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Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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Standing Up

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Naturally, Rome continued its propaganda against the Easter of the 14th Nisan. A Roman priest, Blastus, who sought to establish the Asiatic custom at Rome, was excommunicated. Irenæus disputed with him; the usage was not forbidden by apocryphal documents. The Roman practice gained day by day.
The question was not determined except by the Council of Nicæa. From thenceforth it was considered heretical to follow the tradition of John, Philip, Polycarp, and Melito. It happened as it had happened so many times. The defenders of the ancient tradition found themselves by their fidelity put outside the Church, and were no more than heretics, the quartodecimans.

History of the Origins of Christianity. Book VII. Marcus-Aurelius. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I assume you love the truth. Am I wrong?
Only the Satan loves lies........Give me Truth or give me Death :D

2 Thess 2:9 Whom is the Parousia according to in-working of the Satan/Adversary in all power and signs and miracles of falsehood.
10 and in all deceitfulness of in-justice to the ones-being-destroyed, instead of which the Love of the Truth not they receive into them to be saved,
11 and thru this is sending them, the God, an in-working of-deception, into the to believe them to the Lie/Falsehood.
12 that they may be being judged all the ones not believing to the Truth, but delighting in the injustice
 
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Standing Up

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I love Truth and I love discussing the Truth with people who are civil and reasonable.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against against us. I forgive you. I am called to it. I ask forgiveness from our Father whom I offend each and every day. So I must forgive you too. And I do. Really - I do.

However...that doesn't mean I am at all convinced you even understand the nature of your offense, nor have you even apologized for it (although I am grateful you changed it). This does not bode well for the possibility of having a fruitful discussion. It tells me that you are likely at a place that is so anti-thetical to Catholicism that real dialog will be difficult at best.

God's Peace to you,

NewMan

My apologies for putting up a stumbling block. I have changed it.
 
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Standing Up

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Originally Posted by Standing Up
Shameless bump.

Anyone? What is the assumption if the Quartodecimans say Christ died on the 14th and Rome says Christ rose on Sunday?
Originally Posted by NewMan99
Stop playing games. I have no clue what you are getting at. Just say it.
Again, anyone?

Died on the 14th, rose on the third day, according to the Quartodecimans. Rose on Sunday, according to Rome. What is the assumption? The 14th is a ?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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In case nobody noticed it - I have a zero tolerance policy toward words like "Romish, Romanist, Popish, Papist" etc...if you ever want to get me out of any given conversation - just throw those words around. And then you can have fun all by yourselves. And if you are surprised that a Catholic would be HIGHLY offended by those words, then you really need to get out of your own little world and understand that there really are words that hurt others. People of color don't like the "n" word, and gay people don't like being called the "f-got" word, and so on. Come on people - I am not being unreasonably hyper-sensitive here...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that there are CHARITIBLE ways of communicating without using terms that offend others.


Some of MY thoughts....


1. See post 467, 473, 474


2. I think that offense can be taken where obviously none is implied. Remember that Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist - all these were originally terms of derision. Even Protestant was, in many cases, an early term of derision for those excommunicated from The Catholic Church. Why, as one who is not registered in a parish of your ____________, I CAN find it offensive that you call me a non-catholic (which means non-Christian) but I know what you mean and that you don't mean it as an offense, thus while I'd have CAUSE to be offended, I guess, I find such inappropriate. Even when Protestant is aimed at me, hey, I never protested anything - and still don't! I regard your ___________ as valid, good and hold it in very high esteem; I regard it, its ministers and ministries as valid and good; I regard nothing it officially teaches as unbiblical or heretical; I regard all in it as my FULL, UNseparated and EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ in every sense; and I pray DAILY and personally and specifically for God's rich blessings to it, its ministers and its Holy Father. When a Catholic can say the same thing about me and my ___________, then we can talk about "offense" and who is being embracing and who is being excluding.

3. I know of least one Orthodox poster, quite active here, who refers to your _________________ as "Rome." And he insists that no Catholic has ever in his life been the least bit offended by that. Well, Rome is the same word as two of the things you say YOU are offended by. And how can you defend all the things you said are true about the Papacy and be offended by legit English varients of that word?

4. Inter____________ talks are NOT easy! It takes a LOT of work, clarity and patience!!!! A LOT. And sometimes it takes laying aside hyper-sensitivities. You know, most of the world knows your _____________ as "The Roman Catholic Church." And, friend and respected brother, there's no offense meant or implied. So none should be taken.


Let's see if we can get back to the topic, when is the Papacy (NO OFFENSE MEANT BY THAT!) of your _____________________.



.
 
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NewMan99

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CJ,

If a person doesn't know that the words "Romish" "Romanist" "Popish" etc... are hightly offensive to ALL Catholics (not just me) - then this person has NO BUSINESS talking to Catholics. They need to do their homework first.

Look - do yourself a favor...go to ANY rabid anti-Catholic website you want. There are plenty to choose from. By "rabid" I mean the frothing-at-the-mouth variety. Go to Jack Chick. Dave Hunt. Robert Zins. You know the list. Go there and see how often those words are used. And in what context. They are used as weapons, with a sneer on their lips.

Now...go to ANY Catholic site. ANY of them. Look for those words. You will not find them used once in any context. Ever.

So doesn't the absence of those words in Catholic mediums tell you something? This is COMMON knowledge and it is shocking to me that you would be surprised by it.

Even Protestant was, in many cases, an early term of derision for those excommunicated from The Catholic Church.

The difference here is that words like "Romish" are considered as a pejoritive by ALL Catholics in today's world. If someone tells me that they are not Protestant or they don't like to be called the term, I don't argue with them (like you are with me) or presume to tell them that they are being too thin-skinned (like you are with me). I would accept their wishes and apologize (which Standing Up did - to his credit).

Why, as one who is not registered in a parish of your ____________, I CAN find it offensive that you call me a non-catholic (which means non-Christian)

Nonsense - it does not mean non-Christian. There you go again - putting words in my mouth and arguing against it.

3. I know of least one Orthodox poster, quite active here, who refers to your _________________ as "Rome." And he insists that no Catholic has ever in his life been the least bit offended by that.

Well of course not. The word Rome or Roman is not offensive. Did I ever say that it was?

I was talking about Romish, Romanist, Popish, etc...

Well, Rome is the same word as two of the things you say YOU are offended by.

No they are not. They are insulting words and if you don't grasp that simple concept, then you have a lot to learn.

And how can you defend all the things you said are true about the Papacy and be offended by legit English varients of that word?

And the "n" word is a legit word too - but that doesn't make it okie-dokie to use.

It takes a LOT of work, clarity and patience!!!! A LOT. And sometimes it takes laying aside hyper-sensitivities.

You know what, CJ, I am far more upset with you than I was with Standing Up. At least he had the decency to accept my words, retract them, and apologize. You, on the other hand, presume to tell me what Catholics should or should not find offensive. You remind me of a white adult patting an adult man of color on the head saying, "Boy, there is no reason to be mad about being called a 'n' word...it is a legit word".

Is a person of color being "hyper-sensitive" when they are offended by racial slurs? I am not being hyper-sensitive. You are lacking ALL sensitivity. Rather than being humble, CJ, and turning this into a learning moment...to better understand how others feel - you instead imprudently and unwisely presume to defend the indefensible.

You know, most of the world knows your _____________ as "The Roman Catholic Church." And, friend and respected brother, there's no offense meant or implied. So none should be taken.

And if that was the term that was used I would not have been offended. But THAT was not the term that was used. Instead another word was used - a word that is unacceptable to use in the company of Catholics.

Let's see if we can get back to the topic, when is the Papacy (NO OFFENSE MEANT BY THAT!) of your _____________________.

Papacy is not an offensive word. Good grief, CJ. Why can't you even understand the most simple of things? You are smarter than that - you are better. Why don't you just listen to what others tell you? The biggest difficulty with communicating with you is that you are not a very good listener. You are smart - but you don't listen.
 
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D'Ann

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Greetings. As much as I am afraid to post almost anything on GT without getting reported, you should take a gander at the Roman Catholicism board at the CARM forum.
GT is like a tame kitten compared to some of the rabid anti-catholicism stuff I see on there and one reason I quit posting on there. It is practically no holds barred..........:wave:

Roman Catholicism - CARM.ORG - Christian Discussion Forums
Roman Catholicism

I completely agree. I've lurked on CARM... praying for CARM... CF is more Christlike and better than CARM, because it is Ecumenical and CF does strive to sincerely be more like Christ... and isn't that what we all should be doing?

Why use slur words to hurt one another? If a word offends a person... like the word Romish...etc... why use it? And then argue with the person who is offended and telling them... oh, you shouldn't be offended... blah blah blah... the bottom line is that those slur words are offensive and out of respect for each other I would hope that we all would avoid using words or slur words that truly do offend others...

I know that I'm NewMan99's wife and that probably kinda disqualifies me, but no matter who my husband may be, I do find those words offensive and I pray that we all will find a way to respect each other enough to at least not use offensive slurs against or towards each other.

God's peace,

Debbie
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I completely agree. I've lurked on CARM... praying for CARM... CF is more Christlike and better than CARM, because it is Ecumenical and CF does strive to sincerely be more like Christ... and isn't that what we all should be doing?

Why use slur words to hurt one another? If a word offends a person... like the word Romish...etc... why use it? And then argue with the person who is offended and telling them... oh, you shouldn't be offended... blah blah blah... the bottom line is that those slur words are offensive and out of respect for each other I would hope that we all would avoid using words or slur words that truly do offend others...

I know that I'm NewMan99's wife and that probably kinda disqualifies me, but no matter who my husband may be, I do find those words offensive and I pray that we all will find a way to respect each other enough to at least not use offensive slurs against or towards each other.

God's peace,

Debbie
Thank u D'Ann. I removed my post as I thought it may have been wrong to post a link to another forum.
Not sure why that forum is like that and I have no intention of posting on there again.

I actually joined it when I was given a short "vacation" from CF awhile back and I might have brought back a little of what was on there back to CF......Forgive me :blush:
 
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NewMan99

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Thank u D'Ann. I removed my post as I thought it may have been wrong to post a link to another forum.
Not sure why that forum is like that and I have no intention of posting on there again.

I actually joined it when I was given a short "vacation" from CF awhile back and I might have brought back a little of what was on there back to CF......Forgive me :blush:

I am more than a little familiar with CARM and its founder, Matt Slick. I have always believed that CF, despite its flaws and challenges, is miles better. It is my hope CF stays true to its stated ecumenical vision. I suspect that CARM will remain in the muck.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I am more than a little familiar with CARM and its founder, Matt Slick. I have always believed that CF, despite its flaws and challenges, is miles better. It is my hope CF stays true to its stated ecumenical vision. I suspect that CARM will remain in the muck.
Well, at the time, I felt another forum couldn't be any worst than CF, especially the GT board and I swore I wasn't going to come back to CF. But I have some very close friends here and they talked me into coming back.

Don't know how much longer I will be around though, as I am still viewed by some as a "Catholic hater".

Anywho, this thread inspired me to return.....:wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7315815/#post49586152
The LLOJ prayer thread
 
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D'Ann

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I am glad LLOJ that you are here. I don't view you as a Catholic hater. The bottomline is that in some ways, we just don't agree and that is okay. If we all agreed, we all would be the same faith. The part about GT that I do like and enjoy is the opportunity to learn about other faiths and also it's a chance to get to know my fellow brothers and sisters and there have been many times in other CF forums that we all stood together on the same side because underneath, there really is more that unites us as one in Christ, then divides us. Of course, we have our differences and those differences should always be respected and discussed and honored... but it's also nice to know that if I'm in another CF forum like the moral/ethic forum, I know that many of our brothers and sisters in Christ and I agree as one when it comes to many morals/ethics opinions and beliefs... and that comforts me and gives me hope.
 
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D'Ann

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I am getting to the point of giving up the message boards all-together. I keep coming back here and hoping. However, I know there are still problems that I am aware of some members including moderators to leave.

I'm glad that you are still here. There are times that I think all of us have felt like walking away, but at the same time, we know that this site does make a positive difference despite the negativity that may happen on occasion.
 
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Peaceful Dove

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I completely agree. I've lurked on CARM... praying for CARM... CF is more Christlike and better than CARM, because it is Ecumenical and CF does strive to sincerely be more like Christ... and isn't that what we all should be doing?

Why use slur words to hurt one another? If a word offends a person... like the word Romish...etc... why use it? And then argue with the person who is offended and telling them... oh, you shouldn't be offended... blah blah blah... the bottom line is that those slur words are offensive and out of respect for each other I would hope that we all would avoid using words or slur words that truly do offend others...

I know that I'm NewMan99's wife and that probably kinda disqualifies me, but no matter who my husband may be, I do find those words offensive and I pray that we all will find a way to respect each other enough to at least not use offensive slurs against or towards each other.

God's peace,

Debbie
Well Debbie, I didn't know that you are NewMan99's wife. That is total news to me.
But I am very happy to know it now.
Hug that man of yours for me, please. And tell him to read all his messages.
 
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Standing Up

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If anyone cares, and in case folks missed this, I also said this (post 546):

"That is your history (RCC, EO, OO, Assyr, Angl, P), not mine; that is your claim, not mine."

I am sorry for putting up a stumbling block, it prevented you from responding to the rest of the post and carrying forth the conversation. That was wrong. Had I known it was offensive to you, I wouldn't have used it. Reject the truth if you (the universal you) want, but not because of me.

I meant no harm, but in case this part is not clear, my stance is that all the Churches trace their lineage back to Nicea. I am not RCC, EO, OO, Assy, Angl, P, or any Restorationist (LDS, JW, SDA, CoC). I am simply a Christian.

Nicea did establish the Creed (no problem), but they also, as I said, declared heretical the only verifiable, universally agreed upon Apostolic line, the Quartodecimans. In 341ad they excommunicated those same Apostles who passed it to the Bishops (Melito, Polycarp, Sagaris, etc).

So, want unity? We need to go back and look at what happened to lead us to where we are today.

Again, liturgical issue? not in the slightest.
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=D'Ann; I completely agree. I've lurked on CARM... praying for CARM... CF is more Christlike and better than CARM, because it is Ecumenical and CF does strive to sincerely be more like Christ... and isn't that what we all should be doing?
Wow, cool. That's a relief to hear once in a blue moon.

Why use slur words to hurt one another?
Occaisionaly, something like "brood of vipers" is appropriate, but i agree that it should be the exception, not the rule.
If a word offends a person... like the word Romish...etc... why use it?
Because as Christians were are able to forgive, especialy when we know it is easier, cheaper, & healthier to forgive each other when both our natures & languages are themselves the cause of our stumbling.

I know that I'm NewMan99's wife
Wow, cool. That's neat you guys share the forum. My wife goes to Gunbroker's.com (don't mess with her, lol)
and that probably kinda disqualifies me, but no matter who my husband may be, I do find those words offensive and I pray that we all will find a way to respect each other enough to at least not use offensive slurs against or towards each other.
I remember being in 2nd grade & thinking, "If only I was Italian like Charlie Navarro, the priests & nuns would have that special affection they show him, for me too." LOL.
Even "Protestant" is offensive in a sense, but what am I gonna do? Make everyone stop using it?

Forgiveness allows me some liesure time.;)
 
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racer

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CJ,

If a person doesn't know that the words "Romish" "Romanist" "Popish" etc... are hightly offensive to ALL Catholics (not just me) - then this person has NO BUSINESS talking to Catholics.
1. Why do those terms offend you?
2. As a Catholic who is so easily offended, who asserts that a particular group of people should not converse with Catholics, what business do you have in this forum conversing with a group of people your faith has anathematized, and at best refers to us as "separated bretheren?" And, I'm sure you wouldn't understand why a person not of your faith would be offended by being labeled "Protestant" instead of their particular faith like Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran.
They need to do their homework first.
I have my beliefs and opinions as do you, sorry if you find them offensive. Oh, and BTW, I've done my homework, lot's and lot's of it.
Look - do yourself a favor...go to ANY rabid anti-Catholic website you want. There are plenty to choose from. By "rabid" I mean the frothing-at-the-mouth variety. Go to Jack Chick. Dave Hunt. Robert Zins. You know the list. Go there and see how often those words are used. And in what context. They are used as weapons, with a sneer on their lips.
You know, if that's where we wanted to be, that's where we'd be. If that was the type of conversing we wanted to participate in, that's where we'd be.
Now...go to ANY Catholic site. ANY of them. Look for those words. You will not find them used once in any context. Ever.
Have you ever visited OBOB? Because, we are often mocked and scoffed at there. (Or there was a day. Don't know about now. I quit visiting the forum when my blood pressure started shooting up.)
The difference here is that words like "Romish" are considered as a pejoritive by ALL Catholics in today's world.
Why? :confused:
If someone tells me that they are not Protestant or they don't like to be called the term, I don't argue with them (like you are with me) or presume to tell them that they are being too thin-skinned (like you are with me).
So, then have you completely stopped using the term Protestant? If one is offended, then by your logic as you assert about yourself and the rest of the Catholic Church, all are most likely offended.

And, why in the world is the word "popish" offensive?
 
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