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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Big Mouth Nana
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Evidently you don't know a lot about the USA since you live in Scotland. Why are you evading the fact of what Rev 18 states that I posted regarding crying over Rome? Babylon fits this nation exactly. We are the trading giant in the world. When this nation is taken out in one hour, a lot of merchants and those who trade by sea are going to be crying who we have made rich. It doesn't take an Eienstien or someone "Spiritual" to figure this out. God isn't trying to make the bible harder then what is there. Some things are point blank!! Years ago the "mystery" would have been a mystery concerning Babylon. In this day and age it is only obvious.
Some ask the question regarding how the USA (Babylon) was drunken with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus inRev 17:6. Some say it is Jerusalem. Nope. Once the USA is given one hour with the beast with the other 9 "horns," Christians are going to be killed worldwide and martyrd, and some right here on our soil. The AC comes right out of Babylon (USA), and is in fact already on the job trying to get his plans started.
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B1inHim
LOVE one another
met·a·phor n.
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in A mighty fortress is our God. Cf. mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. Something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
The common bond between this OLD literal BABYLON and the one in the Book of Revelation is that everybody had a UNIVERSAL language and they had a UNIVERSAL GOD. Today the universal language is English and you can worship any god you please in the GOOD ol U.S. of A.
REV 18:3 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries.
USA
REV 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
USA
REV 18:9 "When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury
USA
REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
USA
REV 18:14 "They will say, `The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her
USA
Dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
USA
`Was there ever a city like this great city?'
USA
" `Woe! Woe, O Great City, where all who had ships on the sea, became rich through her wealth!
USA
Does anybody actually believe that the present day literal Babylon will be rebuilt to the magnificence that is being described in the previous verses? I dont think so, how could it? That takes years of bartering, wheeling and dealing. That type of character is built over a period of time that could not possibly be made in the short amount of time that we have left to go in this phase of life.
Does Rome have this kind of massive trade going on?
Russia has war heads more ICBM pointed at U.S.. Oh and dont forget that we gave up control of the Panama Canal to RED China, who also has been buying top secret and classified materials from the previous leader of U.S. before he gave up his position to Bush
sud·den adj.
1. Happening, coming, made, or done quickly, without warning, or unexpectedly: a sudden attack.
2. Occurring without transition from the previous form, state, etc.; abrupt: a sudden turn.
3. Impetuous; rash.
4. Archaic. Quickly made or provided.
5. Obs. unpremeditated.
Adv.
6. Literary. Suddenly.
n.
7. Obs. an unexpected occasion or occurrence.
8. all of a sudden, without warning; unexpectedly; suddenly.
De·struc·tion n.
1. the act of destroying: wanton destruction of a town.
2. the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.
3. a cause or means of destroying.
[12751325; ME (< AF) < L d"structi$n- (s. of d"structi$), equiv. to d"struct (us) (ptp. of d"struere; see DESTROY) de·stroy (di stroiÆ), v.t.
1. To reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. To put an end to; extinguish.
3. To kill; slay.
4. To render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. To defeat completely.
19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" `Woe! Woe, O Great City, where all who had ships on the sea, became rich through her wealth!
In one hour, she has been brought to ruin!
met·a·phor n.
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in A mighty fortress is our God. Cf. mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. Something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
This is not an act of disobedience towards this country by me. This country has been living in complete disobedience from GOD Almighty for more that several decades now.
Our governments are turning a blind eye to the GAY rights movement.
Sodom and Gomorrah was not just destroyed for the sin of homosexuality alone. It was politically, publicly and privately accepted as a way of life.
It is doing just fine and dandy right here in the good ol U.S. of A.
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in A mighty fortress is our God. Cf. mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. Something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
The common bond between this OLD literal BABYLON and the one in the Book of Revelation is that everybody had a UNIVERSAL language and they had a UNIVERSAL GOD. Today the universal language is English and you can worship any god you please in the GOOD ol U.S. of A.
REV 18:3 For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries.
USA
REV 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
USA
REV 18:9 "When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury
USA
REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
USA
REV 18:14 "They will say, `The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her
USA
Dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
USA
`Was there ever a city like this great city?'
USA
" `Woe! Woe, O Great City, where all who had ships on the sea, became rich through her wealth!
USA
Does anybody actually believe that the present day literal Babylon will be rebuilt to the magnificence that is being described in the previous verses? I dont think so, how could it? That takes years of bartering, wheeling and dealing. That type of character is built over a period of time that could not possibly be made in the short amount of time that we have left to go in this phase of life.
Does Rome have this kind of massive trade going on?
There are unregistered nuclear warheads floating around in the Gulf of Mexico, courtesy of the old USSR and held by President Castro. Then we have North Korea with unregistered ICBMs with nuclear warheads. Iran is in the mix as well.
sud·den adj.
1. Happening, coming, made, or done quickly, without warning, or unexpectedly: a sudden attack.
2. Occurring without transition from the previous form, state, etc.; abrupt: a sudden turn.
3. Impetuous; rash.
4. Archaic. Quickly made or provided.
5. Obs. unpremeditated.
Adv.
6. Literary. Suddenly.
n.
7. Obs. an unexpected occasion or occurrence.
8. all of a sudden, without warning; unexpectedly; suddenly.
De·struc·tion n.
1. the act of destroying: wanton destruction of a town.
2. the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.
3. a cause or means of destroying.
[12751325; ME (< AF) < L d"structi$n- (s. of d"structi$), equiv. to d"struct (us) (ptp. of d"struere; see DESTROY) de·stroy (di stroiÆ), v.t.
1. To reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. To put an end to; extinguish.
3. To kill; slay.
4. To render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. To defeat completely.
19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" `Woe! Woe, O Great City, where all who had ships on the sea, became rich through her wealth!
In one hour, she has been brought to ruin!
Soon The day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night When people are saying, All is well; everything is peaceful and secure, then disaster will fall upon them as suddenly as a womans birth pains begin when her child is about to be born. Moreover, there will be no escape.
I Thes. 5:3
No other city on the face of this planet has got this much going for it and that much to loose along with them saying peace and safety than that of this City
met·a·phor n.
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in A mighty fortress is our God. Cf. mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. Something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.
This is not an act of disobedience towards this country by me. This country has been living in complete disobedience from GOD Almighty for more that several decades now.
Our governments are turning a blind eye to the GAY rights movement.
Sodom and Gomorrah was not just destroyed for the sin of homosexuality alone. It was politically, publicly and privately accepted as a way of life.
Sound familiar?
We export more whoredoms per capita than any other government or country on this planet.
WE are the producers of it.
We are the reason why the rest of the world is getting rich with all our jobs that have been conveniently out sourced.
Billions of dollars are being spent in other countries so that our businesss here can work with less overhead costs.
I just got off the phone whit a customer service representative to discuss my
Dish network account
the representative was in India. INDIA!!!!
The CHASE bank customer service is out of Puerto Rico!!!
This why we dont have any jobs here
Dont get me started!
We are in for a very RUDE AWAKENING and when the Word of GOD is fulfilled no one here will have the chance to do anything like say go into the house to even get a coat. It will happen all of the SUDDEN.
That is why this servant has saying that we need to get ready for the return of Lord Jesus now, more so than ever before.
RND you asked for proof. Here it is.
Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
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Babylon is not the US, UN, or some other. Babylon (mystery) is Jerusalem whereby a KING will reside in rule the world ; sounds familiar..... The AC claims to be the most high so where do you think he would rule from?
The harlot
The bible only has spoken of one such city as a harlot, Jerusalem.
Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a harlot.
Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4
Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.
Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for MY PEOPLE to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.
Rev. 18:6 This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This double punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.
Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a harlot and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.
Rev. 18:22, 23 We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.
Understanding Babylon is Jerusalem is the first key in understanding Satan's strong delusion. A complete counterfeit.
The harlot
The bible only has spoken of one such city as a harlot, Jerusalem.
Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a harlot.
Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4
Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.
Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for MY PEOPLE to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.
Rev. 18:6 This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This double punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.
Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a harlot and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.
Rev. 18:22, 23 We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.
Understanding Babylon is Jerusalem is the first key in understanding Satan's strong delusion. A complete counterfeit.
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zeke37
IMO...
not Rome, but Jerusalem, pointing to those in God's service
Jerusalem also has 7 hills
as for the priests garb....and what scarlet represents...
Ez39:1And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.
2And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
Isa1:18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Rev18:16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
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RND
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Questions: What times and laws did Jerusalem change? What religio/political figure in Israels history is seen as the 'little horn' in Daniel 7 and 8?
Did you notice there is no blue in the Rev. 18 reference? Do you know why? Do you know what blue represents? Is there anything at all from Jerusalem that currently represents this figure in Rev 18?
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Not what Jerusalem is currently but what it WILL become........ ie in NEW Jerusalem. Babylon is a counterfiet when is arises upon the earth..
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RND
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What was the reason for calling Jerusalem a "harlot?" Also, is Jerusalem only called a harlot or are there others?
Hsa 6:10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there [is] the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
Hsa 4:1 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because [there is] no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land. Hsa 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with harlots, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people [that] doth not understand shall fall.
Eze 20:30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
Num 25:1 And Israel abode in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
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RND
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New Jerusalem is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Exactly. Something that is seen as religious but is steeped in paganism. Is anything in Jerusalem like this?
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Your missing the point. The city Babylon will give the appearence as New Jerusalem, a king, riches, and peace ect.... The inhabinants of the earth will believe Christ has came.
Mark
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Big Mouth Nana
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Aw come on now...think!!!! Does Jerusalem sit on many waters? NO. It is in the desert. The USA sits on the Pacific Ocean, The Atlantic Ocean, the gulf of Mexico, and has many tribuataries of water all throughout. Where around Jerusalem would this verse be happening...Rev 18: 17..And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Tell me exactly what big trade commodities Jerusalem has? What does she have that made all these merchants rich? I'll tell you...NOTHING!! The USA imports and exports all of these things. You folks just can't accept the fact that the good ole USA is a harlot and the beast carries her..Rev 17:7 ~ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
He is carrying her now because he is her President. The 7 heads are symbolic of the 7 points on the Statue of Liberties crown. Go count them.
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when did these waters become literal?
Re 17:15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Look into the future....... we can't only understand prophecy by looking out our window. When Babylon comes ALL other cities will be destroyed and yes including the goood ole USA. There will be no rivals, it is located in a wilderness a barren land.
Isa 14:16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;Isa 14:17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Re 17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
I guess you supposed Christ is going to return to the USA instead of Jerusalem?
Mark
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RND
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That sounds very fanciful, something that might be in a Kurt Cameron movie, and yet there is an entity that is now on earth that claims to act as God on earth.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." - Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).[/FONT]
Who from Jerusalem has ever made such claims? Is there any religious/political leader or entity from Jerusalem that has ever changed "times and laws" and made the claims of being God on earth? Even once?
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Big Mouth Nana
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The 7 points in "human" terms stands for the 7 seas (MANY WATERS) and 7 continents.
WikiAnswers - How many points on the Statue of Liberty's Crown
WikiAnswers - How many points on the Statue of Liberty's Crown
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zeke37
IMO...
Ephraim is a tribe of Israel, of the now scattered northern kingdom...making Israel defiled...The Northern Kingdom even used Ephraim as its name sometimes, just as Judah is used for the southern kingdom which included Benjamin and some Levites.
all of the above references are to Israel. Jerusalem is the capital of physical and spiritual Israel.
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RND
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What are the "water" symbolic of?
Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
The great harlot sits (rules) over many people both religiously and politically. That can on be Rome. There is no such figure in the US that qualifies.
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RND
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Correct. What does the whoredom represent?
What times and laws did Jerusalem change?
Are these symbols regarding Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem pictured as a woman riding a beast (political power) with a golden cup in her hand?
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
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