Adam & Eve

[Hespera]

This brings back memories of my loss of faith and I have a feeling a lot of you have or may be going through something similar.

Let me tell you a little boring story of my deconversion. It started when I learned more and more of our universe. The things I saw, experienced, and knew to be true didn't match up with what the Bible said was supposed to be true. I started having questions and although deep in my mind I was starting to have doubts about the veracity of the Bible, I repressed them. Repressed them to the point of depression, anxiety, anger, etc.

One morning, I woke up exhausted after hours of sleep. I had been dreaming that I had gone to hell for my blasphemy and was tormented forever. That was it. I was done lying to myself and to god. If he existed, I thought, he already knows I have doubts and questions. In fact, he created me this way to be inquisitive, questioning, and skeptic. So, why try to hide my feelings from someone who can see right through me?

I started questioning, exploring, visited numerous churches and temples. First, I stayed close to my Catholic roots in Pentecostals. I attended Lutheran, Nondenominational, Southern Baptist, and Church of Christ churches. I stayed in each about 5 to 9 months, except for the Nondenominational. I stayed there for about a year and a half.
Everyone treated me stupendously and they NEVER ONCE pressured me into getting saved or anything even though they knew I was losing faith. Beautiful people and wonderful times.

During all this, I prayed, cried, prayed, and begged for a sign from god. Nothing ever came. Not so much as a warm feeling or nice thought. Nothing. Christianity had nothing for me. I called myself agnostic.

I then started expanding to Baha'i, Jewish, and Buddhist temples in Dallas. Nothing. Buddhist was nice on the meditative aspect but nothing I felt was transcendental. I called myself atheist.

After much studying, reading, reread the Bible a second time (first time was in Catechism for my First Communion,) I started exploring religions in a more open way. I then called myself Agnostic Atheist Humanist.

To this day, I don't regret my decision. I was made happier as my cognitive dissonance, from which I obviously suffered, dissipated. I realized how important and beautiful life, the universe and all within it was. Everything made much more sense and being able to question everything (including science and religion) has only increased my knowledge and understanding of the universe.

Don't be afraid to be open about your questions and doubts. Your god already knows how you feel and you can't deceive him. If he's wise, just, and loving, he'll understand how and why you've arrived at that point. Be true to your god and to yourself.

Sorry to hear of you having to go thru all of that! I feel so fortunate that I was not raised in a religious family.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

This brings back memories of my loss of faith and I have a feeling a lot of you have or may be going through something similar.

Let me tell you a little boring story of my deconversion. It started when I learned more and more of our universe. The things I saw, experienced, and knew to be true didn't match up with what the Bible said was supposed to be true. I started having questions and although deep in my mind I was starting to have doubts about the veracity of the Bible, I repressed them. Repressed them to the point of depression, anxiety, anger, etc.

One morning, I woke up exhausted after hours of sleep. I had been dreaming that I had gone to hell for my blasphemy and was tormented forever. That was it. I was done lying to myself and to god. If he existed, I thought, he already knows I have doubts and questions. In fact, he created me this way to be inquisitive, questioning, and skeptic. So, why try to hide my feelings from someone who can see right through me?

I started questioning, exploring, visited numerous churches and temples. First, I stayed close to my Catholic roots in Pentecostals. I attended Lutheran, Nondenominational, Southern Baptist, and Church of Christ churches. I stayed in each about 5 to 9 months, except for the Nondenominational. I stayed there for about a year and a half.
Everyone treated me stupendously and they NEVER ONCE pressured me into getting saved or anything even though they knew I was losing faith. Beautiful people and wonderful times.

During all this, I prayed, cried, prayed, and begged for a sign from god. Nothing ever came. Not so much as a warm feeling or nice thought. Nothing. Christianity had nothing for me. I called myself agnostic.

I then started expanding to Baha'i, Jewish, and Buddhist temples in Dallas. Nothing. Buddhist was nice on the meditative aspect but nothing I felt was transcendental. I called myself atheist.

After much studying, reading, reread the Bible a second time (first time was in Catechism for my First Communion,) I started exploring religions in a more open way. I then called myself Agnostic Atheist Humanist.

To this day, I don't regret my decision. I was made happier as my cognitive dissonance, from which I obviously suffered, dissipated. I realized how important and beautiful life, the universe and all within it was. Everything made much more sense and being able to question everything (including science and religion) has only increased my knowledge and understanding of the universe.

Don't be afraid to be open about your questions and doubts. Your god already knows how you feel and you can't deceive him. If he's wise, just, and loving, he'll understand how and why you've arrived at that point. Be true to your god and to yourself.

Thank you for sharing. Your journey is similar to many. Comedienne Julia Sweeney's conversion is on youtube. Very honest and transparent as well.

IMO, creationism is the number one reason christians lose their faith. When they've been spoon fed lies as children, then actually become aware of the facts, they become angry and reject religion all together. Evangelicals would do well to accept ToE as God's method of choice (like they eventually did with heliocentrism), and publicly castigate the capitalistic creos.

Either that or practice Gould's notion of NOMA.

 

[Assyrian]

The poetic meanings and nuances of a word usually add insight and light to the particulae use of a word. One cannot take that to an extereme, and try to wave away what is actually being said. That is doing violence to the text.

The bible has talking trees, Israelites flying eagles, seven headed monsters and a Lord who told us he was a door, bread, a grapevine and a shepherd. These are not nuances.

It is. Far as I can tell. So?

If you think the earth might actually be fixed in place, why not simply take the geocentric scriptures at face value? Why not go the whole hog and preach a flat earth?

At the moment we see physical movement, being in this physical only state, it has to work that way. Can you prove to me that the earth moved in creation week? I notice that the spirit of God moved, and hovered. Not sure about the earth. Not sure it will orbit in the new heaven state either. Maybe the universe will move around us? Or maybe God will take the whole planet on a cruise around the universe? Since the creator is moving here forever, it is the center. No doubt. Maybe the ancients actually know more than you. Imagine that. You do what? You look at the physical temporal state we are in, and the motions here, and assume that it is all there will be or was. Same old mistake. Better to just say you don't know.

Genesis describes God's creation of the heavens and the earth, unless you can come up with some evidence it has all been completely changed since then and Genesis is not actually describing God creating the heavens and the earth we see now, I see no reason to accept all your rather imaginative claims. There is nothing in scripture to support your claims and certainly nothing in science.

But the meaning of the verse and word 'moved' I already expounded upon. Do you think that the ancients were also dumb enough to think that a man was fixed to the earth, and didn't move!? No. That is being silly, and not wanting to get what is being conveyed.

Of course, people make decisions and commitments, not moving is a very common metaphor. Doesn't work so well with inanimate objects. There is nothing in the fixed earth verses that suggest they speaking anything other than literally, nothing that suggested to any commentator throughout church history before Copernicus that the literal interpretation was wrong.

I don't believe you, and already showed that it is impossible for that to be the case. Why harp on an obvious misunderstanding of the verse, as if it supports your same state religion?

I am trying to treat the text with honesty and integrity and look at what it is actually saying. You haven't shown any reason for the plain meaning to be impossible but simply made a bad analogy to metaphorical use of people being unmoved.

Of course the earth now orbits around the sun. But did it before the flood? How would we know? I am not sure. No more than I am sure that the present motions of a physical only universe will continue as is when this universe we know is forever no more!

Of course the bible does speak of the end of this universe and a new earth and heavens, but no reference to changing the motion of the universe at the time of the flood. Most of the geocentric and fixed earth verses are after the flood anyway.

Creation by God in a week makes perfect sense. To look to the so called spirit for a deeper meaning, that makes God an imbecile, and a liar is a foolish endeavor.

I see, suddenly the spirit you said reveals to us the deeper meaning behind the dead words is the 'so called spirit'. And what is it about creationism that leads people to call God a liar if he doesn't do everything their way?

In fact both a six day creation and fixed earth make perfect sense of the texts, the only difference is that it never occurred to anyone that the fixed earth passages were not literal before science told us the earth went round the sun. On the other hand while a six day creation made sense, so did a non literal interpretation, and there were plenty of scripture scholars throughout church history who thought it made even more sense than the literal interpretation.

While both fixed earth and six days interpretations make sense of the text, and you see no problem with the Spirit of God revealing the deeper meaning behind verses that describe a fixed earth, a deeper meaning to six days of creation some how makes God an imbecile and a liar. Odd double standards that. Making God a liar and imbecile seems to depend on which verses you think make sense, which seem to be simply based on which sciences you chose to accept.

 

[Assyrian]

This brings back memories of my loss of faith and I have a feeling a lot of you have or may be going through something similar.

Let me tell you a little boring story of my deconversion. It started when I learned more and more of our universe. The things I saw, experienced, and knew to be true didn't match up with what the Bible said was supposed to be true. I started having questions and although deep in my mind I was starting to have doubts about the veracity of the Bible, I repressed them. Repressed them to the point of depression, anxiety, anger, etc.

One morning, I woke up exhausted after hours of sleep. I had been dreaming that I had gone to hell for my blasphemy and was tormented forever. That was it. I was done lying to myself and to god. If he existed, I thought, he already knows I have doubts and questions. In fact, he created me this way to be inquisitive, questioning, and skeptic. So, why try to hide my feelings from someone who can see right through me?

I started questioning, exploring, visited numerous churches and temples. First, I stayed close to my Catholic roots in Pentecostals. I attended Lutheran, Nondenominational, Southern Baptist, and Church of Christ churches. I stayed in each about 5 to 9 months, except for the Nondenominational. I stayed there for about a year and a half.
Everyone treated me stupendously and they NEVER ONCE pressured me into getting saved or anything even though they knew I was losing faith. Beautiful people and wonderful times.

During all this, I prayed, cried, prayed, and begged for a sign from god. Nothing ever came. Not so much as a warm feeling or nice thought. Nothing. Christianity had nothing for me. I called myself agnostic.

I then started expanding to Baha'i, Jewish, and Buddhist temples in Dallas. Nothing. Buddhist was nice on the meditative aspect but nothing I felt was transcendental. I called myself atheist.

After much studying, reading, reread the Bible a second time (first time was in Catechism for my First Communion,) I started exploring religions in a more open way. I then called myself Agnostic Atheist Humanist.

To this day, I don't regret my decision. I was made happier as my cognitive dissonance, from which I obviously suffered, dissipated. I realized how important and beautiful life, the universe and all within it was. Everything made much more sense and being able to question everything (including science and religion) has only increased my knowledge and understanding of the universe.

Don't be afraid to be open about your questions and doubts. Your god already knows how you feel and you can't deceive him. If he's wise, just, and loving, he'll understand how and why you've arrived at that point. Be true to your god and to yourself.

Thank you for sharing that and I am sorry for the pain you have been put through.

 

[BRISH]

[quote

Anyway, is there a reason other than bible to think that people could not have evolved from non human ancestors?

I wonder what you mean by "worK in nature and on human bodies"? Care to elaborate a bit?

quote]


"work in nature and on human bodies"

---> wow, I didnt realize how creepy that sounded! I must have been tired.

I've just done and observed alot outdoors and I'm in the medical field. (that sounds better, eh?


Ummm..any other reason? You know, who are any of us to say where we originate really. I'll back step on that one for the time being because I think there are alot of things we will never know. I stand firm though that whatever came first whether it be the "chicken or the egg"...both had to have been created first. Therefore, a creator. BUT THATS JUST ME.

(LOVE the icons on here)

Have a great Friday!

 

[dad]

The bible has talking trees, Israelites flying eagles, seven headed monsters and a Lord who told us he was a door, bread, a grapevine and a shepherd. These are not nuances.

Talking trees? Where is that? News to me.
The eagles wings represent something real. Don't take one verse all alone and get hung up on it. Seek other verses, and places where the eagle is written. Same with the seven headed beast. It represents something real. Something over a given time. Jesus is the door. No getting around it. He leads from this place to a heavenly forever place. The spirit is required to comprehend the bible to any great extent. Otherwise you get all twisted up, and caught up on the smallest speed bumps, and never get anywhere.

If you think the earth might actually be fixed in place, why not simply take the geocentric scriptures at face value? Why not go the whole hog and preach a flat earth?

No. It is not now stationary. It is fixed, and immovable, though.

Genesis describes God's creation of the heavens and the earth, unless you can come up with some evidence it has all been completely changed since then and Genesis is not actually describing God creating the heavens and the earth we see now, I see no reason to accept all your rather imaginative claims. There is nothing in scripture to support your claims and certainly nothing in science.

The heavens and earth described, however are not our present ones as is. Light does not get from stars in a week. Planetary water and land masses cannot be separated without too much heat for life to be put here days later. Etc.

Of course, people make decisions and commitments, not moving is a very common metaphor. Doesn't work so well with inanimate objects. There is nothing in the fixed earth verses that suggest they speaking anything other than literally, nothing that suggested to any commentator throughout church history before Copernicus that the literal interpretation was wrong.

Man had not the science at the time to realize that we were in a different state! But now we can know. God was right all along.

I am trying to treat the text with honesty and integrity and look at what it is actually saying. You haven't shown any reason for the plain meaning to be impossible but simply made a bad analogy to metaphorical use of people being unmoved.

No. A good comparison, scripture to scripture. The word is used by God in different ways, and when we look at the big picture we begin to get a grasp.

Of course the bible does speak of the end of this universe and a new earth and heavens, but no reference to changing the motion of the universe at the time of the flood. Most of the geocentric and fixed earth verses are after the flood anyway.

The universe was not changed at the time of the flood. It was a century after as I reckon. There was a 120 year warning, and Peleg lived when the earth was split, or divided. Man's life spans grew short, and many things were different. It is clear. If you concede the future, then you are half way there. The future is the key to the past.

I see, suddenly the spirit you said reveals to us the deeper meaning behind the dead words is the 'so called spirit'. And what is it about creationism that leads people to call God a liar if he doesn't do everything their way?

No idea. I simply try to believe He did it His way. That way I can't go wrong, like the same state past religion.

In fact both a six day creation and fixed earth make perfect sense of the texts, the only difference is that it never occurred to anyone that the fixed earth passages were not literal before science told us the earth went round the sun. On the other hand while a six day creation made sense, so did a non literal interpretation, and there were plenty of scripture scholars throughout church history who thought it made even more sense than the literal interpretation.[/quote[ It was the advent of science that began to reveal the fact that the present is not as the past.

While both fixed earth and six days interpretations make sense of the text, and you see no problem with the Spirit of God revealing the deeper meaning behind verses that describe a fixed earth, a deeper meaning to six days of creation some how makes God an imbecile and a liar. Odd double standards that. Making God a liar and imbecile seems to depend on which verses you think make sense, which seem to be simply based on which sciences you chose to accept.

A deeper meaning is no longer needed. If I could not defeat the logic, and scope and reaches of science, I would look to some sort of rethinking the bible too. No need. Time to rethink science!!! God wins. Again.

 

[AV1611VET]

Talking trees? Where is that? News to me.

I think he's talking about this:

And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you.
8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.

Can you believe that?

I just saw someone recently use a dream that Nebuchadnezzar had to say the Bible was talking about flat earth.

This is the kind of stuff we're up against, bro --- I hope you're praying.

 

[dad]

If A = A, then A = A. That's a meaningless and useless statement. It seems that we've reached the real conclusion of this exercise: A word can have many meanings and which one you choose depends on your prior beliefs and convictions. Proof of this is the many interpretations of the Bible even within Christianity, within Christian sects, and even within Churches. Everyone thinks they know the true meaning and everyone else is wrong.

The funny thing is that what each person wishes to gain from the pages of the Bible says more about the individual reader than of God or even the original writers.

All that from A =A?

If God uses a word in many ways, then we can look at them all, and get a balance, not of what we want it to mean, but of what is being said. In the case of moved, it is used in a sense that one's life, or faith will not be destroyed. If we apply it to the earth, it to will never be moved. Nothing to do with physical movement! That is why the spirit is needed, it isn't all about the physical.

 

[sandwiches]

No. It is not now stationary. It is fixed, and immovable, though.

I'm sure that made sense in your head but you might want to say it aloud. You just said the following: "The earth is not immobile or set on a course (stationary). It is immobile (fixed and immovable.)" That is the same as saying: "The earth is mobile. It is immobile."

Earlier you equivocated "immovable" with "indestructible," "unchangeable," or "unalterable" but now it's "fixed" as well. Fixed on to what? Or does "fixed" also mean something that it doesn't

So, which is it? Is "immovable" and "fixed" talking about actual movement or is this also metaphor for something else, as earlier?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sure that made sense in your head but you might want to say it aloud. You just said the following: "The earth is not immobile or set on a course (stationary). It is immobile (fixed and immovable.)" That is the same as saying: "The earth is mobile. It is immobile."

Earlier you equivocated "immovable" with "indestructible," "unchangeable," or "unalterable" but now it's "fixed" as well. Fixed on to what? Or does "fixed" also mean something that it doesn't

So, which is it? Is "immovable" and "fixed" talking about actual movement or is this also metaphor for something else, as earlier?

I really wouldn't get so hung-up on Hebrew poetry that you forget what sunrise is.

 

[sandwiches]

All that from A =A?

If God uses a word in many ways, then we can look at them all, and get a balance, not of what we want it to mean, but of what is being said. In the case of moved, it is used in a sense that one's life, or faith will not be destroyed. If we apply it to the earth, it to will never be moved. Nothing to do with physical movement! That is why the spirit is needed, it isn't all about the physical.

You said "If it means what it means...then it means what it means." Same as saying "If A=A then A=A." Both meaningless statements.

Sure, "if it means what it means...it means what it means" That's a bif IF. So, do you know what it means? If so, how?

 

[dad]

I'm sure that made sense in your head but you might want to say it aloud. You just said the following: "The earth is not immobile or set on a course (stationary). It is immobile (fixed and immovable.)" That is the same as saying: "The earth is mobile. It is immobile."

Earlier you equivocated "immovable" with "indestructible," "unchangeable," or "unalterable" but now it's "fixed" as well. Fixed on to what? Or does "fixed" also mean something that it doesn't

So, which is it? Is "immovable" and "fixed" talking about actual movement or is this also metaphor for something else, as earlier?

The eternal nature of the earth will never be moved. It is set. Fixed. Like our salvation. We shall not be moved. Yet the earth (at least in this universe state) will continue to move, as will you and I.

 

[sandwiches]

I really wouldn't get so hung-up on Hebrew poetry that you forget what sunrise is.

So, it's poetry. How do you distinguish between what's to be taken literally and what's to be taken as allegory or metaphor?

 

[sandwiches]

The eternal nature of the earth will never be moved. It is set. Fixed. Like our salvation. We shall not be moved. Yet the earth (at least in this universe state) will continue to move, as will you and I.

This sounds like blasphemy. You're adding to the Bible. Nowhere does it say that "The eternal nature of the earth will never be moved." If I'm wrong please point me to that passage.

 

[dad]

You said "If it means what it means...then it means what it means." Same as saying "If A=A then A=A." Both meaningless statements.

Sure, "if it means what it means...it means what it means" That's a bif IF. So, do you know what it means? If so, how?

Yes, that depends on what is says where and when. The account of creation means what it means. The flood means what it means. The new heavens mean what it means. The fact that believers, or the earth will never be moved, means that they will continue on in their place as God promised.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, it's poetry. How do you distinguish between what's to be taken literally and what's to be taken as allegory or metaphor?

It comes with study:

1. Read the context.
2. Study parallel verses that speak on the same topic.
3. See what others have to say about the same passage.
4. Ask God to help you rightly divide the Word of Truth.
5. Study, study, study.

 

[sandwiches]

It comes with study:

1. Read the context.
2. Study parallel verses that speak on the same topic.
3. See what others have to say about the same passage.
4. Ask God to help you rightly divide the Word of Truth.
5. Study, study, study.

Is number 4 necessary?

 

[dad]

This sounds like blasphemy. You're adding to the Bible. Nowhere does it say that "The eternal nature of the earth will never be moved." If I'm wrong please point me to that passage.

Ps 66:9 - Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved. This means that we will not be moved from faith in God, and life. It does not mean our feet will not move.

The earth is forever, yes. That is clear from many passages. God is moving here. If you doubt that the earth id forever, I can give some verses.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is number 4 necessary?

No, but if you can't get your problem resolved, then I would most definitely take it to the Author, Himself.

 

[dad]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. The covenant was created to destroy all humans and mankind its very self. Luckily Jesus Chief, the Wal-mart brand Super soilder and his Pet Raven "Arbiter" scoured the galaxy in their 1978 BMW looking for a destination. To end the war forever.

They first arrived on earth, a peace ful planet where humans and dinosaurs enjoyed teh game of Chess, where the humans would stab the dinosaurs with huge hammers and light them on fire for "bonus points"

Jesus Chief and "Arbiter" noticed that the people all read something called "The Bible" and worshipped this "God", and devoted money and time to his being, and his reaction was:

W T F


He instantly threw plasma grenades and dynomite onto every thing in site, and pulled off a wicked awesome headshot on Obama (the world's enemy) using his 1337 skills and MLG (mother loving greatness) to wipe out all the dinosaurs, and 73 percent of the black people. (he later used a weapon called "AIDS" to dispatch the rest)

He left Earth feeling satisfied, and started to right a journal entitled "Halo", because he always wanted one to replace the devil horns growing out of his head. This is the reason why he wears a helmet at all times, and to protect him from evil.

The "Covenant" were an off-brand conglomerate company designed to destroy Wal-mart, and light da Earf on fire. They invaded Jesus's's 's headquarters in Jerusalem, Iowa and sent 12 of their "disciples" to infiltrate his fortress.

Jesus held a hearing dat night in which he called "Teh last Suppah" in which he announced his love for Desperate Housewives, cut his arm off and had people drink the blood from it, and ripped off the skin from his severed arm, and had people eat it like bread. (This was a time called the 60s, where many people fell pray to crack/cocaine/pot/weed/dope/smack/meth/jesus juice/drugs. Jesus, fell prey to all of them)

When the suppah was ended, the meanest disciple was like "Dud3 w3 shuld ttly h4ng t4t dud3 on t3h b1g Kr0zz we f0und lst n1ght." and he called in his Mafia buddies to make it so. But Jesus, had better plans. He sent "Arbiter" up to the big Walmart in the sky and had him make a new Jesus Chief, v. 1.9241.7 Using ONLY cheap, mexican labor without healthcare or union benefits.



After he returned, he died shortly thereafter because of the cheap way he was manufactured in China by mexicans. He published the journal of his travels "Halo" and sold it to a massive company in Redmond, Washingtub.
And now, every night kids pray to him over Xbox live in their own special way
Screaming profanities at anyone they can.

How could anyone tell that story was from an atheist?