean "It is my who you are (trying) to call/to speak" or in a general conversation "It is me who you are looking for" / " "It is me who you need". It also can mean 'I am the one" or with the accent on I "I am the only one" [not meaning I am the Only one (which means something totally different)][/SIZE]

What we got here is a failure to communicate. A copy/paste from some writing, or other, about the H.S., most of which has nothing to do with my post. Once again trying to force your 20th-21st century idioms back onto the 1st century text/church. See my comment to 2dl above, about expertise and credentials in Biblical languages. If you, and many others here, had gone through the discipline of study, been peer reviewed by knowledgeable scholars in the field, have published recognized exegetical, grammatical works, etc., then your opinion might have some weight. Otherwise, your argument is not much different than LDS, JW, OP, SDA, WWCG, kristadelfian MJ, etc.

[SIZE="-1"]where is this written in the Holy Scriptures?

The same place as your conclusions, below, NOT specifically stated in any verse.

[SIZE="-1"]Naturally the Force of God, His Speaking and Thinking can be aware of something, or feel and speak. It is part of God Himself but not another person. When the Spirit would be a God then you would have a second God next to the Father, though the Bible is very clear that we may only have One God and not many gods.
[/SIZE]

Ignores my post. Can your "force," i.e. spirit, "Speak and Think can be aware of something, or feel and speak?"

[SIZE="-1"] But perhaps you should think more about why they [the JWs] say that. Because I think they are right about that.[/SIZE]

Of course you do, while ignoring the bulk of my post. I would be more inclined to believe what you say if you, or any other group, could show me credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any organized religious body which believed and practiced essentially as you do between 90 AD, when the N.T. was completed and the mid 19th century, and later, when the false beliefs first began to be taught.

[SIZE="-1"]It is the mind of God therefore it can do everything god wants it to do because He has full control over His mind. What we cannot say about ourselves[/SIZE].

We were not discussing the mind of God, but the Holy Spirit. Focus, please?

[SIZE="-1"]
It is a pity that I cannot give you the links to the websites where you can find more information and biblical quotes on the attribute of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. But when you 'gooogle' it you shall be able to find the answers.[/SIZE]

Why should I link to anything, when you have ignored most of what I posted?

[SIZE="-1"]You can find clarifications, but nowhere that it is a person next to the other person, which we call our Father.[/SIZE]

Again ignoring what I said, and basically saying, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" When Jesus was speaking, and the N.T. writers wrote, of the Holy Spirit having a mind, will, and self, etc., at different times and places, without their audience having the completed, compiled N.T. in their hands what would they have understood? Certainly not the organized doctrines of religious groups which did not exist until 2000 years +/- later.

1. God -Acts 5:3-4 = “...to lie to the Holy Spirit, ...thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Ac 5:3-4 ASV) [SIZE="-1"]= logical when you lie against the Spirit that is to God because the Spirit is the thinking and therefore also the being of God. But Not an other person. [Ignores the 72 +/- attributes listed!]

The Holy Spirit rested upon Peter and the apostles as a divine pressure and authority. [Not stated in scripture!] Though the falsehood was committed against the apostles, since they possessed God’s Spirit, it was a sin against it.[/SIZE][The scripture says nothing about lying to the apostles!]
“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1Co 2:16 ASV)

The Jews at Jerusalem did NOT have the letter to Corinth written years later to help them apply your 2000 years +/- later Theology to what the disciples said.

For “Who has known the Mind of YHWH?" / For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah " [SIZE="-1"]Paul quotes Isaiah 40:13 from the Jewish Greek Septuagint of the third Century BCE. The LXX uses TIS EGNO NOUN KYRIOU. The Hebrew Text does not use “mind” [NOUN] but “of the Spirit.” Thus, Paul understands the “Spirit” to be “the Mind” of God. In both the LXX and the Greek text of Paul there is no article before KYRIOU suggesting the Tetragram could well have been in the original[/SIZE].

All well and good but does NOT address Rom 8:27 which I quoted. You have not shown how chapter 11 would modify chapter 8.

"Who will instruct Him?” [Isaiah 40:13 LXX] [SIZE="-1"]However, Christ’s mind we do possess!" / But we do have the mind of Christ." Or, PME: we who are spiritual have the same thoughts of Christ; MOF: our thoughts are Christ’s thoughts. [Note: if Jesus Christ was, in fact, Jehovah it is not logical that one could have the mind of one and not the other.] Consistent with the previous phrase this could all read: “Who has known the Spirit of YHWH?… But, we do have the Spirit of Christ.” In 1Corinthians 1:10 Paul counselled to have the “same mind” and here we now know what “mind” this is. Compare Romans 15:5, Philippians 2:5, 1Peter 4:1. [/SIZE]

Once again trying to force your Theology back onto the text. The church at Rome did NOT have the complete, compiled N.T. including Philippians 2:5, 1Peter 4:1, 1Corinthians 1:10. Therefore the simplest understanding for them would have been that the Holy Spirit had a mind and self distinct from the father.

2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18: “But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.” (2Co 3:18 ASV)

“And so all of us, with faces unveiled, continue to reflect like mirrors YHWH’s glory –continually transformed into the very same image, from glory unto glory–even from a Supreme Being who is Pneuma.” (2Co 3:18 MHM)

[SIZE="-1"]In a certain way is God a spirit. He is no human. You cannot see Him.[/SIZE]
“For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:” (Ro 1:20 ASV) an invisible being/ creature (Wil) For the invisible things of him (AKJV, AV) those things of God which the eye is unable to see (BBE) his invisible qualities – both his eternal power and his divine nature – have been clearly seen, (CJB) etc

[SIZE="-1"] This spiritual being which is a supreme being has and is Spirit. But when you speak of the Holy Spirit you speak about the thinking of this spiritual being. The Force of God.[/SIZE]

3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10: “However, by means of the Pneuma, The God has revealed [this secret Mystery] to us. For the Pneuma searches everything, including the depths of The God.” (1Co 2:10 MHM)

Here it is clearly talking about this Force. It is the thinking who or which considers.

None of these vss. address my post. And once again using various vss. from different places, times and contexts to build your Theology and impose it on vss. where it could not have applied since letters written to one church at a later time could NOT have influenced the understanding of a church in a different city and country at an earlier time.

4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16:“Are you not aware that you are God’s Divine Habitat, and that the Pneuma of The God dwells in all of you?” (1Co 3:16 MHM)

[SIZE="-1"]God can live in us by His own power. We can carry this thinking of God in our minds. It is not a person that shall run around in our body or in our brains.[/SIZE]

5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26: “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:” (Joh 15:26 ASV)
the Helper, the Truthful Spirit.

[SIZE="-1"]Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to bear witness of the Saviour. [/SIZE]

True but irrelevant to my post.

[SIZE="-1"]This promise was made by our Lord to His disciples before His ascension: [/SIZE]"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:47-49).

[SIZE="-1"]These words were fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost. He began a work then that He now continues—indwelling believers and empowering them to witness as they give Him complete control of their lives. It is Gods force that encountered those who wanted to believe in God and in the resurrection of His Holy Son.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="-1"]This is confirmed by[/SIZE] (#Ac 1:8): "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." It was or is the Power of God who gave them the strength and which can give us power.

[SIZE="-1"]The disciples no longer hesitated to witness after the Day of Pentecost. We read in[/SIZE] (#Ac 5:32): "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
[SIZE="-1"]
God had given them the Power; he had not given them a person to accompany them.[/SIZE]

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (#Lu 24:49).

All correct but does NOT address my post in any way.

6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14: “how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Heb 9:14 ASV)
[SIZE="-1"]The Greek is DIA PNEUMATOS AIONIOU, “through [a] pneuma aionion.” Whether the Spirit here refers to an everlasting attitude or disposition [mental inclination] on the part of Christ, or alludes to God’s Spirit is one of personal interpretation. You can also take it that by the Force of God, by the working of the Holy and eternal Spirit Christ got his messages from God and got to know what God wanted from him.[/SIZE]

Copied from some writing, or other, on the H.S., but does not address my post.

[SIZE="-1"]Please ‘google’ “Attributes of God”[/SIZE]

Once again, why? You have not addressed my post in any meaningful way.

[SIZE="-1"]Like you say it are symbols: that which by custom or convention represents something else. Because you get a personification in a ‘Dove’ it does not mean that the Spirit is neither person nor an animal (a dove) either when it is spoken of as being forces as the wind and fire does not make it a person.[/SIZE]

Ignores the fact that all of the symbols for the H.S. were in distinction of the father and son. And once again how did the initial audience understand what they saw or heard, since they did not have the complete, compiled N.T. from which to anachronistically construct your 20th-21st century doctrines?

Naturally when you have a force there can be an action or there can be a result of the force working into something or some one. The points you mention confirms more that the Spirit is a Force than it can proof that it is a person.

Ignores the bulk of my post, and the points I made, and merely repeats your assumptions/presuppositions. Anybody can say "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" [/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]You can try to express the nature of God but is it not easier just to use the words of the Bible? Would you not think that if God wanted us to recognise the Trinity He would have told us so in His given Word to us? When it is so important, God would have made it sure that we could notice it.
[/SIZE]

The upsurge of heretical movements in the early years of the church, such as Montanism, Arianism, Patripassianism, Valentinism, etc, made it necessary to find words the heretics could not twist and distort.

[SIZE="-1"]You say it yourself that there is only one God, who is neither the Son nor the Spirit. So I do not see the problem?

Deliberately misrepresents what I said.

[SIZE="-1"]This Scripture passage nowhere says that Jesus is God. My brother calls also Emmanuel or Immanuel, but that does not mean he is God nor that he is god (two different things)[/SIZE]

Irrelevant argumentation. Every time this vs. is mentioned out come the automatic replies, "This that or the other person, named their son "Immanuel" that proves that when God named his son "Immanuel" it doesn't mean anything." Ignores the fact that finite, imperfect men have no power to make their sons be or become anything, no matter what high sounding Theophoric name they use. OTOH God says what he means and means what the says. For example, when God changed Abram's name, he actually, historically became the father of a multitude, the meaning of the new name God gave him, Abraham.

The name shall be called =/= he is. People can say that somebody is some one, but therefore he is not that what is said about him. Christ also can be a mighty god but is not then God. For example for many Elvis Presley is god, and they even have churches for him, but that does not make him God. (Today a lot of footballers, artists and actors are called god, but I am sure most of the people who call them god would not consider them God / with the few exceptions)

Totally irrelevant. Examples from finite, imperfect, drug and alcohol abusing, carousing, adulterous, pedophilic, etc. humans mean abso-diddly squat when speaking of God.

[SIZE="-1"]Christ cannot be “very God”. Take those few points in consideration: do you believe Jesus Christ was being tempted? Well God can not be tempted with evil (James 1:13)[/SIZE]

The Israelites tempted God in the wilderness.

[SIZE="-1"]Non Trinitarians who believe in Christ Jesus as their Messiah fully believe that this man died for our sins. This gives more value to him than those who think he is God, because then he would have done as if he died. He would have faked it all. We also are very aware that God can not die and has been there from the beginning and shall ever be. (1 Timothy 6:16; Psalm 90:2)[/SIZE]

Are anti-Trinitarians aware of the Psalm which says,

JPS Psa 49:7-9
(7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.​

Note vs. 9, "No man can by any means redeem his brother . . . that he should still live alway[forever]."

[SIZE="-1"]Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us,” and, “God has turned his attention to his people.” (NWT) “and, God has given thought to his people.” (BBE) “God has come to help his people.”” (Cjb) "God has taken care of his people." (GWV) “Everybody present was awe-struck and they praised God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us and God has turned his face towards his people."” (PHIL) “Others said, "God has not forgotten His People."” (WEY) saying—‘A great prophet hath risen among us,’ and—‘God did look upon His people.’” (YLT)
In other translations: “God looked down at His people” (Wil; HSVNTPS) God looked after His people (NBG51) God cared about his people (NBV) God had looked in grace about His people. (AlbNT) God came to help His people (BFC) god paid attention for His people ((Lei); God looks after His community /ecclesia (N; NBE) God looked mercifully down at His people (WV78) God took care / attended to (ZB31)
In more paraphrased or not literal translations: ‘Today we have seen what God can do” (B; Life); god took care of His people (GNB)
Logic when Jesus was placed in the womb of Mary it was by the visitation of God that Mary became pregnant. God took care of the people by taking care that there came a person on this earth who could save all. By the Force (read Spirit) of God Jesus could be born.[/SIZE]

Quoting versions, especially one scholar versions, without the underlying scholarship, is pretty much meaningless. Here is the original Greek, Wescott Hort text, the NET scholarship.

Luk 7:16 &#949;&#955;&#945;&#946;&#949;&#957; G2983(5627) &#948;&#949; G1161[AND SEIZED] &#966;&#959;&#946;&#959;&#962; G5401[FEAR] &#945;&#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962; G537[ALL,] &#954;&#945;&#953; G2532[AND] &#949;&#948;&#959;&#958;&#945;&#950;&#959;&#957; G1392(5707) &#964;&#959;&#957; G3588[THEY GLORIFIED] &#952;&#949;&#959;&#957; G2316[GOD,] &#955;&#949;&#947;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; G3004(5723) &#959;&#964;&#953; G3754[SAYING,] &#960;&#961;&#959;&#966;&#951;&#964;&#951;&#962; G4396[A PROPHET] &#956;&#949;&#947;&#945;&#962; G3173[GREAT] &#949;&#947;&#951;&#947;&#949;&#961;&#964;&#945;&#953; G1453(5769)[HAS RISEN UP] &#949;&#957; G1722[AMONGST] &#951;&#956;&#953;&#957; G2254[US;] &#954;&#945;&#953; G2532 &#959;&#964;&#953; G3754[AND] &#949;&#960;&#949;&#963;&#954;&#949;&#968;&#945;&#964;&#959; G1980(5662) &#959; G3588[HAS VISITED] &#952;&#949;&#959;&#962; G2316 &#964;&#959;&#957; G3588[GOD] &#955;&#945;&#959;&#957; G2992 &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; G846[HIS PEOPLE.]

Net Luke 7:16 Fear56 seized them all, and they began to glorify57 God, saying, “A great prophet58 has appeared59 among us!” and “God has come to help[sup]60[/sup] his people!”

Translation notes 60tn Grk “visited,” but this conveys a different impression to a modern reader. L&N 85.11 renders the verb, “to be present, with the implication of concern – ‘to be present to help, to be on hand to aid.’ … ‘God has come to help his people’ Lk 7:16.” The language recalls Luke 1:68, 78.​

“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Diaglot) In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)
[SIZE="-1"]In other places there has been already debated a lot on this. (So look there please)
Here happens the same as you do with the Spirit. You take the Logos as a personality, which it is not. It was the Logos or Gods word which was there with God from the beginning as was His Spirit. by which the Word could only be spoken. By the breath of God the Words came out of His mouth and came down to us. By the Spirit (the Force of God) it was made possible that the Will of God became known to the humans who then could receive Gods Words by the prophets, who could write it down because they received Gods Spirit, which did not mean that a little human became running in their mind, dictating what was in Gods mind.[/SIZE]

I would prefer scholarly evidence rather than your unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. See my post earlier in this thread quoting every early church father who quoted this verse Here!
That is called historical evidence!

[SIZE="-1"]It was because God spoke, not Jesus, that all things where created. “By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” (Ps 33:6 ASV) “For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.” (Ps 33:9 ASV)

“He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.” (Joh 1:10 ASV)
Because of the Light Jesus it is made possible that the world becomes. Only by Christ his offer it became possible that anything could stay alive. Without Jesus we would be nowhere and the world would be lost. “Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.” (1Co 8:6 ASV) The problem with the world is that it did not know Jesus and today there are still a lot of people who do not recognise the reasons of Jesus his being.[/SIZE]

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Heb 1:8-10
(8) But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
(9) You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
(10) And, "You, Lord, [the Son, vs. 8] laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;​

[/SIZE]

 

[2ducklow]

(Rotherham) Hebrews 1:8 but, as to the Son,--Thy throne, O God, is unto times age-abiding, and--A sceptre of equity, is the sceptre of his kingdom,

p46, aleph, and b all read his kingdom, which means it has to be translated as 'thy throne is god."

Rotherham) Colossians 1:16 Because, in him, were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones or lordships or principalities or authorities,--they all, through him and for him, have been created,

col. 1.16 is a popular one for changing the word of god from in him to by him. the greek word is en and doesn't mean by, translators just change it to support their doctrine, preposistions are an easy way for translators to insert their doctrine in the bible, they change preposistions willy nilly.

Marcus, he's rakin you over the coals with that force thing. it's a hard thing to defend in light of all the scripture identifying personal qualities to the holy spirit, better, IMO, to stick with the holy spirit being personified, that way there is no force attack available.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]The living word of God is the action of the Spirit and active agent in effecting the new birth (Hebrews 4:12; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23) From the moment Jesus became flesh, or being a human substance, then he became the “Word” or the solemnisation of the Plan of God. Jesus became the spokesman of God. He is the only one justified to speak the Words of His Father. We only can quote the Word of God by getting it out of The Holy Scriptures, the Books given to us. Jesus received Gods Word directly from the Spirit.[/SIZE]

Still misusing widely separate vss. jamming them together without regard for different authors, times, places and context, trying to prove your assumptions/presuppositions.

[SIZE="-1"]No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. (NWT) in many translation “the only begotten son” who you let you know directly about whom is being spoken. “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” (Joh 1:18 AKJV)
Nobody has seen God, but many saw Christ. The Son “declared” the Father by the words he received from the Spirit and therefore could speak. Jesus by denouncing the works of God gave us the chance to get to know his Father.

The oldest most reliable manuscripts read "monogenes theos." the unique God. See e.g. Robertson, Vincent, NET, etc.

[SIZE="-1"]Like I said before when we say “I am my father” or “my father and I are one” then it means that we are of the same thinking. Or that we have the same character. Or it could also mean that I have the same position or that I am equal with my father. That is also what happened with the Jews who misunderstood Jesus, thinking he was claiming to be equal with God (vs 33) You are making the same mistake. The oneness referred to, is not a declaration by Jesus that he is “very God”, but rather unity of purpose.
Remember that Jesus also gave us the task to be one with him and His Father. (John 17:11,21) Becoming like Christ would not mean that we become as God.
Jesus should also become one in us and God in Christ. When Jesus is God he would not have to ask God to come in Him because He would already be in him.[/SIZE]

What the state of the righteous may or may not be in the resurrection proves nothing about the then and there unity of the father and the son.

Right, when Thomas called Jesus "the Lord of me and the God of me," he actually meant the unity of purpose. Your analogies from modern language and idioms are irrelevant.

[SIZE="-1"]Jesus recognises the fact that he is not equal with his Father. He let us know that without his Father he is or can do really ‘nothing’. “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.” (Joh 5:19 ASV)
Jesus also made it clear that he did go to a place where His Father was, at who’s side he was going to sit at the right hand. “ I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.” (Joh 14:28 ASV) “But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,” (Ac 7:55 ASV)
“but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Heb 10:12 ASV) If you are one and the same person you can not sit next to yourself. (Or you should split you in half)[/SIZE]

Read Philippians 2:6-11, about Jesus humbling himself. I'm pretty sure I included it in my list. And I did that for the specific purpose that you might review ALL the vss. at the same time. [/SIZE]