Can God save whom He wants?

[Doveaman]

There is no contradiction, the elect believe through grace as it pertains to their experiential salvation..

rom 5 is talking going to the throne of grace [in prayer and praise] by faith..

the romans 5 is speaking to the nature of heb 4:

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Acts 18:27-28: When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia...On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 18 is telling us that God in His grace helped those in Achaia to believe by convicting their hearts of His truth.

God in His grace convinces us by His Spirit that what He is saying to us is true. This is what it means by “ faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”...Rom 10:17. God convicts our hearts of the truth of His word when we hear it.

Acts 18 is about the spiritual conviction of our hearts which God by His Spirit enables us to have when we hear His word.

Rom 5:1-2: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Rom 5 is telling us that after we have come to believe by grace we have the responsibility to act upon that belief; we must respond to what we have come to believe by committing our lives to Christ in faith or we will not access the eternal benefits of the grace; we will not receive eternal life: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life...1 John 5:11-12.

It is as if you did me a wrong in the pass, and in the present, for some reason, you are now hungry and starving to death, and I in my grace toward you forgave you and gave you food to eat so that you may live.

In order for you to access the nutritional benefits of that food you must commit yourself in faith to eating it. If you do not commit yourself in faith to eating it you will not access its nutritional benefits and you will still starve to death despite of my grace.

In order for you to live and not die you must commit yourself in faith to eating that food which I gave to you by grace or you will die. Commitment in faith on your part to eating that food is required.

In order for us to live eternally and not die eternally we must commit ourselves in faith to eating the “bread of life” which God gave to us by grace or we will die. Commitment in faith on our part to eating the “bread of life” is required.

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life...This is the bread that came down from heaven...he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”...John 6:53-58.

Commitment in faith on our part to eating this spiritual “bread of life” is required or we will starve to death.

And it's not a forced commitment or a programmed commitment, it is a willing commitment that is based on free choice.

 

[beloved57]

Acts 18:27-28: When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia...On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 18 is telling us that God in His grace helped those in Achaia to believe by convicting their hearts of His truth.

God in His grace convinces us by His Spirit that what He is saying to us is true. This is what it means by “ faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”...Rom 10:17. God convicts our hearts of the truth of His word when we hear it.

Acts 18 is about the spiritual conviction of our hearts which God by His Spirit enables us to have when we hear His word.

Rom 5:1-2: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Rom 5 is telling us that after we have come to believe by grace we have the responsibility to act upon that belief; we must respond to what we have come to believe by committing our lives to Christ in faith or we will not access the eternal benefits of the grace; we will not receive eternal life: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life...1 John 5:11-12.

It is as if you did me a wrong in the pass, and in the present, for some reason, you are now hungry and starving to death, and I in my grace toward you forgave you and gave you food to eat so that you may live.

In order for you to access the nutritional benefits of that food you must commit yourself in faith to eating it. If you do not commit yourself in faith to eating it you will not access its nutritional benefits and you will still starve to death despite of my grace.

In order for to live and not die you must commit yourself in faith to eating that food which I gave to you by grace or you will die. Commitment in faith on your part to eating that food is required.

In order for us live eternally and not die eternally we must commit ourselves in faith to eating the “bread of life” which God gave to us by grace or we will die. Commitment in faith on our part to eating the “bread of life” is required.

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life...This is the bread that came down from heaven...he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”...John 6:53-58.

Commitment in faith on our part to eating this spiritual “bread of life” is required or we will starve to death.

And it's not a forced commitment or a programmed commitment, it is a willing commitment that is based on free choice.

You dont know what you talking about..believing comes by grace acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

 

[Doveaman]

Essentially, saved. Pure and simple. Why? Because those who are justified are also glorified. You cannot escape the conclusion.

I'm not playing your games. You can't escape the conclusion. Either you must believe that the chain is broken or you must deny that all are called in the same way.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin...None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered...he will die...

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die...Ezek 18:23-26.

A righteous man can die.

Once saved always saved is unscriptural.

 

[CmRoddy]

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin...None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered...he will die...

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die...Ezek 18:23-26.

A righteous man can die.

Once saved always saved is unscriptural.

*sigh*

You should interpret Scripture with Scripture and allow everything to speak. Those "righteous men" were not truly saved.

1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Edit: and you have yet to provide any counter exegesis to Rom. 8:30 yet you claim I'm wrong... right... whatever you say...

 

[Doveaman]

*sigh*

You should interpret Scripture with Scripture and allow everything to speak. Those "righteous men" were not truly saved.

1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Edit: and you have yet to provide any counter exegesis to Rom. 8:30 yet you claim I'm wrong... right... whatever you say...

Your understanding of Romans 8:30 is flawed, so you will never see yourself as wrong no matter what I provide.

 

[CmRoddy]

Your understanding of Romans 8:30 is flawed, so you will never see yourself a wrong no matter what I provide.

hahaha, whatever you say, bud.

All that are called are justified and all that are justified are glorified. As I said, either not all are called in the same way or you must believe in Universalism. Plain and simple.

 

[Doveaman]

hahaha, whatever you say, bud.

All that are called are justified and all that are justified are glorified. As I said, either not all are called in the same way or you must believe in Universalism. Plain and simple.

Romans 8:30 only refers to those who are predestined, not to anyone else. But this does not deny the fact that everyone else is also called: “For many are called, but few are chosen”...Matt 22:14.

The call to the "many" and the call to the "few" is the same call. The “few...chosen” are the ones that are predestined, but the same call still goes out to the “many”.

All this means is that only those who are predestined will respond to the call and be “chosen”. But everyone else, the “many”, has an equal opportunity to respond to the call as well. This is why “many” are called.

Why would God call the “many” if He knows they cannot respond? Is He playing games with them? Is He being silly?

 

[CmRoddy]

Romans 8:30 only refers to those who are predestined, not to anyone else. But this does not deny the fact that everyone else is also called: “For many are called, but few are chosen”...Matt 22:14.

The “few...chosen” are the ones that are predestined, but the call still goes out to the “many”.

All this means is that only those who are predestined will respond to the call and be “chosen”. But everyone else, the “many”, has an equal opportunity to respond to the call as well. This is why “many” are called.

Yea, exactly. The first "many are called" is one type of call and "few are chosen" is another type of call. All that are called in the second way are justified and glorified as Rom. 8:30 says.

You just proved my point. Congratulations.

Why would God call the “many” if He knows they cannot respond? Is He playing games with them? Is He being silly?

I don't know; I would ask Him. This is a prime example of you using human logic to try to "solve" a "problem" in the Bible.

 

[Doveaman]

Yea, exactly. The first "many are called" is one type of call and "few are chosen" is another type of call. All that are called in the second way are justified and glorified as Rom. 8:30 says.

You just proved my point. Congratulations.

No, I am not buying that.

Both calls are the same. It's one call that goes out to both the "many" and the "few"[FONT=&quot]: “[/FONT]For many are called, but few are chosen[FONT=&quot]”[/FONT]. The "few" that are "chosen" are from among the "many" that are called. When the single call goes out to the "many" only the "few...chosen" respond. It's one call, not two.

I don't know; I would ask Him. This is a prime example of you using human logic to try to "solve" a "problem" in the Bible.

So, you don't know? I told you you didn't. Now you finally admit it. There is a lot more you don't know.

And there is no problem in the Bible to be solved. It is your flawed belief that is the problem.

 

[CmRoddy]

No, I am not buying that.

Both calls are the same. It's one call that goes out to both the "many" and the "few"[FONT=&quot]: “[/FONT]For many are called, but few are chosen[FONT=&quot]”[/FONT]. The "few" that are "chosen" are from among the "many" that are called. When the single call goes out to the "many" only the "few...chosen" respond. It's one call, not two.

Um, first of all, if all are called the same way then all will be saved. Romans 8:30 has not been touched by you at all. It still stands. Secondly, God is faithful to those He calls and He makes sure that their sanctification comes to pass according to 1 Thess. 5:23-24. So again, either there is a different kind of call or they are all going to be saved.

And I find it amazing that you are using a verse that says "Many are called, but few are chosen" to go against Calvinism... Seriously? This does nothing but prove my point.

So, you don't know? I told you you didn't. Now you finally admit it. There is a lot more you don't know.

hahaha

Yea, using my ignorance of the inner working and will of God is such a good tactic...

 

[Doveaman]

Um, first of all, if all are called the same way then all will be saved. Romans 8:30 has not been touched by you at all. It still stands.

This is what Calvinism leads you to conclude. But this is not the case.

If I invite two people to dinner and only one respond, the same invitation still applies to the one that did not respond. One invitation, two different responses.

Secondly, God is faithful to those He calls and He makes sure that their sanctification comes to pass according to 1 Thess. 5:23-24. So again, either there is a different kind of call or they are all going to be saved.

1 Thess 5 is referring to those who respond to the call in faith. It speaks of God's faithfulness to those who remain faithful to that call, those "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"...1 Peter 1:5.

Our faith keeps us sanctified. Our faithfulness plays an integral part in our sanctification coming to pass. Without it we perish.

And I find it amazing that you are using a verse that says "Many are called, but few are chosen" to go against Calvinism... Seriously? This does nothing but prove my point.

The verse does not belong to Calvinism, it belongs to scripture which Calvinism is against.

hahaha

Yea, using my ignorance of the inner working and will of God is such a good tactic...

Your "ignorance" is a result of your flawed belief. It has nothing to do with God's inner workings or outer workings.

 

[CmRoddy]

This is what Calvinism leads you to conclude. But this is not the case.

If I invite two people to dinner and only one respond, the same invitation still applies to the one that did not respond. One invitation, two different responses.

You seem to think that when it says "chosen" it means the people invited are the ones making that decision to chose. In case you have noticed, the one sending the call is the one chosen. There is no grammatical reason to separate the two clauses into two separate people. The only reason you are doing so is because you must in order to keep your theology straight.

1 Thess 5 is referring to those who respond to the call in faith. It speaks of God's faithfulness to those who remain faithful to that call

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...1 Peter 1:5.

Our faith keeps us sanctified. Our faithfulness plays an integral part in our sanctification coming to pass. Without it we perish.

Wow, this is absolutely amazing. You are completely ignoring "by the power of God" in this passage! Why in the world would you do such a thing? It says that we are kept by God through faith. We are not kept by ourselves. Why would it say that we are kept by the power of God if we are keeping ourselves? What else is there for the power of God to keep??

Are you honestly suggesting that this is sound exegesis right now?

The verse does not belong to Calvinism, it belongs to scripture which Calvinism is against.

Right, whatever you say. You still haven't done anything with Romans 8:30. I'm still waiting to see how you twist that one.

Your "ignorance" is a result of your flawed belief. It has nothing to do with God's inner workings or outer workings.

Seriously? So are you really going to claim that with your belief you can know the inner workings of God? You do realize that there are a lot of things that Scripture never tells us and we should be careful not to go beyond what it says. The secret things belong to God; the revealed things belong to us according to Deut. 29:29.

As I said, this is a terrible and completely illogical tactic to use. I can only assume you are using it because you have run out of "good" arguments.

 

[Doveaman]

You seem to think that when it says "chosen" it means the people invited are the ones making that decision to chose.

That's not what I think at all. "Chosen" meaning that God chooses. But He chooses based on our response in faith.

In case you have noticed, the one sending the call is the one chosen.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

There is no grammatical reason to separate the two clauses into two separate people. The only reason you are doing so is because you must in order to keep your theology straight.

Your last statement here can also apply to your theology. You reason the way you do in order to keep your theology straight, including your twisting of Romans 8:30.

Wow, this is absolutely amazing. You are completely ignoring "by the power of God" in this passage! Why in the world would you do such a thing? It says that we are kept by God through faith. We are not kept by ourselves. Why would it say that we are kept by the power of God if we are keeping ourselves? What else is there for the power of God to keep??

Are you honestly suggesting that this is sound exegesis right now?

I don't think you can find any posts of me saying we keep ourselves. God keeps us. That is what I said in my last post. But He keeps us based on our faith; we are kept by His power as a result of our faith. This is what it means for us to live by faith; God in His grace gives us eternal life through our faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith...Eph 2:8.

Right, whatever you say. You still haven't done anything with Romans 8:30. I'm still waiting to see how you twist that one.

I already told you that you already have it twisted, so nothing I say will make a difference. Our views of predestination are different, so we will not see eye to eye on Romans 8:30.

Seriously? So are you really going to claim that with your belief you can know the inner workings of God? You do realize that there are a lot of things that Scripture never tells us and we should be careful not to go beyond what it says. The secret things belong to God; the revealed things belong to us according to Deut. 29:29.

I do agree that there are things that are secret and there are things that are revealed, but it is our flawed belief that prevents us from understanding the things that are revealed, so we call them "secrets" and "inner workings" as you are doing now.

As I said, this is a terrible and completely illogical tactic to use. I can only assume you are using it because you have run out of "good" arguments

I am using it because I genuinely believe that your Calvinist belief is flawed. There is nothing illogical about what I said, and there is no argument here.

 

[CmRoddy]

That's not what I think at all. "Chosen" meaning that God chooses. But He chooses based on our response in faith.

There is no such indication of this from this text.

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Your last statement here can also apply to your theology. You reason the way you do in order to keep your theology straight, including your twisting of Romans 8:30.

You know, you have some nerve of accusing me of twisting Rom. 8:30 when you haven't even touched that verse yet.

I don't think you can find any posts of me saying we keep ourselves. God keeps us. That is what I said in my last post. But He keeps us based on our faith; we are kept by His power as a result of our faith. This is what it means for us to live by faith; God in His grace gives us eternal life through our faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith...Eph 2:8.

First of all, the text does not say that God keeps us based on our faith. You are reading that into the text. What it says is that God keeps us through faith. Faith is the means that God uses to keep us. He is the one doing the keeping through faith, not us.

Secondly, Eph. 2:8 teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by our faith; it says we are saved by grace and faith, again, is the means that is used to manifest that salvation.

You are assuming a whole lot into these texts that it simply doesn't say.

I already told you that you already have it twisted, so nothing I say will make a difference. Our views of predestination are different, so we will not see eye to eye on Romans 8:30.

Amazing.

Rom. 8:30
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is a chain that is not broken and all the actions are done by God. There is no condition here for man to meet at all. Now, if you believe that predestination is based on foreknowledge and not the good pleasure of God's will (Eph. 1:5) and on God's choice in election (Rom. 9:11) and on His mercy alone that He gives to whom He wills (Rom. 9:15-16) then you are absolutely wrong. Nothing in man determines our salvation; it is all based on God's will.

Again, you have not commented at all on Rom. 8:30, and my point still stands.

I do agree that there are things that are secret and there are things that are revealed, but it is our flawed belief that prevents us from understanding the things that are revealed, so we call them "secrets" and "inner workings" as you are doing now.

No sir, I am simply allowing all of Scripture to speak without going beyond what it says with my preconceived assumptions, which is what you are doing now.

I am using it because I genuinely believe that your Calvinist belief is flawed. There is nothing illogical about what I said, and there is no argument here.

Sure, whatever you say.

 

[CmRoddy]

As Luther said to Erasmus: "Your view of God is too human."

 

[archierieus]

First of all, the text does not say that God keeps us based on our faith. You are reading that into the text. What it says is that God keeps us through faith. Faith is the means that God uses to keep us. He is the one doing the keeping through faith, not us.

Whose faith? Who is exercising the faith?

Secondly, Eph. 2:8 teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by our faith; it says we are saved by grace and faith, again, is the means that is used to manifest that salvation.

Whose faith? Who is exercising the faith?

Rom. 8:30
[/color][/size] 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is a chain that is not broken and all the actions are done by God.

Romans 8:30 is not standalone, either as one verse by itself or as part of an entire 'book,' the book of Romans. The 'chain' begins before v. 30. For example, 'whom He foreknew.' As for each of the 'links' in the chain, the definitions for those terms are not given in v. 30, but they are found earlier in the book of Romans. Romans 3 explains how a person becomes justified, for example.

Now, if you believe that predestination is based on foreknowledge

That is what v. 29 says.

and not the good pleasure of God's will (Eph. 1:5)

Not at all inconsistent with God's foreknowledge.

and on God's choice in election (Rom. 9:11)

Referring on its face to Jacob receiving the birthright rather than Esau, rather than salvation.

and on His mercy alone that He gives to whom He wills (Rom. 9:15-16)

Quoted from the book of Exodus. Look at the quoted passage to find out whom God has mercy on.

then you are absolutely wrong. Nothing in man determines our salvation; it is all based on God's will.

Your assertion.

No sir, I am simply allowing all of Scripture to speak without going beyond what it says with my preconceived assumptions, which is what you are doing now.

The answer to that may be found by comparing Scripture as it reads with the statements a person makes.

 

[beloved57]

That's not what I think at all. "Chosen" meaning that God chooses. But He chooses based on our response in faith.

False teaching..what verse says God chooses based upon response of faith ?

 

[CmRoddy]

Whose faith? Who is exercising the faith?

Whose faith? Who is exercising the faith?

You exercise it but only because God has enabled you to do so. Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Heb. 12:2) and it has been granted to us to believe (Phil. 1:29). As I said before, we have been saved by grace, not by faith. The faith we do show is simply a minifestation of that grace.

Romans 8:30 is not standalone, either as one verse by itself or as part of an entire 'book,' the book of Romans. The 'chain' begins before v. 30. For example, 'whom He foreknew.' As for each of the 'links' in the chain, the definitions for those terms are not given in v. 30, but they are found earlier in the book of Romans. Romans 3 explains how a person becomes justified, for example.

That is what v. 29 says.

Not at all inconsistent with God's foreknowledge.

Umm... all v. 29 says is "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined." It does not say "For those whom He foreknew their faith" and there is nothing to indicate such anywhere in Scripture. The term "foreknew" here means "foreloved" or had a "forerelationship" with. Let me ask you a question: why did Jesus say "I never knew you" if He is omniscient and obviously knows every one? Because He never had a relationship with those people. To believe that God uses foreknowledge is to negate Romans 9:15 and 18 because God cannot mercy whom He wishes and cannot compassion/harden whom He wishes. What it should say is "I have mercy upon whom I see I can have mercy."

You also assume that there is something in man that God sees and finds acceptable. This is a very unblibcal view of man. Men are dead in their trespasses, they are hostile toward God and cannot submit to Him, they are haters of God, they are enemies of God, they are children of wrath by nature, the thoughts of their minds are continously evil, men love darkness, etc, etc, etc. God hates those that do iniquity and there is nothing in man that God finds appealing and deserving of His grace. The only thing He sees is His Son and His abundant lovingkindness to the people He has loved from all eternity.

Referring on its face to Jacob receiving the birthright rather than Esau, rather than salvation.

Wrong. This whole section ties together with Romans 8:29-30 because you see at the end of Romans 9 (v. 24) that all that Paul wrote in Romans 9 is tied together with salvation because of the "call" he mentions. The text becomes incoherent and inconsistent if you view Romans 9 as anything but salvific talk.

Quoted from the book of Exodus. Look at the quoted passage to find out whom God has mercy on.

Exodus 33:19
19And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."
​

It says the same exact thing. God be gracious to whom He will be gracious.

Your assertion.

To the contrary, this is Christ's assertion.

John 6:44
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
​

Now, unless you want to do some more gymnastics by saying that the first "him" and the second "him" are two different people, you are wrong. No man can't do anything.

The answer to that may be found by comparing Scripture as it reads with the statements a person makes.

Another blank assertion.

 

[CmRoddy]

Grace is undeserved merit and if God responds to what man does then it is no longer grace, by definition.

 

[cygnusx1]

Grace is undeserved merit and if God responds to what man does then it is no longer grace, by definition.

We serve God the instigator not god the recipricator

the number one scripture merit mongers ; anti-Calvinist's break is ;

Romans 11

[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?


this is the exact reverse of their dogma !