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Some of your fellow Calvinists have accused us of meriting salvation simply because we believe in freedom of choice. I think "weather man chooses" is also relevant to the debate; do we freely choose or are we programmed to choose.The debate isn't on whether man chooses, but why man chooses.
All that you have said is pointless. It has no relevance to my post at all. You need to get rid of that Calvinist bible.I don't think a more sub-Biblical analogy could have been thought up... well, maybe Norman Geisler's "Farmer" analogy... but this one is still pretty bad.
First of all, comparing God to a man with two "friends" is unbiblical because men are enemies of God, not friends. Strike one.
Secondly, by depicting God "buying food items" in order to prepare the dinner implies that God is looking to something outside of Himself that determines how He will be able to make this "dinner of appreciation" rather than God having to appease His wrath against His two "friends" for their sin against Him. Strike two.
Thirdly, you once again assume that the "friends" of the man [God] actually want to go to this dinner. Biblically, the men would want nothing to do with the dinner at all because they are enemies of the person who prepared it and they hate him. Strike three.
Well, I could go on about how sub-Biblical this analogy is, but I think I've made my point.
But mine does "tell me" that some do choose to accept the invitation while others choose not to accept. I think you are hung up on certain hyperboles, and by misinterpreting these hyperboles you are coming to conclusions which are not biblically accurate.
All that you have said is pointless. It has no relevance to my post at all. You need to get rid of that Calvinist bible.
...
The OP ask if God can save whom He wants. The answer to that is yes but He does not. Why? Because He has given man the freedom to choose what God wants but some men choose not to. So therefore He does not save whom He wants because not all men want what He wants.
Yes, some choose and some don't. But they only reason they do so is because it has been granted to them (Phil. 1:29) and because Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Heb. 12:2). Why is this necessary? Because no on seeks for God (Rom. 3:11) and because men do not and cannot submit to God (Rom. 8:6-8).
Originally Posted by Wizzer
But mine does "tell me" that some do choose to accept the invitation while others choose not to accept. I think you are hung up on certain hyperboles, and by misinterpreting these hyperboles you are coming to conclusions which are not biblically accurate.You are taking certain hyperboles too literally. If no one seeks after God, then no one seeks after God; this would mean all men for all time. Since not all are forever condemned, then some do seek after God. So even you are not being true to a strickly literal interpretation, since you have the elect seeking after God.
You need to recognise hyperbole when it is used. Paul puts limits (restrictions) upon the quote you gave from Romans 3. In other words, he explained the meaning he intended for his hyperbole to have. You have missed his explanation and have instead interpreted his hyperbole literally.
It's not about men being God's friend; it's about God being man's friend. Do you dispute that?Your analogy was sub-Biblical at best and heresy at worst.
Men are not "friends" of God, they are enemies that hate him. This isn't just Calvinism, it is Biblical.
I agree. But He would also like to save everybody else. As it says in 1 Tim 2:3-6,Actually, I believe God does save the people He intends to save. As it says in Matthew 1:21, "He will save His people frim their sins."
I agree. But He would also like to save everybody else. As it says in 1 Tim 2:3-6,
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all...
Is this a trick question? Of course He does.Are you saying that God loves every single individual person?
Is this a trick question? Of course He does.
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies...that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good...If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?...Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect...Matt 5:43-48.
So you do agree that "He desires that all come to the knowledge of truth" and not just the elect. My point exactly.*sigh*
This is where we see different levels of desire and will in God. He desires that all come to the knowledge of truth, but God is the one who grants repentance leading to the knowledge of truth.
God grants repentance by convicting the heart of the need to repent, but the man with the convicted heart still has to choose to act upon that conviction. Just because He is convicted does not mean he will repent.2 Tim. 2:24-26
24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
So you do agree that "He desires that all come to the knowledge of truth" and not just the elect. My point exactly.
God grants repentance by convicting the heart of the need to repent, but the man with the convicted heart still has to choose to act upon that conviction. Just because He is convicted does not mean he will repent.
We often choose not to do what we are convince we should do. So just because God grants us repentance does not mean we will act upon it. We can choose to ignore what God has granted.
If you take off your Calvinist glasses you will see it.This passage doesn't say that God loves everyone. It says that we should love our enemies. Where does it say that God loves everyone here?
No, not even Esau. He hated what Esau did but He loved Esau dearly, He just wished Esau had made a better decision, the same wish He has for all sinners.Let me ask you another question: Does God hate anybody?
If you take off your Calvinist glasses you will see it.
No, not even Esau. He hated what Esau did but He loved Esau dearly, He just wished Esau had made a better decision, the same wish He has for all sinners.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked ? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?...Ezek 18:23.
The text does not say "types of men", it says "all men".Somehow I get a feeling that you still have no idea what I mean by that...
When I say different levels of desire, I mean that God is the one who limits His desire from coming to place. I also acknowledge the fact that God wants all men to come to repentance in the sense of all types of men, not just Jews, but also Gentiles. We see this talk all over the NT... but that never seems to matter to some folks...
He did not say "actually". Repentance does lead to the knowledge of the truth but only for those who do repent. There are some that will not repent even though repentance may be granted.OK, way to make the verse say exactly what it doesn't say. It says that God "grants repentance leading to the knowledge of truth." If it doesn't always lead to the knowledge of truth, then why did Paul say that the repentance actually leads to the knowledge of truth?
That's not my belief at all. That's what you are accusing me of.Your view of God is too human if you honestly think that His desire can be thwarted by man. The difference between you and I is that God is the one who limits it; you believe that the fallen creature man causes God's desire to not come to pass.
Amazing...
Take off your Calvinist glasses and you will see it. Keep them on and you will remain blind.You have not produced any passage saying that God loves every single person.
I guess to you this means that God hates people for no reason at all since Esau had done no wrong and was not even born; He was born to be hated by God for no reason.Umm... you have probably forgotten v. 11 of Romans 9. Before they had done anything good or bad, God hated Esau.
Calvinism will always take scriptures like these and make a mess of them. Don't just go by what you see, go by what is meant. It is clear you do not understand what is meant.Psalm 5:5
5The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
Psalm 11:5
5The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Lev. 20:23
23'Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.
Proverbs 6:16-19
16There are six things which the LORD hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Hosea 9:15
15All their evil is at Gilgal;
Indeed, I came to hate them there!
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of My house!
I will love them no more;
All their princes are rebels.
Romans 9:13
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
Do you follow the example of your god? Do you hate people just like he does?Sorry, but God does indeed hate people and He does not love everyone. You are believing in a god made in your own image, not the God of the Bible.