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Catholics on, Interpreting the Bible

Trento

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Or the Lord saw the need to send His later rain upon the world through the truth of the remnant.



Is it Jesus' fault that many people rejected the truth? Is it Jesus' fault that during the Dark Ages as many as 50 million died unnecessarily to satisfy man's lust for power and control?


You may want to study the population of Europe during the middle ages.
In a nutshell, what you have done is to simultaneously create a straw man of yourown making, and engage in circular argument with no guiding principle other than that of Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History. Being familiar with intellectuals who have converted to the Catholic Church after studying every angle of Christian history among them John Henry Newman, G. K. Chesterton, Isaac Hecker, Orestes Brownson, Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Merton, and Dorothy Day, who have henceforth deeply researched, impartial and evaluating evidence, stylistically elegant, and vigorously argued Historical evidence.
It is laughable that anyone would even use Protestant polemics and Revisionist History to disagree with such evidence.
 
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MrPolo

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Hi, I decided to make this because of the following post, I chose to make it anonymous due to privacy for the poster:

This is no bull, he really posted that, I made no changes to his post.

So my question is, . Because each church claims that different things are in the Bible. Luther and Catholics claim Eucharist is in the Bible other churches do not. My question is how do you know who is right?

It requires an examination of Scripture as well as the early Church setup by the Apostles. Your question is actually one that came up in the second century, when the Gnostics were trying to usurp the interpretations held by the bishops of the world. Irenaeus, in his piece "Against Heresies"

But, again, when we refer [the heretics] to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do not consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.2.2, ca 180 A.D.)​
And in the following chapter, he goes on to give an account for who, by name, are the authentic successors of the apostles:
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.3.3, ca 180 A.D.)​
And he goes on to cite agreement with the Roman church as the first sign of authentic faith, and then other bishoprics.

Today, the Catholic Church thus teaches 3 general rules of thumb when interpreting Scripture:

1. Read Scripture in the context of the whole of Scripture.
2. Read Scripture in the context of the Tradition of the Church.
3. Be attentive to the "analogy of the faith."​

The 3rd point means no interpretation may contradict one that was earlier settled. For example, if someone suddenly comes up with an interpretation of Scripture that there is no Trinity, we would know his interpretation was false because the Church, having been promised the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, had settled that matter in the 4th century.
redface.gif
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You may want to study the population of Europe during the middle ages.
In a nutshell, what you have done is to simultaneously create a straw man of yourown making, and engage in circular argument with no guiding principle other than that of Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History. Being familiar with intellectuals who have converted to the Catholic Church after studying every angle of Christian history among them John Henry Newman, G. K. Chesterton, Isaac Hecker, Orestes Brownson, Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Merton, and Dorothy Day, who have henceforth deeply researched, impartial and evaluating evidence, stylistically elegant, and vigorously argued Historical evidence.


It is laughable that anyone would even use Protestant polemics and Revisionist History to disagree with such evidence.
That is why I have the Christian Seeker Icon....I can look unbiasely at both RC and non-RC polemics and Church History.

For myself, I believe the Orthodox Church is closer to the Apostolic teachings than the Roman Church. I could be wrong though....:wave:
 
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Yarddog

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So my question is, . Because each church claims that different things are in the Bible. Luther and Catholics claim Eucharist is in the Bible other churches do not. My question is how do you know who is right?
There is more to Christianity than the Bible and to those who limit their understanding of God, to the Bible, they lose out on the rich spiritual learning which comes from those great men who learned from the apostles and other disciples of Jesus.

When the Church first received the Holy Spirit, they didn't have the written Gospel. They did have the Jewish writings which were in the Jewish synagogues and the knowledge of Jesus in those writings. It was the power of the Holy Spirit which allowed those early Christians to understand the message of truth.

These men went out with this Holy Spirit and began to change the world. Most died for faith. A few of these men wrote down part of the Gospel, trying to encourage the ones they taught to remain firm in the oral traditions they had learned.

Peter and Paul taught the Christians of Antioch the Gospel and appointed men to teach when they were gone. From this we have the writings of St. Ignatius which help us to understand the Gospel. Clement, a disciple of Paul, went with him to Rome and wrote an epistle to the Corinthians reminding them of what Paul had taught, because a few had tried to take over the leadership role in ways unapproved by God.

Barnabas wrote an epistle. Irenaeus, who in his youth had been taught by the Apostle John, wrote a number of works against the heresies that had arisen. Papias wrote five books relating the stories which had been given to him by disciples.

These men did not take what God had given them lightly. They had a grave responsibility to do as God bade them. They cherished what the Apostles had written but they also knew that all wasn't written down but most learning came through the spoken word and divine revelation from God through his Spirit. They cherished what those who had come before them taught, that which was handed down to them.

When the Church came together to bring the books together, they were not intending to cut away the oral tradition which they had received from their teachers. The written tradition and the oral tradition work together to give us the best understanding of the truth of the Gospel.

Yes, the Churches have disagreements over parts of doctrine, but we are in agreement in almost all matters of faith.

The Bible is a wonderful book full of the truth about God, but each can interpret the verses in a different manner. Though the verses are from God, the interpretations may not be.

I pray that we don't let interpretations separate us.
 
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2 King

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To quote Martin Luther, "Scripture is like wax noses; it can be twisted to fit." Luther ought to know as he attemted to change scripture.

2 Peter 3:15: "There are some things in them [St. Paul's letters] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
Stick to the Bible. Listen..... Jesus said that His sheep hear HIS voice and follow HIM, right?
 
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RND

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You may want to study the population of Europe during the middle ages.

Are you referring to the roughly 1,260 reign of papal sumpremacy?

In a nutshell, what you have done is to simultaneously create a straw man of your own making, and engage in circular argument with no guiding principle other than that of Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History. Being familiar with intellectuals who have converted to the Catholic Church after studying every angle of Christian history among them John Henry Newman, G. K. Chesterton, Isaac Hecker, Orestes Brownson, Graham Greene, Evelyn Waugh, Thomas Merton, and Dorothy Day, who have henceforth deeply researched, impartial and evaluating evidence, stylistically elegant, and vigorously argued Historical evidence.
It is laughable that anyone would even use Protestant polemics and Revisionist History to disagree with such evidence.
Any non Catholic apologists you'd care to reference?

Peter Ruckman outdoes Mr. Bilton's version, with the following and quite harrowing account, of 1641:




"For example, in the seventeenth century (1641), the Catholics in Ireland fixed October 23 (the feast of Ignatius Loyola) as a massacre day for Christians and proceeded to kill 150,000 Protestants in one day, which is more than twice as many Catholics as were killed in armed combat fighting Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658) in a year. Bible-believing Protestants were buried in the ground up to their necks till they starved; one man was forced to go to mass, after which they ripped him open and let him bleed to death. Another they sawed asunder, slit his wife's throat, dashed out the brains of his young child, and threw the corpse into a pigsty to be eaten by swine. Several Christians were stripped naked, fastened to horses by ropes placed around their middles, and dragged through bogs until they expired. Thousands were mutilated by having arms, hands, and legs cut off and by being left to bleed to death. Three hundred were drowned in one day in the county of Tyrone, and fifty or sixty were put into one house which was set on fire" - The History of the New Testament Church, Vol. 1, pg. 389.


http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com/articles.php?PageURL=Inquisition.htm


http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_23.html
 
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Trento

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Any non Catholic apologists you'd care to reference?

l

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition," a 1994 BBC/A&E production, will re-air on the History Channel this December 3 at 10 p.m. It is a definite must-see for anyone who wishes to know how historians now evaluate the Spanish Inquisition since the opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's archives. The special includes commentary from historians whose studies verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the Church was greatly fabricated.
In its brief sixty-minute presentation, "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition" provides only an overview of the origins and debunking of the myths of torture and genocide. The documentary definitely succeeds in leaving the viewer hungry to know more. The long-held beliefs of the audience are sufficiently weakened by the testimony of experts and the expose of the making of the myth.
 
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RND

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The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition," a 1994 BBC/A&E production, will re-air on the History Channel this December 3 at 10 p.m. It is a definite must-see for anyone who wishes to know how historians now evaluate the Spanish Inquisition since the opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's archives. The special includes commentary from historians whose studies verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the Church was greatly fabricated.
In its brief sixty-minute presentation, "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition" provides only an overview of the origins and debunking of the myths of torture and genocide. The documentary definitely succeeds in leaving the viewer hungry to know more. The long-held beliefs of the audience are sufficiently weakened by the testimony of experts and the expose of the making of the myth.

TV? Oh, we know everything on TV is true and can be trusted 100%.

Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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MrPolo

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Stick to the Bible. Listen..... Jesus said that His sheep hear HIS voice and follow HIM, right?

Right. So if my interpretation of any given passage matches yours, I will know I am one of His sheep, right?
 
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boswd

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likewise many traditions are based on interpretations.

So who's traditions/interpretations should we trust? The ideals that came from the Reformation and expounded greatly during the Early American Revivals and is still continuing today?

Or

From Early Church Fathers who some of them such a Ignatius, Polycarp etc who served under the Apostles themselves?
 
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2 King

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Right. So if my interpretation of any given passage matches yours, I will know I am one of His sheep, right?
haha. No. Is it in the Bible or not? That is the issue...
The Bible is God's (Jesus') word, right?
Christians will follow Jesus, right?
Jesus said Christians hear his voice and follow HIM, right? Where is Jesus' voice found? Is it in sacred tradition? Is it in my words? Where is Jesus' voice found?


So who's traditions/interpretations should we trust? The ideals that came from the Reformation and expounded greatly during the Early American Revivals and is still continuing today?

Or

From Early Church Fathers who some of them such a Ignatius, Polycarp etc who served under the Apostles themselves?
Jesus said Christians hear his voice and follow HIM, right? Where is Jesus' voice found? Is it in sacred tradition? Is it in my words? Where is Jesus' voice found?
 
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Yarddog

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Interpretations? Hardly. Traditions? Very much so.
I pray that we don't allow interpretations, with or without the full tradition of the Apostles, to separate us. Jesus called us to be one as he and the Father are one.

It is not our interpretations that make us God's children, it is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Any of us that fail to recognize the Holy Spirit within another, who has it, is failing to see Christ.
 
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Standing Up

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So who's traditions/interpretations should we trust? The ideals that came from the Reformation and expounded greatly during the Early American Revivals and is still continuing today?

Or

From Early Church Fathers who some of them such a Ignatius, Polycarp etc who served under the Apostles themselves?

Polycarp's voice was drowned by Rome as seen through other successors like Melito and Polycrates to the Apostolic Tradition. 325 those who you say served under the Apostles (Polycarp) were declared heretical. 341 they were excommunicated for what they learned from the Apostles and Scripture.
 
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spiritwarrior37

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There is so much confusion tody because everyone listens to everyone else on what the understanding of Scripture should be. I have been reading the Bible for 42 years, have read it through several times, and I always come to a greater understanding every time I read. The Holy Spirit opens my eyes to a deeper understanding, and I pray for His guidance every time i sit down to read. Thats the problem today. The CC goes by what the pope says, many others agree with Calvin, Wesley, Luther, etc. Do the Scriptures not tell us that the scriptures are spiritually written to be spiritually discerned? Pray and let the Holy Spirit guide you as you read.
 
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2 King

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There is so much confusion tody because everyone listens to everyone else on what the understanding of Scripture should be. I have been reading the Bible for 42 years, have read it through several times, and I always come to a greater understanding every time I read. The Holy Spirit opens my eyes to a deeper understanding, and I pray for His guidance every time i sit down to read. Thats the problem today. The CC goes by what the pope says, many others agree with Calvin, Wesley, Luther, etc. Do the Scriptures not tell us that the scriptures are spiritually written to be spiritually discerned? Pray and let the Holy Spirit guide you as you read.

Amen Brother.:amen:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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There is so much confusion tody because everyone listens to everyone else on what the understanding of Scripture should be. I have been reading the Bible for 42 years, have read it through several times, and I always come to a greater understanding every time I read. The Holy Spirit opens my eyes to a deeper understanding, and I pray for His guidance every time i sit down to read. Thats the problem today. The CC goes by what the pope says, many others agree with Calvin, Wesley, Luther, etc. Do the Scriptures not tell us that the scriptures are spiritually written to be spiritually discerned? Pray and let the Holy Spirit guide you as you read.
Sounds like excellent advice :thumbsup:
 
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