Corporal Punishment

[quatona]

CPS doesn't care how you personally categorize abuse.

And there you have the reason why people do not necessarily report what they consider abuse.

 

[BlackSabb]

Just for the record, I believe that little swats across the backside with your hand is perfectly fine for toddlers and very young chidren. When they are that young, they cannot be reasoned with and you need to apply some physical discipline when nothing else is working.

However, when children are of the age of understanding, I believe that hitting is an extremely poor option. There are a ton of ways to correct wayward children without resorting to hitting. Make them spend their weekend working instead of playing, that'll teach them real quick.

I'm especially against the obscenities that is corporal punishment in schools, which surprisingly hasn't been touched on at all in this thread. That is totally inhuman and is nothing but plain abuse-period. I hardly ever got hit but I grew up despising Christian schools because of the barbaric practices that were enforced. I'll still never forget watching some kid get 6 hits of the strap across his hand and then burst out in throbbing tears.

And yet you'll find heaps of so called Christians still wishing for the good old days of hitting, slapping, belting, paddling, strapping and caning.

I personally think a poor parent hits older children and doesn't know any other way of behaviour modification.

 

[Chajara]

I hardly ever got hit but I grew up despising Christian schools because of the barbaric practices that were enforced. I'll still never forget watching some kid get 6 hits of the strap across his hand and then burst out in throbbing tears.

And yet you'll find heaps of so called Christians still wishing for the good old days of hitting, slapping, belting, paddling, strapping and caning.

I don't understand how anyone could allow someone else to hit their child. My parents signed forms when I went to private school stating that they were allowed to use corporal punishment as they saw fit, and I remember being stunned that they'd allow someone to hit me with a paddle. Their reasoning was "Well we had to sign it or they wouldn't let you go to that school!" Personally, if I ever saw someone slap a kid multiple times until he started sobbing uncontrollably I'd fly into a murderous rage. If they did it to my kid.. I honestly don't even know what I'd do. Probably end up in jail.

I always got so sad when I'd be at my old job listening to some dumb broad brag about how her 2 year old was choking his elmo doll and screaming the F word left and right so he "Got him a whoopin'." Where the hell did he learn that sort of thing in the first place? She'd tell this story often, and always treated it like it was something to be laughed at.

Some people just shouldn't have kids.

 

[ArgentBear]

I have taught my boys that it is wrong to inflict violence on another person and it is wrong to bully those who are smaller and weaker than them. If I turned around and engaged in corporal punishment I would be nothing but a hypocrite

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I have taught my boys that it is wrong to inflict violence on another person and it is wrong to bully those who are smaller and weaker than them. If I turned around and engaged in corporal punishment I would be nothing but a hypocrite

Corporal punishment isn't bullying, though, and if you explained the reasoning behind discipline and corporal punishment, your kids would understand that.

I've seen parents do more damage than a spanking ever could simply by the words they use. And that goes on both sides of the spectrum.

 

[BlackSabb]

Corporal punishment isn't bullying, though......

Corporal punishment on an older child of understanding is nothing but pure violence, torture and abuse-period. This is a real dark ages mentality. A good parent can control their children without resorting to primal instincts.

The way you carry on about it, I'm gathering you (ironically enough) weren't really subject to it. I would love to see if you would still be advocating it if you got 6 of the best of the strap or cane.

I seriously doubt it. You most probably got nothing more than little swats of the hand as a toddler and now you're all grown up all gun ho about beating kids. That's real brave of you!

I bet if I posted a youtube video of some kid getting caned, you couldn't even stomach to watch it. Yet you advocate it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Corporal punishment on an older child of understanding is nothing but pure violence, torture and abuse-period. This is a real dark ages mentality. A good parent can control their children without resorting to primal instincts.

I guess you and I need to talk about what you mean by "older child".

The way you carry on about it, I'm gathering you (ironically enough) weren't really subject to it. I would love to see if you would still be advocating it if you got 6 of the best of the strap or cane.

The way I carry on? Is that what having an opinion is called these days? I got spanked with a belt and wooden spoon. Rarely was the hand used. And no, I still don't think it was abuse. Did you know me as a child? No. Did you know my parents? No. So stop making judgments about them or me, as none of us have made judgments about you.

I seriously doubt it. You most probably got nothing more than little swats of the hand as a toddler and now you're all grown up all gun ho about beating kids. That's real brave of you!

You seriously need to reread my posts. When you have, come back and spout this non-sense and then I'll deal with it.

I bet if I posted a youtube video of some kid getting caned, you couldn't even stomach to watch it. Yet you advocate it.

Please, do show me where I've said it's okay to cane a child...(psst...you can't because I haven't.)

Again, like I said, instead of reading into the last post I made, read ALL the posts I have made so that maybe you will make sense when you talk about what I advocate and what I am gung ho about.

Thanks.

 

[quatona]

Corporal punishment isn't bullying, though,

I think it is exactly that.

and if you explained the reasoning behind discipline and corporal punishment, your kids would understand that.

So far you haven´t even succeeded in explaining the reason behind it to me and others here - but then again you don´t have the means of corporate punishment to "convince" us.

I've seen parents do more damage than a spanking ever could simply by the words they use.

I agree. However, the fact that there can be something even worse doesn´t justify anything.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think it is exactly that.

And that's great. For you. You don't seem me calling you names and claiming you don't know how to raise children, right?

So far you haven´t even succeeded in explaining the reason behind it to me and others here - but then again you don´t have the means of corporate punishment to "convince" us.

I'm actually not here to convince you that spanking is okay. You're going to believe what you want to believe and that's perfectly fine with me. What I've been railing on is the fact that while we spankers aren't judging you guys, you all seem perfectly content in your little world calling us abusers and pedophiles and sexual deviants.

I agree. However, the fact that there can be something even worse doesn´t justify anything.

And again, that's not the argument I'm making here. I'm not even saying spanking works for all kids. I haven't said it should be done all the time. I've said that it can be done under certain circumstances. Do I spank all the time? Goodness no. Months can go by where my children don't get spanked. Heck, months can go by where my kids don't get into trouble period. Yet, hey, because I spank my kid when he runs into traffic I'm practically a rapist!

And I'm not supposed to be offended by that or say anything about it?

AGAIN, for the last time...if you don't spank, that's fine and dandy and I respect your decision to not do so. I don't think you're a horrible parent and I don't think you're raising your children wrong. I don't advocate caning and I don't think spanking works on all children. I also don't think spanking works for all parents because there are some pretty stupid parents out there who don't understand context.

I can't get much clearer than that, so if you (and these are, of course, general yous) still think that I advocating beating children, please keep it to yourself this time around because it's a tired, false argument.

 

[Bro_Sam]

I don't understand how anyone could allow someone else to hit their child.

I don't know of anyone who would allow someone to hit their child, but you're only twenty-two. When I was a kid, it was common to be disciplined by other children's parents.

Some people just shouldn't have kids.

And people who don't understand the difference between spanking and beating/hitting are a good example.

 

[BlackSabb]

I guess you and I need to talk about what you mean by "older child".

An "older child" is someone of vocabulary understanding. Able to be communicated with and communicate back to you. So, I don't know, about 3 or 4yrs onwards.

Please, do show me where I've said it's okay to cane a child...(psst...you can't because I haven't.)

And what sort of bizarre, man made universe do you live in? Who makes all these nonsensical rules? It's okay to hit a child with a belt or a spoon but not a cane? Why not PreachersWife? Where does that rule come from? What else can you use? A hairbrush? Broom handle? What else can't you use? A strap? Whip?

Says who PreachersWife? You?

You're all over the place PreachersWife. If it's okay to use belts and spoons, then it's okay to use canes too. Please don't spout nonsensical personal man made double standard rules such as these.

Also, this tired old clap trap of "it's not abuse-it's discipline" or "the difference between beating and discipline". What's the difference between beating and discipline? Is it "discipline" if you're hit a couple of times across the backside with a belt (but not a cane as per the personal rules of PreachersWife) as opposed to getting hit say 6 times?

What nonsense. A beating is a beating. Whether by belt, spoon, cane etc and whether it's one hit or 6 and more. You know what is the difference between discipline and beating? Well, a beating is just that as I've just said. Discipline is some other form of corrective punishment for wrong doing, like withdrawing of privileges etc.

 

[quatona]

And that's great. For you.

It´s just my opinion. I don´t see how it´s particularly great for me.

You don't seem me calling you names and claiming you don't know how to raise children, right?

Yes, right. I didn´t speak about your person at all. If you can´t discuss a topic without projecting your emotional involvement onto others there´s not even an opportunity for anyone to disagree with you.

I'm actually not here to convince you that spanking is okay.

Not? Maybe my impression is completely wrong, but I see you justifying it all the time. And that´s the nature of an ethics discussion: We are exchanging opinions on an ethics issue.

You're going to believe what you want to believe and that's perfectly fine with me. What I've been railing on is the fact that while we spankers aren't judging you guys,

Well, if you think that abstaining from spanking is wrong, you are welcome to say so.
I don´t take criticism of a behaviour I engage in as personal judgement. Else I couldn´t participate in the majority of threads here without feeling generally judged and insulted.

you all seem perfectly content in your little world calling us abusers and pedophiles and sexual deviants.

I have called you none of it, and actually I haven´t seen "all" or even only "many" call you pedophile or sexual deviants, and I disagree with those who do.
I haven´t even seen anyone saying "you abuser". I have seen people positing their opinion that corporal punishment is abuse (and they have provided the definition of the word that they refer to along with it - a definition that does not imply an equation with major crimes).
I personally haven´t called you any of these terms, I haven´t even used these terms for spanking, so all these "you all" and "in your little world" and stuff appears to be a generalisation suited to help you taking things personally that aren´t personally.
Whatever ethical issue we discuss controversially, there will be people who have a negative opinion on it. If I follow your argument that criticizing a behaviour equals a judgement of the person engaging in it, morality&ethics discussions naturally and necessarily come with judging others. That in this case you are at the receving end (reading criticism of a behaviour that you happen to engage in) is bad luck. If you can´t handle it, I think ethics&morality is just not a place for you.

qAnd again, that's not the argument I'm making here.

Good.
So what purpose does the statement that there can be something even worse serve, again?

I'm not even saying spanking works for all kids.

I didn´t say you did.

I haven't said it should be done all the time.

I didn´t say you did.
However, I disapprove of it even if it is done only part time.

I've said that it can be done under certain circumstances. Do I spank all the time? Goodness no. Months can go by where my children don't get spanked. Heck, months can go by where my kids don't get into trouble period.

When I am discussing "spanking" (or whatever ethical issue) I am of course talking about those instances when it is done, and not those instances when it is not done. So I don´t know why you tell me all this.

Yet, hey, because I spank my kid when he runs into traffic I'm practically a rapist!

Well, if you put offending statements in people´s mouthes you shouldn´t be surprised to feel offended.

And I'm not supposed to be offended by that or say anything about it?

You can feel offended all you like.
When I say "corporal punishment is bullying" I am talking about the ethics&morality issue "corporal punishment", and not about your person. This is ethics&morality, and this is the place to discuss ethics&morality. If we can´t criticize behaviours and methods that other posters here happen to engage in we can shut the place down.

AGAIN, for the last time...if you don't spank, that's fine and dandy and I respect your decision to not do so.

That´s cool, but if you would think it´s not fine or wrong not to spank one´s children I would be perfectly fine with you saying so without taking offense.

I don't think you're a horrible parent and I don't think you're raising your children wrong.

That´s fine. If you found that I was a horrible person I would be fine with that either. I don´t think, though, that an ethics&morality discussion is the place to make such statements. I don´t think you are a horrible person, either (heck, I don´t even know you), but if you feel that finding behaviours you happen to engage in criticized equals being called a "horrible person" that´s entirely your making, and I am afraid I can´t help it.

I don't advocate caning and I don't think spanking works on all children. I also don't think spanking works for all parents because there are some pretty stupid parents out there who don't understand context.

That´s fine and dandy, but I think you have said it before. I don´t think I have said or implied anything to the contrary (actually I try very hard not to make statements about you personally at all, but you seem to be determined to take things personally. Your person is not the subject of the discussion. Corporal punishment is.)

I can't get much clearer than that, so if you (and these are, of course, general yous) still think that I advocating beating children, please keep it to yourself this time around because it's a tired, false argument.

Whatever term you use for it - I think I have a pretty clear view of what you are advocating. And I disapprove of what you are advocating. I reserve the right to say so, because that´s the nature of an ethics&morality discussion.

 

[cantata]

Corporal punishment isn't bullying, though, and if you explained the reasoning behind discipline and corporal punishment, your kids would understand that.

In my experience, bullies often explain to their victims why their violent and abusive actions are absolutely necessary. Their victims believe them more often than you’d expect.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

An "older child" is someone of vocabulary understanding. Able to be communicated with and communicate back to you. So, I don't know, about 3 or 4yrs onwards.

Okay, that sounds about right. I wasn't spanked much past the age of five.

And what sort of bizarre, man made universe do you live in? Who makes all these nonsensical rules? It's okay to hit a child with a belt or a spoon but not a cane? Why not PreachersWife? Where does that rule come from? What else can you use? A hairbrush? Broom handle? What else can't you use? A strap? Whip?

So basically you were trying to trap me with that question. You said I hadn't experienced hard spanking so I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about that spanking isn't beating. I explained that rarely was the hand used on me and so now I'm in trouble for that. I was screwed right from the get go with that question, I suppose.

[quote[Says who PreachersWife? You?[/quote]

I've repeatedly said that it is up to the parent.

You're all over the place PreachersWife. If it's okay to use belts and spoons, then it's okay to use canes too. Please don't spout nonsensical personal man made double standard rules such as these.

Whoa...you made the caning comparison before I even said anything about belts or spoons. Caning is a completely process. And I certainly don't advocate parents using belts or spoons now. I merely pointed out that my parents did but it was not abuse. Again, I ask: did you know me as a child? No.

Also, this tired old clap trap of "it's not abuse-it's discipline" or "the difference between beating and discipline". What's the difference between beating and discipline? Is it "discipline" if you're hit a couple of times across the backside with a belt (but not a cane as per the personal rules of PreachersWife) as opposed to getting hit say 6 times?

Dude, what on earth is your issue with me? You've said it's okay to spank up to a certain age, but then you're accusing me of saying we can beat our children and that it's not abuse. So which is it for you? Is spanking abuse? Or not?

What nonsense. A beating is a beating. Whether by belt, spoon, cane etc and whether it's one hit or 6 and more. You know what is the difference between discipline and beating? Well, a beating is just that as I've just said. Discipline is some other form of corrective punishment for wrong doing, like withdrawing of privileges etc.

So you DON'T believe in spanking as a form of discipline? I am so confused here, because initially we are in agreement, spanking up to a certain age is appropriate discipline - that's what you've said on more than one occasion. But somehow I'm the bad guy here?

Please, help me understand where you're coming from, because I don't know how it can be beating when I do it, but not beating when you're doing it.

 

[BlackSabb]

It's real simple PreachersWife, and I think most people here can understand it. One light swat with your hand on the backside to a toddler is sometimes necessary. Please don't compare that with a "beating". There is a world of difference between the two. Like the differnce between a hug and a kiss.

And like I said, just as I thought, you weren't touched past the age of 5. Go figure. I'm certain if you got a beating, just once even, you wouldn't be advocating it. As I said, it's real brave and noble of you.

Don't even attempt to link my gentle hand swats to a wayward toddler with what most people identify as a beating. I am not inconsistent. This is not a beating at all-in fact, it's more noise than pain. I am not the inconsistent one, you are.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It's real simple PreachersWife, and I think most people here can understand it. One light swat with your hand on the backside to a toddler is sometimes necessary. Please don't compare that with a "beating". There is a world of difference between the two. Like the differnce between a hug and a kiss.

Um...I'm not one calling spanking a beating. I'm the one railing against it being called a beating.

And like I said, just as I thought, you weren't touched past the age of 5. Go figure. I'm certain if you got a beating, just once even, you wouldn't be advocating it. As I said, it's real brave and noble of you.

Where have I advocated beating a child? WHERE? And your first assertion was that I was not spanked much - nothing about age. The goalposts just moved again.

Don't even attempt to link my gentle hand swats to a wayward toddler with what most people identify as a beating. I am not inconsistent. This is not a beating at all-in fact, it's more noise than pain. I am not the inconsistent one, you are.

Okay...I've been in this thread talking about how spanking is an acceptable form of discipline. We agree that spanking after a certain age is not a good idea. We even agree closely on what age that should be. I have never beat my children, I too use a gentle hand on them when they need to be reminded of the rules.

So how am I being inconsistent? I spank. I do not abuse my children. I do not consider spanking to be abuse, nor do I think it is beating. Is that clear enough for you? Or are we just losing something in the translation?

 

[rambot]

Corporal punishment is NEVER necessary..... but it's often the easiest.

 

[BlackSabb]

Um...I'm not one calling spanking a beating. I'm the one railing against it being called a beating.

Where have I advocated beating a child? WHERE? And your first assertion was that I was not spanked much - nothing about age. The goalposts just moved again.

Okay...I've been in this thread talking about how spanking is an acceptable form of discipline. We agree that spanking after a certain age is not a good idea. We even agree closely on what age that should be. I have never beat my children, I too use a gentle hand on them when they need to be reminded of the rules.

So how am I being inconsistent? I spank. I do not abuse my children. I do not consider spanking to be abuse, nor do I think it is beating. Is that clear enough for you? Or are we just losing something in the translation?

It is you who have "moved the goal posts". You claim that you are against "beating" and that you have been consistent. Well, here is what you said in earlier post:

I got spanked with a belt and wooden spoon. Rarely was the hand used. And no, I still don't think it was abuse. Did you know me as a child? No. Did you know my parents? No. So stop making judgments about them or me...

You are totally inconsistent and all over the place. First you claim that beating is abuse. Then you claim that your parents use of a belt on you wasn't "abuse" and that they shouldn't be judged.

You then claimed that only a hand was used on you until about 5yrs old, but then you claim later that you were hit with a belt and spoon as a slighter older child.

What am I to make of all this inconsistency? Get back to me when you get your story straight.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It is you who have "moved the goal posts". You claim that you are against "beating" and that you have been consistent. Well, here is what you said in earlier post:

You are totally inconsistent and all over the place. First you claim that beating is abuse. Then you claim that your parents use of a belt on you wasn't "abuse" and that they shouldn't be judged.

Beating is abuse. I have not waivered on that.

When my parents used the spoon or belt on me, it was not abuse. I know what I was like as a child, and this was the one form of discipline that basically kept me from killing myself as a toddler. You couldn't say to me "Beckie, you can't climb onto the bed and do a belly flop on the floor" - that would just make me do it more. My "abuse" as you like to call it likely saved my life, because if I did something and got spanked for it, I never did that thing again. So it was effective for me, and my parents did it with the spirit that it was intended - to teach me a lesson and teach me not to do something.

Do I advocate that parents use spoons and belts these days? Not really...but not because I think they're abusive or because they're bad, but because the majority of parents don't even understand the basic principle of spanking. Most parents spank their kids in anger or frustration, not out of the hope that it will quell the child's desire to get in trouble.

You then claimed that only a hand was used on you until about 5yrs old, but then you claim later that you were hit with a belt and spoon as a slighter older child.

I don't recall saying that only a hand was used on me. Could you point me to where I said that so that I may correct my statement? Hands were used, but often it didn't do the trick, mainly because they didn't really make much impact.

What am I to make of all this inconsistency? Get back to me when you get your story straight.

I guess I'm still confused as to why you're attacking me this way. We agree on the basic principle of spanking, do we not? We agree that spanking done in the proper context is not abuse, nor is it abuse. We agree that spanking shouldn't be done past a certain age and that it becomes ineffective, do we not?

If you have a problem with the way my parents raised me, I guess I can only tell you to take it up with them. I'm a pretty good egg these days, I love my parents, have no ill feelings towards the discipline the issued me. I was a hard-nosed kid. I was a "problem" child, and if it wasn't for the way my parents raised me, I'd probably be dead or in jail these days. It was because my parents cared about my welfare that they disciplined me when it was needed. When I got older and spanking didn't work, they moved to removing privileges. One time, when I was caught in a lie as big as New York (and still wouldn't fess up to it) they grounded me to my room. After the first day, they realized that wasn't working because all I did was sit and read, something I did on a normal basis. So they took my books away, except for school books. I tell ya, I HATED that. It happened twice and then I stopped the behavior that I was getting in trouble for. By the time I was 13, I was pretty much a good kid with some minor bumps along the way.

So no, I don't consider what my parents did to me was abuse. They did all that they could to keep me from hurting or killing myself. Those spankings were only done under dire circumstances, like when I was four and I let myself out of the house at 3am because I wanted to play outside, or when I climbed into a tree and watched for three hours as my parents, neighbors and police searched for me. I never was spanked for anything minor. Throwing a toy got the toy removed. Throwing a tantrum was ignored, which drove me nuts. A slight slap on the wrist was often enough to keep me from punching the buttons on the TV. Time outs? Those were a joke when I was a toddler. Short of tying me down or sitting on me, there wasn't any way to keep me seated for any length of time unless it involved food.

Perhaps that will give you a bit of insight into why my parents used the form of discipline that they did, I don't know. You seem bent on making me to be the bad guy here, and if that's the outcome you want, that's the outcome you will perceive, no matter what I say here. I've tried to explain myself several times and I think you are still crossing me with someone else here and thinking I've said things that I didn't. For the record, I never once said you abused your kids, I never once compared your spanking to abuse, nor do I believe you even remotely abuse your children.

And now I will bow out of the conversation. I've said all I can say and if you still think I'm the bad person who abuses my kids and that my parents abused me, well, go right ahead. It doesn't change who I am now and it doesn't change what I believe about spanking.

 

[Joachim]

I support corporal punishment and will use it on my children