John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

[heavensprings]

The concordant literal version, I have never heard of that one. Now that I know I will have to do more research on that version. It isn't even inclusive online where my multi version study is done. Multi-Source Bible Dictionary

I did check into this version I read how it came about in 1909, and is run by a non denominational non profit organization, who claimes not to be a church. I read much in the way of negative reviews during this search as well, which doesn't lead me to want to trust it.

Most of the truths I know have been revealed to me by God's Holy Spirit, I wasn't aware that there were seven of them either except for the seven written of in Revelation, each one representing one of the seven churches also spoken of in Revelation only.

I do believe in the trinity, for it has been revealed to me by GOD. Thus, I will continue to believe what HE tells me, until/unless HE tells me otherwise.

That's fair enough. I'm not really into the Trinity thing in a big way anyway..

The Concordant is a new version, and has been translated straight from the Greek, and most of the other Literal versions say more or less the same thing. The NASB is a very well known and respected version within Christiandom and says the same as the CLV anyway. I don't rely on the KJV as there are too many mistranslations within it.. over 2000 they say. Haven't really checked it out for myself except when comparing between the versions in e-sword it becomes apparent that it doesn't always say the same thing as the others.

 

[2ducklow]

[never mind

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.

This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."

Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).

Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.[/SIZE]

Do you think that posting in a huge font size somehow makes an otherwise false argument, true?

The problem with your argument is that the blind were outcasts of society forced to live outside the cities, much like lepers. They were considered to be sinners from birth. Since they were considered unclean they would never have been in the temple or a synagogue and would never have heard Torah. The blind mans understanding would have been the same as any foreigner. "Ego eimi" would have been a common expression to him. The Jewish leaders understood this.

Your argument fails again with Paul. He did NOT say "ego eimi", he only said "eimi."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]This is taken from the Concordant Literal Version...
[/SIZE]
1Jn 5:7 seeing that three there are that are testifying,
1Jn 5:8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."
1Jn 5:9 If we are obtaining the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has testified concerning His Son."
[SIZE="-1"]
Which reads a bit different to the KJV.

This following is from the NASB and seems to show that Christ is the water and the blood. It is not speaking of the three being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but of Christ being two.. the water and the blood, and then the Holy Spirit. [/SIZE]

1Jn 5:6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.

[size=-1]I do not believe in a Trinity of three separate persons, but in a unity of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of the Father and Christ who proceeds from the Father... and the seven spirits of God... and whatever else He is that He has not deemed it necessary to share with us. But as to three 'separate persons'.. no.[/size]

Here is an early church father quoting 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV in the year 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664
​

 

[2ducklow]

Here is an early church father quoting 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV in the year 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.
​

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
​

interesting. you believe john1.18 says 'only begotten god' because a few early manuscripts say only begotten god, but most all the later ones say 'only begotten son". totally rejecting all other evidence except early greek manuscripts. yet here you reject all manuscripts in favor of early writings by some christians. only a few very late date manuyscirpts say these three are one. double standard. you reject non scriptural evidence for john 1.18, but accept it for 1 john 5.7.

be sure and watch the paint dry now.

 

[2ducklow]

Do you think that posting in a huge font size somehow makes an otherwise false argument, true?

The problem with your argument is that the blind were outcasts of society forced to live outside the cities, much like lepers. They were considered to be sinners from birth. Since they were considered unclean they would never have been in the temple or a synagogue and would never have heard Torah. The blind mans understanding would have been the same as any foreigner. "Ego eimi" would have been a common expression to him. The Jewish leaders understood this.

Your argument fails again with Paul. He did NOT say "ego eimi", he only said "eimi."

(Greek NT - (wh) w/ Grammar tags) Acts 26:29 o <3588> {T-NSM} de <1161> {CONJ} pauloV <3972> {N-NSM} euxaimhn <2172> (5665) {V-ADO-1S} an <302> {PRT} tw <3588> {T-DSM} qew <2316> {N-DSM} kai <2532> {CONJ} en <1722> {PREP} oligw <3641> {A-DSN} kai <2532> {CONJ} en <1722> {PREP} megalw <3173> {A-DSM} ou <3756> {PRT -N} monon <3440> {ADV} se <4571> {P-2AS} alla <235> {CONJ} kai <2532> {CONJ} pantaV <3956> {A-APM} touV <3588> {T-APM} akouontaV <191> (5723) {V-PAP-APM} mou <3450> {P-1GS} shmeron <4594> {ADV} genesqai <1096> (5635) {V-2ADN} toioutouV <5108> {D-APM} opoioV <3697> {A-NSN} kai <2532> {CONJ} egw <1473> {P-1NS} eimi <1510> (5748) {V-PXI-1S} parektoV <3924> {ADV} twn <3588> {T-GPM} desmwn <1199> {N-GPM} toutwn <5130> {D-GPM}

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

this is too easy. paint dry yet?

 

[Der Alte]

Here is an early church father quoting 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV in the year 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664
​

[SIZE="-1"]interesting. you believe john1.18 says 'only begotten god' because a few early manuscripts say only begotten god, but most all the later ones say 'only begotten son". totally rejecting all other evidence except early greek manuscripts. yet here you reject all manuscripts in favor of early writings by some christians. only a few very late date manuyscirpts say these three are one. double standard. you reject non scriptural evidence for john 1.18, but accept it for 1 john 5.7.

be sure and watch the paint dry now.[/SIZE]

How exactly do you think this post addresses anything I said? Cyprian was quoting scripture, "again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." There was at least one manuscript in existence in 250 AD which read, as Cyprian quoted. You got any mss. earlier than that? Nah! Didn't think so.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

this is too easy. paint dry yet?[/SIZE]

What does Gen 1;1 have to do with anything? You are right it is too easy, some mss. do not have "ego" only "eimi." Even if we concede "ego eimi" although it is questionable, the argument still fails. In Paul's statement there is a predicate, "all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, [a Christian, vs, 28] except these bonds." When Jesus said "ego eimi," John 8:58, there was no predicate.

 

[2ducklow]

What does Gen 1;1 have to do with anything? You are right it is too easy, some mss. do not have "ego" only "eimi." Even if we concede "ego eimi" although it is questionable, the argument still fails. In Paul's statement there is a predicate, "all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, [a Christian, vs, 28] except these bonds." When Jesus said "ego eimi," John 8:58, there was no predicate.

oh wow , you responded. guess the paint finally dired. \
so what you're saying is that unless someone says "I am before he was" they are not caliming to be god. Only people who say "I am before he was" are claiming to be god. And you base that upon what scripture? where did god say "I am before he was" anywhere in the bible?

but all that hinges on your false assumption that there is no predicate in 'before abraham was, I am",. the predicate nominal of I am is "before abraham was". so your arguement falls apart on two grounds.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]oh wow , you responded. guess the paint finally dired. \
so what you're saying is that unless someone says "I am before he was" they are not caliming to be god. Only people who say "I am before he was" are claiming to be god. And you base that upon what scripture? where did god say "I am before he was" anywhere in the bible?[/SIZE]

Here is what I said again. Since you obviously cannot understand it. Please tell me exactly what you can't understand and I will write it in simpler language.

What does Gen 1;1 have to do with anything? You are right it is too easy, some mss. do not have "ego" only "eimi." Even if we concede "ego eimi" although it is questionable, the argument still fails. In Paul's statement there is a predicate, "all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, [a Christian, vs, 28] except these bonds." When Jesus said "ego eimi," John 8:58, there was no predicate.​

 

[2ducklow]

Here is what I said again. Since you obviously cannot understand it. Please tell me exactly what you can't understand and I will write it in simpler language.

What does Gen 1;1 have to do with anything? You are right it is too easy, some mss. do not have "ego" only "eimi." Even if we concede "ego eimi" although it is questionable, the argument still fails. In Paul's statement there is a predicate, "all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, [a Christian, vs, 28] except these bonds." When Jesus said "ego eimi," John 8:58, there was no predicate.
​

you don't have to write it too simple, i got a 6th grade edjucation. i can keep up with ya.
like I said, there was a predicate for ego eimi in john 8.58. the predicate is "before abraham was. so your arguement has no validity. do you need me to say it slower a 3rd time?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]you don't have to write it too simple, i got a 6th grade edjucation. i can keep up with ya.
like I said, there was a predicate for ego eimi in john 8.58. the predicate is "before abraham was. so your arguement has no validity.[/SIZE]

Please identify the predicate nominative, for "I Am" in "before Abraham was I Am?"

Predicate Nominatives:

A predicate nominative is a noun (naming word) or a pronoun (a word used in place of a noun) that is the same as the subject of the sentence. It explains or identifies something about the subject.​

There is no pronoun and the only noun is Abraham.

 

[marcusampe]

Here is an early church father quoting 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV in the year 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.”
​

In many languages people say they are one with this one or that one. When we say "he is his father", we never are going to think he is actualy and really his father. What people mean by saying of a baby "that is his mother" is that the baby they have in front of them looks like his mother or has the atributes of the mother. When a person says "he is really his father" that does not mean that the son is really that father, perhaps he is not even a lookalike, but he has characterial elements wich are similar as those of his father.

The Spirit being the Force of God is naturally of the same character as the Father because it is part of God Himself. It is His thinking, His action.
Jesus being placed by the Force of God in the womb of Mary (Maria, Myriam) is thereof part of the Father. His DNA coming from God. But he is a mixture of God and a human being (the virgin Mary), so perhaps divine and a godly person (a god) but not God.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]In many languages people say they are one with this one or that one. When we say "he is his father", we never are going to think he is actualy and really his father. What people mean by saying of a baby "that is his mother" is that the baby they have in front of them looks like his mother or has the atributes of the mother. When a person says "he is really his father" that does not mean that the son is really that father, perhaps he is not even a lookalike, but he has characterial elements wich are similar as those of his father.[/SIZE]

Modern day figures of speech are largely irrelevant when translating and interpreting 1st century Koiné Greek.

[SIZE="-1"]The Spirit being the Force of God is naturally of the same character as the Father because it is part of God Himself. It is His thinking, His action.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3​

[/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]Jesus being placed by the Force of God in the womb of Mary (Maria, Myriam) is thereof part of the Father. His DNA coming from God. But he is a mixture of God and a human being (the virgin Mary), so perhaps divine and a godly person (a god) but not God.[/SIZE]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who,” Hypostatic union,," and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here are scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

 

[Der Alte]

Here are several passages from the OT which refer to [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH] paired with verses in the NT which apply [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]/YHWH] to Jesus.

Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ps 8:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.>> O LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

N.T. reference.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Ps 68:18 You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside among them, O Jah God." ("Jah" is an abbreviated form of the name Jehovah.)

N.T. reference.
Ephesians 4:7-10: "Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: 'When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.' Now the expression 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fulness to all things."

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; [/size]] of hosts.

N.T. reference.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, [John] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways;

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

N.T. reference.
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]]: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him [the Lord Jesus vs. 9] shall not be ashamed.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] shall call.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus vs. 9] shall be saved.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Isa 45:23 I [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size] vs. 21, 24] have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

N.T. reference.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, [Christ, vs. 10] every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:for in these things I delight, saith the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] .

N.T. reference.
1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [Christ, vs. 30]
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

N.T. reference.
2 Tim 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Ps 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

N.T. reference.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ps 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Ps 45:6 ¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;[/size]] /Yeshuah] shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, [Jesus/[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;[/size]] /Yeshua, vss. 2, 5, 8, 9] in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Zech 12:10 And I [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

N.T. reference.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Jer 17:10 I the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

N.T. reference.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD [[SIZE=+1]&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;[/size]] hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation [[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;[/size]/Yeshuah] cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

N.T. reference.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, (Isa 40:10, 62:11), to give every man according as his work (Ps 62:12, 34:8) shall be.
13 I [Jesus/[size=+1]&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;[/size]/Yeshua] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12)
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. . .
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

N.T. reference.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Is 6:1)​

[/SIZE]

 

[NatalieJan777]

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

​

​

​

Thank you for this listing
​

 

[2ducklow]

Please identify the predicate nominative, for "I Am" in "before Abraham was I Am?"

Predicate Nominatives:
​

A predicate nominative is a noun (naming word) or a pronoun (a word used in place of a noun) that is the same as the subject of the sentence. It explains or identifies something about the subject.
​

There is no pronoun and the only noun is Abraham.

are you changing your requiement from needing a predicate to a specific kind of predicate, in order for john 8.58 to not mean that Jesus is god? 'before abraham was" is not a predicate nominative, but it is a predicate. Am is a coupla or linking verb. Coupla is just another word for linking verb. Am links or couples I with "before abraham was" > " Before abraham was" is the predicate. Therefore your argument that a predicate is need in john 8.48 is false because there is one. It is "before abraham was." AS to what kind of predicate "before Abraham was" is , I dunno. Ask a grammatician.

 

[2ducklow]

never mind

 

[2ducklow]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore the words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who,” Hypostatic union,," and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

it's not the nature of god that you are describing with your trinity words, it is your feeble attempt to explain how 3 gods are one god. you just call that the nature of god.