I Mean No Disrespect!!!

[4godslove]

Before Reading this post you must know that I mean NO DISRESPECT. I really don't care what you believe in and I'm tolerant of all faiths as long as they don't intend to harm anyone. I just have questions...
First of all, let me start off by telling you that I'm agnostic. I come from a Christian family and in this past year I've done some questioning and when I ask people for answers they tell me to read the bible and it just leads to more questions. The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god? If you tell me "It says it in the bible" Then I ask you, How can I be sure that the bible is true? What gives the bible any more veracity than any other religious ancient scriptures. Then there's the statement "Well we all got here some how." Ya but how do we know it was this god that you speak of? I'm really sorry if I offended anyone and I don't mean to "stir things up." I'm just really in need of answers.

you sound a bit like how i was as at one time, although i was not ready to make the jump to that there was no God. but, i did have a lot of questions.

i too was raised in and around family that were all christians of various faiths, and i too had a tendency to find their answers unfulfilling.

i liked the slogan of a tv show, although i can't remember which show it was right now, but their slogan was "the truth is out there".

i think your apparent desire to find it is commendable.

i also think that zechariah in post 10 makes a good point; if this God is what they say He is, then you and the truth are most important to Him, and He must have the ability and desire to communicate with you.

one caveat in this is that He obviously also set things up so that the truth must be important enough to us that we would be willing to do much of the leg work first which your post, i think, shows that you have at least taken a first step in that direction.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The bible holds the answer as to who can be saved quite clearly. When asked "Who can be saved" Jesus replied "With men it is not possible, but with God all things are possible"

Meaning everyone of course. The bible says that he came to save the world, not just you and me but the whole world. It also says that every man shall be tried and saved, that every knee shall bend and every tongue shall swear, that every creature will praise him and many other such things.

 

[OzSpen]

Hybrid,

the bible i think did have scriptures that give references to the attainment of an absolute knowledge of god. but this is a totally subjective state of mind or totally transcending the mind.

Would you please provide these "I think" Scriptures that provide evidence for "an absolute knowledge of god"? "I think" is hardly evidence.

 

[OzSpen]

Soul Searcher,

The bible says that he came to save the world, not just you and me but the whole world. It also says that every man shall be tried and saved

Please provide me with biblical evidence for universalism -- in your language, "every man shall be tried and saved." Where does the Bible say that Jesus came to save "the whole world"?

 

[suzybeezy]

Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him”. If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. John 20:29 “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’".

Romans 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse”.

As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence.

 

[OzSpen]

Suzy,

Thank you for this encouragement:

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse”.

As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence.

Rom. 1:20 not only applies to knowledge of God for all Christians but it speaks of how ALL people have evidence for God's existence around them but what do they do? In the context of Rom. 1:20, they

+ "by their unrighteousness suppress the truth" (v. 18);
+ Suppress "what can be known about God [which is] plain to them" (v. 19);
+ God's attributes are "clearly perceived" from "the things that have been made" so they are "without excuse" (v. 20);
+ They know God but don't honour him or give thanks to him (v. 21).

What do they do to avoid this obvious evidence? They:
+ "became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened" (v. 21);
+ are thus, "fools" (v. 22).

So what does God do? "God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity" (v. 24).

I live in a very secular Australia and when I share with atheists and agnostics, I begin with their common ground but I get back to this evidence in creation that God has told us about in relation to those who doubt the existence of God. In fact, this Romans 1 passage can be dynamite in closing a conversation with an atheist/agnostic.

The bottom line, according to God's revelation in Rom. 1, Psalm 19, Psalm 50, is that atheists/agnostics are being dishonest with the evidence for the existence of God that God has provided.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: You mean to tell me that if a person who is an atheist reaches a point where they acknowledge the need for help from a source outside of themselves, and earnestly cry out to God, that He will turn a deaf ear to them?

What you depicted isn't atheism in the true sense of the word; no it's repentance.

The common New Testament Greek word for repentance is metanoia (met-an'-oy-ah) which means: compunction; by implication reversal.

Its companion word is repent; which is metanoeo (met-an-o-eh'-o) and means: to think differently or afterwards, to reconsider; viz: to change one's mind.

Repentance isn't optional, no, it's mandated.

†. Acts 17:30-31 . . God commands all men every where to repent: because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has appointed; whereof he has given assurance unto all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

An atheist who prays at a venture, experimenting to see if perchance there's a god out there somewhere, isn't repentant; no, they're vacillating; and James says that people in that frame of mind should not expect a reply (Jas 1:5-8).

Before anybody prays, whether it be an atheist or an agnostic, they must first believe the Bible's God exists (Heb 11:6).

An unrepentant atheist is an imbecile.

†. Ps 14:1 . .The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

And a beast too.

†. Mtt 7:6 . . Do not give what is holy to cur animals, and do not feed your pearls to the hogs, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Not until an atheist repents, do they have a right to join the human race. Until then, they should always be regarded as a toxic substance; viz: a threat to our children's safety, and disease in a nation's belly.

†. Ps 9:17 . .The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that tune God out.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Celticflower]

[
Not until an atheist repents, do they have a right to join the human race. Until then, they should always be regarded as a toxic substance; viz: a threat to our children's safety, and disease in a nation's belly.


C.L.I.F.F.
/

I didn't think being human had a whole lot to do with being repentant. You are more than a little harsh don't ya think? A threat to my child's safety? There are some who claim to be Christian that I find a whole lot more threatening than most atheists.
I see that you don't lump those of other faiths in your toxic threat assessment.

So, just how many people do you think you influence in a positive way with such vitriole?

 

[chingchang]

I didn't think being human had a whole lot to do with being repentant. You are more than a little harsh don't ya think? A threat to my child's safety? There are some who claim to be Christian that I find a whole lot more threatening than most atheists.
I see that you don't lump those of other faiths in your toxic threat assessment.

So, just how many people do you think you influence in a positive way with such vitriole?

Dont bother. This is the same guy who is post #36 on this thread wrote:

Sad to say; Christians are among the most biased, bigoted, and opinionated people on earth.

Do you sense that he might be "biased...bigoted and opinionated" against atheists? Can't you just feel the "love your neighbor as yourself"????

Hugs Sister,
CC

 

[Celticflower]

Dont bother. This is the same guy who is post #36 on this thread wrote:


Do you sense that he might be "biased...bigoted and opinionated" against atheists? Can't you just feel the "love your neighbor as yourself"????

Hugs Sister,
CC

Either there are a lot of Christians who hate themselves or they missed that part in the Bible.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Soul Searcher,
Please provide me with biblical evidence for universalism -- in your language, "every man shall be tried and saved." Where does the Bible say that Jesus came to save "the whole world"?

Here are just a few of many


1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now I do not want to turn this into a big debate on universalism, but it is plain that anyone who says some people can not be saved are ignoring much of the bible.

 

[Evergreen48]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Matthew 5: 43. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

It is a truth that there has never been any human who has ever lived upon this earth that has not partaken in some way of God's goodness and mercy - Yes He is the Savior of all men in one way or another. ( women too. )

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

-- Young's Bible
1 Timothy 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 Timothy 2:4 who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth.

-- International Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

-- American Standard
1 Timothy 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 Timothy 2:4 whose will it is that all men should be saved, and come into full knowledge of the truth.

From the original Greek: (Emphatic Greek Diaglot)
1 Timothy 2:1-4 -
1. "I exhort, therefore first of all, to make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving in behalf of all men;
2. In behalf of kings, and all who are in high stations, so that we might lead a tranquil and quiet life in all piety and seriousness.
3. This is good and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4. Who desires all men to be saved, for God is one, and there is one mediator of God and men, that man, Christ Jesus."

Proper translation could mean a lot here.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The propitiation for the sins of the whole world, yes. But it is they in the world who do the will of the Father who abides for ever. (Verse 17)

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I am sure I don't know exactly what the apostle had in view in the 15th verse. But this I am convinced of by reason of many other scriptures that no one's soul has ever been, or will ever be, purified by means of merely burning up their evil works.

Job 24: 19. "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."

Matthew 10: 28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - a place where criminals who were not thought worthy of proper burial were often thrown after they had met their demise.)"

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The apostle says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 that ALL of those who had fallen asleep in Christ would be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15: 16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also WHICH ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN CHRIST are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them = [those who had fallen asleep in Christ =the ones] that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL [those who had fallen asleep in Christ] be made alive.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 3: 16. Yes, that is true. " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Seems to me that verse 40 pretty much enforces that belief on Him would need to be prior to being raised up at the last day ?

 

[OzSpen]

Evergreen48

Seems to me that verse 40 pretty much enforces that belief on Him would need to be prior to being raised up at the last day ?

Your verses quoted seem to confuse three issues:
1. The universal offer of salvation;
2. Universalism (all will be saved); and
3. The resurrection of all people, but you have amalgamated, (1) resurrection to eternal life, and (2) resurrection to damnation (for the latter see Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29; Acts 24:14-15).

 

[Evergreen48]

Evergreen48

Your verses quoted seem to confuse three issues:
1. The universal offer of salvation;
2. Universalism (all will be saved); and
3. The resurrection of all people, but you have amalgamated, (1) resurrection to eternal life, and (2) resurrection to damnation (for the latter see Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29; Acts 24:14-15).

Psalms 1:1. Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


John 11: 23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Soul Searcher]

It is a truth that there has never been any human who has ever lived upon this earth that has not partaken in some way of God's goodness and mercy - Yes He is the Savior of all men in one way or another. ( women too. )

The bible simply says that he is the savior of all men and as I see it, it means the same for one person as it does another, and no it does nto say in some way or another. It is clear what is meant by savior.

Proper translation could mean a lot here.

Not really, you forget that God knows all things, and works all things according to his pleasure. If he wills, wants, desires, intends, hopes, wishes or whatever word you want to put in there the meaning is still the same and that is that the being in total control wants this to happen and there is nothing to stop him from getting what he wants certianly not us puny humans.

Let's also not forget the sworn oath that EVERY knee shall bend....

Matthew 10: 28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - a place where criminals who were not thought worthy of proper burial were often thrown after they had met their demise.)"

Please note the text says is able to, it does not say who will, but in the verse about salvation it does say will not is able. Yet you imply that the one which says will means able and the one which says able means will.

22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL [those who had fallen asleep in Christ] be made alive.

So you add the words, had fallen asleep to the text, of course this would mean that Moses and others would be damned as they did not fall asleep in Christ. Yet the verse was as in Adam, and we are all in Adam even so in Christ which means it is the same all.

Seems to me that verse 40 pretty much enforces that belief on Him would need to be prior to being raised up at the last day ?

Do you honestly think there will be any person who will stand before the judgment seat and still not believe? Do you think they will bend thier knee and swear even though they do nto believe? Or are you adding the requirements that the text only applies to there life on earth?

It seems pretty clear that all will be raised and that all will face judgment, both the just and the unjust. You seem to favor the verse that says belief over the others which say he has been given ALL things and of that which he was given he should loose nothing, That all that has been given unto him will come to him and that he will in no wise cast them out. This is pretty clear and pretty inclusive if you ask me.

 

[Soul Searcher]

5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Sounds like the first verse is saying that the ungodly shall not stand in judgment of the godly nor shall sinners stand in judgment of the saints. He does not mean what you seem to imply that sinners and non believers do not face the judgment.

btw we are all sinners so if it means what you seem to think then we are all doomed.

Note the second verse says the way of.. shall perish, not the man or woman.

26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Of course we know that each and every one of us can. will and do die. The bible tells us that all will be rasied to judgment, that we shall be tried by fire and saved as by fire, that every knee will bend and every tongue shall swear. It is clear that all will believe at this time if not before, think about that and realize that we are all brothers and sisters and none of us are special just because we believe something to be true or false.

 

[IronManMatt]

The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god?

To answer this question I must first know what your definition of what a “god” is. For the purpose of this post I will provide my own answer. A “god” is a being that has always been (i.e. it was never created). I say this because if it was created then whatever created it would have power over it therefore it would not be a “god”. A “god” has power that is only limited by its own nature (i.e. there is nothing more powerful than it, but that doesn’t mean it can’t play by a set of rules). Anything less than this I would consider a superhero and not a “god”.

Our best research tells us that our universe was created in the “big bang”. I am not an expert on this so I won’t try to be but I must discuss it a little. In the Big Bang theory at the beginning of our universe all matter was condensed together in one place and then Bang a bunch of “physics” started happening and the universe as we know it developed.

So where did this original cluster of matter come from? It could have been created by something else or it could have always existed. If it has always existed then I would say that “nature” (i.e all matter) is itself a god since it would meet both of my qualifations. If the original cluster of matter was created by something else then nature is not a god but something else is. No matter how you look at it (according to my definition of “god”) there has to be a “god”.

As long as we agree that stuff exists we must agree that a god exists. There are only two options for how stuff is here, it always was or it was created. Since there is stuff then there is a “god”. But what kind of God?

Then I ask you, How can I be sure that the bible is true? What gives the bible any more veracity than any other religious ancient scriptures.

Here are some reasons why I believe the Holy Bible is the true word of God:

1) The bible contains many (I’m not sure of the number) prophecies that have come true. Check out this site for some details: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8830/prophecy.html

2) Something like 40 human authors wrote down the words of the bible over a period of about 1500 years. These authors had different backgrounds and different cultures. They did not all have the writings of the other authors and yet the whole bible is copasetic and it is all relevant to each other. When I say relevant I mean that the book of Genesis has something to do with the book of Revelations (i.e. the bible is not just a random collection of moral teachings).

3) Non biblical evidence of things described in the bible. This could be a long list but I will keep it short. There is evidence for biblical stories: the ancient city of Jericho was found, Sodom and Gomorrah were found and were found to have been destroyed by balls of sulfur.

4) Eyewitness accounts that corroborate each other. The four gospels were written by four different people, three of whom witnessed Jesus and lived with him for many years, and one Luke the doctor, who researched Jesus’ life from eyewitnesses. All of these accounts corroborate each other. Four written records from four different people in the 1st century seems pretty good to me. Also these accounts were written soon after Jesus’ death (as they were written by people who lived with him). If the gospel writers just wrote a bunch of lies then they would not have become so popular since thousands of people would have personally known that they were lies. For example thousands of people heard Jesus preach and saw him perform miracles. Do you think all of those thousands would be silent on the gospels if they were a lie. This is the exact opposite of books like the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an which were both written by one person who wrote describing events that no one else could have witnessed.

 

[OzSpen]

i

 

[OzSpen]

IronManMatt,

The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god?

Can you be absolutely sure of there being the one true God?

I’m satisfied with the law of evidence in courts: evidence beyond reasonable doubt. On my homepage I have pursued some of these topics:
Who created God?
Does God exist?

William Macdonald wrote:

“If it cost a cent to travel 1,000 miles, a cruise to the moon would be $2.38. But if you wanted to go to the sun, the one-way ticket would cost $930. And a trip to the nearest star would be – hold onto your hat - $260 million. Yet a place in the heart of the One who made this vast universe is free, based on the priceless sacrifice of Christ. Have you reserved your place?"

My understanding of God is that He is the all-powerful, all-knowing, absolutely intelligent, absolutely moral, all-good, uncreated, unchanging, omnipresent, necessary being who is the unique Lord over all creation. He is called Yahweh, “I am who I am” (Ex. 3:14). And that’s only a starter. He has even more attributes than these.

Sincerely, Spencer