Abortion in the case of disability

[lux et lex]

So...you're saying ELCA isn't Christian?

 

[kepha31]

So...you're saying ELCA isn't Christian?

No. I think there are a lot of good Christians in the ELCA who are appauled at the moral compromise of their leaders. It is the ELCA who have further removed themselves from The Body of Christ. It will probably rot and die as a consequence of its own sins. I could be mistaken here, but God will hold them accountable for the offspring of the unborn that could have come into existence but did not. All the souls that could have praised Him forever, but there potential parent was denied the right to life. You really want to take that chance when your time comes to look Him in the face?

The big deception here is that you think you are doing God a favor.


When did God come in the flesh? At Conception, or after birth?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So...you're saying ELCA isn't Christian?

That's a whole can of worms that I'm not going to get into here.

ELCA is not confessional Lutheranism...meaning you don't prescribe to the Confessions.

 

[lux et lex]

ELCA is not confessional Lutheranism...meaning you don't prescribe to the Confessions.

That's correct, but I'm confused as to how this pertains...

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That's correct, but I'm confused as to how this pertains...

Let me refresh your memory as to how this went down:

Me: We don't believe abortion is okay
You: What "we"? (outlines what the ELCA believes about abortion)
Me: Let me clarify. Confessional Lutherans don't believe abortion is okay
You: We're not Christians?
Me: I didn't say that, I said Confessional Lutherans. ELCA is not confessional.

Does it make more sense now? Confessional Lutheran churches don't believe abortion is okay. A non-confessional church such as the ELCA does, as per your post earlier in this thread.

 

[lux et lex]

Oh gotcha. Thanks.

 

[kepha31]

Oh gotcha. Thanks.

Your question was not directed to me but this is a question I won't let you dodge, due to its pertainence:

When did God come in the flesh? At Conception, or after birth?

 

[lux et lex]

God, as God, was never conceived. He has always been and always will be.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

God, as God, was never conceived. He has always been and always will be.

I think you know what question he is asking - unless you're going to deny that Jesus is God in human form.

So did God manifest as a human at conception, or when Jesus was born?

 

[kepha31]

God, as God, was never conceived. He has always been and always will be.

That is not an answer. We agree that Jesus was not created, but had always been with the Father. But do you refuse to admit that He had a human mother, and that Jesus is God come in the flesh? Or did Jesus come to us via space ship??? When did Jesus, who was always with the Father, become one of us? After He was born or in the womb of His mother?

I think some evangelists may wish to question you further.

To say a child is unwanted says nothing about the child, but it says much about the person who does not want his or her child...
- Jean Staker Garton, co-founder and president of the national organization Lutherans for Life

"What an irony that a society confronted with plastic bags filled with the remains of aborted babies should be more concerned about the problem of recycling the plastic"... - Winifred Egan

"`Fetal tissue' implants are not that much different from Nazi lamp shades made of Jewish skin. Both intend to put by-products of murder to `good use. - David Kupelian and Mark Masters, journalists

"There are two victims in every abortion: a dead baby and a dead conscience." - Mother Teresa

"Ive noticed that everyone who is for abortion is already born." - Ronald Reagan

"Simple morality dictates that unless and until someone can prove the unborn human is not alive, we must give it the benefit of the doubt and assume it is (alive). And, thus, it should be entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." - Ronald Reagan 1982

Lutherans for Life ?? Ronald Reagan?? Is that your "Catholic dogma and pro life propaganda"?

 

[lux et lex]

Jesus was God in human form. I am not arrogant enough to point to a certain point and say "aha! That is where the soul is inserted". If I had to throw out my opinion, it would probably be during the "quickening".

As for your quotes, I think you need to stop and think about all the reasons for abortion. I would hardly call someone selfish or a nazi that is having an abortion for medical reasons (and maybe this is hitting too close to home right now because I have a friend who is having an abortion for medical reasons within the next week, she would likely die if she did not). Say what you will about women who get them for other reasons, but it's never an easy choice, like you anti-choice folks would like to paint it is.

Oh and btw, anything with "for Life" in it would be categorized as "pro life" propaganda, just in case you were curious.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Jesus was God in human form. I am not arrogant enough to point to a certain point and say "aha! That is where the soul is inserted". If I had to throw out my opinion, it would probably be during the "quickening".

Wouldn't this very logic give over to the fact that abortion at any point in time is not right? Since we can't magically say "here's when the soul comes", wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution?

As for your quotes, I think you need to stop and think about all the reasons for abortion. I would hardly call someone selfish or a nazi that is having an abortion for medical reasons (and maybe this is hitting too close to home right now because I have a friend who is having an abortion for medical reasons within the next week, she would likely die if she did not). Say what you will about women who get them for other reasons, but it's never an easy choice, like you anti-choice folks would like to paint it is.

Except for the statistics everywhere show that abortion is done as a means of convenience, not as medical necessity.

Murdering an unborn child should never be "easy" and I hope it only gets harder for women who are contemplating abortions to make the decision to abort.

Oh and btw, anything with "for Life" in it would be categorized as "pro life" propaganda, just in case you were curious.

More power to the propaganda, then. Pro-abortion people cling to their propaganda, and I'd rather cling to the propaganda that doesn't advocate killing someone else, thank you.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I understand how hard it can be to have a child and how detrimental it can be for some people, I myself am Childfree because I know that raising a kid would just overwhelm me. But just because they'd be too much work, especially if they're disabled, I don't think that that gives us an excuse to kill them. Give them up for adoption if you must, but don't kill them; they're human beings.

Don't kill someone because they fall into a minority. Because sooner or later, everyone fits into some kind of minority.

The soul enters the body at the moment of conception, to argue otherwise is to support, dualism, which is a condemned heresy.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I understand how hard it can be to have a child and how detrimental it can be for some people, I myself am Childfree because I know that raising a kid would just overwhelm me. But just because they'd be too much work, especially if they're disabled, I don't think that that gives us an excuse to kill them. Give them up for adoption if you must, but don't kill them; they're human beings.

Don't kill someone because they fall into a minority. Because sooner or later, everyone fits into some kind of minority.

The soul enters the body at the moment of conception, to argue otherwise is to support, dualism, which is a condemned heresy.

QFT, big time...

 

[discussmith]

I find it difficult to understand how a Christian can advocate for abortion as it is currently defined. There are enough scriptures for us to easily come to a conclusion it is wrong. Looking at many of the moral issues already listed by others I add my own. A fetus is human and it is alive thus it is human life of some kind. Until the time of viability it is a developementally disabled human being. It cannot exist without the help and nurture of someone. Much as a newborn. Unlike those outside the womb who are developementally disabled the main difference is that in this case it is temporary. All that is needed is time and a healthy mother. If we cannot advocate for the destruction of developementally disabled people outside the womb who will be so for their entire life how can we do so for those who will only be so for a short time?

That being said I live in a country that does not allow for any particular "religious" ideology to govern its laws. The constitution of the U.S. would appear to allow a woman control of her body including whether or not to be pregnant. My concern of course would be as to whether that allows for absolute control but more on that later. This is where the government steps in and the argument switches to one persons moral judgement against someone elses. In praying and meditating on this side of the arguement I have been forced to abandon all groups current opposition to freedom of choice. It is my sincere belief that no right to life organization will ever win this battle using morality as its weapon. You are after all arguing Roe v. Wade not your definition of morality. This is the justification that ALL abortionists and their proponents hide behind. What is it that gives a woman the right to think she can end a pregnancy or the court the right to say so? I assume you understand it it to be our constitution. When praying about this the Lord clearly spoke "By their own words will I condemn them". What is the power of the constitution? If you know this you will know why God will condemn all those who hide behind the constitution to kill unborn children.

I believe the abortion issue can be solved. I believe under the constitution a woman should be able to end a pregnancy if she chooses, but not under the way it is practiced now. I believe that an end of pregnancy should only be allowed by the means that the infant is unharmed. This continues to change as science and medicine advances. Funny no one ever asks an abortionist why does abortion always involve a method that destroys the fetus? Or ask any pro choice lobbyist if they would accept abortion to mean the non destruction of the baby now and when it becomes completely possible to do so at any gestation period? There needs to be an out cry for more research to discover how to make it possible.

So what gives me the right to catagorically state "Abortion is unconstitutional and Roe v. Wade is completely wrong and a miscarriage of constitutional law"?

 

[TheZach]

I actually just had a conversation with someone who thinks abortion is compassionate for a disabled child. As someone with a disability the idea very much so upsets me. I posted the log of the conversation on my blog, so click the link for those that are interested.

Needless to say this person is no longer a friend.

 

[kepha31]

When did God come in the flesh? At Conception, or after birth?

lux

God, as God, was never conceived. He has always been and always will be.

That is not an answer. We agree that Jesus was not created, but had always been with the Father. But do you refuse to admit that He had a human mother, and that Jesus is God come in the flesh? Or did Jesus come to us via space ship??? When did Jesus, who was always with the Father, become one of us? After He was born or in the womb of His mother?

lux

Jesus was God in human form. I am not arrogant enough to point to a certain point and say "aha! That is where the soul is inserted". If I had to throw out my opinion, it would probably be during the "quickening".

Your opinion is wrong, and contrary to medical science. Life begins at conception, not when the mother feels the baby’s first kick.

I’m sure it is a dogmatic belief among all Christian churches that God came in the flesh at conception. Jesus was like us in all things but sin. Jesus was fully human and fully God in the womb. Any Christian who argues this point will quickly fall into one of the Christological heresies of the first 5 centuries.

lux

As for your quotes, I think you need to stop and think about all the reasons for abortion. I would hardly call someone selfish or a nazi that is having an abortion for medical reasons (and maybe this is hitting too close to home right now because I have a friend who is having an abortion for medical reasons within the next week, she would likely die if she did not). Say what you will about women who get them for other reasons, but it's never an easy choice, like you anti-choice folks would like to paint it is.

You can’t be serious. You lead women in to kill their baby, and ministries like Project Rachael are left cleaning up your mess! Do you think real Christians could be so insensitive to the needs and concerns of women who are with child?

Not an easy choice? That is a lie from the pit of hell. Problems can be solved, death is never a solution, and a wrong choice. It is both unnatural and immoral. Real churches support unplanned pregnancies with healthy options, they are not condemned. What I condemn is the false ideologies that have poisoned your soul and blinded your eyes, not the poor woman who sees doctors of death to yank out her baby in pieces, not the poor mother who gets abused by abortion clinics.


I have to be verbally graphic since the mods won’t let me post pics of your silent holocaust. But your obscene sig is OK.

Oh and btw, anything with "for Life" in it would be categorized as "pro life" propaganda, just in case you were curious.

Really? Was Jesus a propagandist too? (I have come that you have LIFE, and have it abundantly&#8230 I am sure others can help out and find more.

One thing I notice that seems to be universal. Whenever a pro-death-ist gets their argument demolished, they resort to the “save the mothers life” red flag. This does not work, because doctors do not intentionally set out to kill the baby. There are morally acceptable surgical procedures that they can employ using the principle of double effect.

The principle of Double Effect works in the case of ectopic pregnancies. The removal of the fallopian tube where the fetus has been implanted is the moral way of taking care of the mother, however, the fetus does die. In this act, the indirect death of another (the fetus) is the secondary effect of the good/indifferent act of the removal of the infected fallopian tube. Babies can’t survive when implanted in the fallopian tube. “Except in the case when the mother’s life is in danger…” is a non sequitur argument that is used as an excuse to ride the slippery slope into infanticide and eugenics. We are seeing that already.


Jesus was fully human in His mothers womb. So were we. So are the babies the pro-death movement is murdering. lux cannot refute this truth, which is why he has been so evasive. For him to admit the full humanity of Jesus in the womb, he has to admit the full humanity of the unborn.

Therefore, the term "pro-choice Christian" is an oxymoron, violates the "Christian only" rule because it has been demonstrated repeatedly that the term is anti-Christian and should be deleted. It is obscene.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Actually, killing disabled, "monstrous" infants was common in Medieval France. Many Catholics did then believe that the cause of the disability was demonic influence in procreation. In some cases even the mother was sentenced to death, accused of conceiving the child by lying with the devil.

This argument is basically moot since we have all advanced as a society since then. Strange thoughts about all kinds of things floated around in the old days. I'm sure a hundred years from now something morbid will be seen about us (who knows, perhaps it will be abortion, or perhaps something else...)

 

[Ave Maria]

Weird...a thread with Catholics painting Lutherans as evil heretics.

Don't worry lux et lex, you won't get this Catholic to paint a Lutheran as an evil heretic.

I actually just had a conversation with someone who thinks abortion is compassionate for a disabled child. As someone with a disability the idea very much so upsets me. I posted the log of the conversation on my blog, so click the link for those that are interested.

Needless to say this person is no longer a friend.

Wow. You quit being friends with someone because of their view on abortion? That is sickening. Also, I am another person who believes that abortion can be compassionate for a disabled child. I am disabled and honestly, there are times when I wish that I had been aborted.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Don't worry lux et lex, you won't get this Catholic to paint a Lutheran as an evil heretic.

Wow. You quit being friends with someone because of their view on abortion? That is sickening. Also, I am another person who believes that abortion can be compassionate for a disabled child. I am disabled and honestly, there are times when I wish that I had been aborted.

That's a shame, because we're all God's children. Had you been aborted because of your disability, you may not have known Christ. And I'd be hardpressed to be friends with someone who'd rather a special needs child be dead than alive. I find that view (that disabled children should be aborted) to be far more sickening than me not wanting to spend time with a person who believes it.