Is the Catholic Papacy an Anti-Christ?

[Super Kal]

oh really?... so the pope, a regular human being, has the powers of a god now?
that's not Biblical, my friend...

 

[Jockzon21]

Have too many of you been reading the Da Vinci Code? What is up with all of this? It's really so bad. Wake up, people!

 

[Dark_Lite]

oh really?... so the pope, a regular human being, has the powers of a god now?
that's not Biblical, my friend...

Analogy of how this conversation is going:
"Hey, I was thinking of buying a gun for shooting at the range."

"YOU JUST MURDERED SOMEONE!"

 

[Super Kal]

God did not give the pope god-like powers... that, my friend, is Roman Catholic teaching

 

[stranger]

I'm talking about the man who procreated with the woman who gave birth to you.

That man was a trusty friend , but had no means to be my father in place of God... our essence is spirit, that which moves us, that which causes belief , not flesh and blood... our father is spirit , not dust of this earth...

our spirit returns to God who gave it, that is what we are, we are made in the image of spirit , not in the image of flesh and blood mankind ...

Our 'eventual' being is spirit , by 'translation' :-

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Dark_Lite]

That man was a trusty friend , but had no means to be my father in place of God... our essence is spirit, that which moves us, that which causes belief , not flesh and blood... our father is spirit , not dust of this earth...

But did you call him your father?

 

[stranger]

But did you call him your father?

Not once I understood what being father really means, that the love within our deepest hearts [concealed in many , because of pain dished out by this world] is how we know where we come from , what makes us believe this or that, what moves us ...that is what we are, that is what we 'return' to once time is over for us ... our source of love that makes life in us , without which we go into greyness and die of emptiness , that which gives us meaning , that which created us , that which is complete master over death and beyond evil and time ... Jesus explained that this is our real father who alone can restore the spirit to life in the body [resurrection] and translate from living body to spirit ... we do not come from man, we do not go to man , man is not our father .

[In fact the only way I can 'explain' that control of our 'space-time' universe by time-less God is by analogy to our control of dream scenarios that are completely 'non-physical' or the computer programmer's control of a computer virtual reality's characters... we cannot picture the spirit, we have no idea of what life without time means, but life as we know it ends [and is more if we love], whereas life in the spirit has no beginning and no end , no process of time at all ... time is created, not part of the creator's life at all , and only by love can we return to spirit, so that is what we know of God, that is the father Jesus showed us by his love , the way back from this temporary temporal world to the reality we come from , our creator, our father.
The love of God for all creation is complete and infallible, greater than love between man for woman, greater than love between man or woman and child ... cease to be unloving [sin] and one touches God , one's father , and then knows who is father and who is not , something one knows as a child but cannot put into words usually [before the world robs one of love by teaching the ways of the world, evil in its many guises pretending to be good , pretending to be valuable because it is attractive in the short term]

One's real father teaches one love only and none other can reinstate love that the world has robbed , life , livingness , stolen for nothing lasting.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Not once I understood what being father really means

Well at least you're consistent I guess. I will have to say that you are taking this verse far too literally. If you take it completely literally (and dare I say out of context?) then you cannot call your biological father "father." This is the point I have been trying to make.

The verse is in reference to calling a man "father" in the sense that you replace God with that man. No orthodox Christian church does this. Religions that do that are cultic; generally where a person claims to be God reincarnated or some such.

And no, Catholics do not think:
-The Pope is God.
-God literally speaks through the Pope.
-Etc.

Catholics DO think:
-By the virtue of apostolic succession, the Pope is the supreme pastor of the universal Church, which is guided by the holy spirit.
-Being the supreme pastor, the Pope is the main person who guides the earthly Church in governance and in matters of faith. His opinion and wisdom is to be respected and heeded, but is not necessarily doctrine unless he speaks ex cathedra or in conjunction with the Magisterium.

The infallibility of the Church and the Pope in certain matters of faith is not a simple subject. Almost all the time, infallible statements of doctrine or faith are released from the Magisterium in union with the Pope. Even then there are two different levels of the Magisterium, one of which is not infallible.

The Magsterium refers to the teaching authority of the Church--it is comprised of the bishops and the Pope, where the Pope is the head of that authority. This is where the Councils (Vatican II, etc all the way back to Nicea) come from.

The ONLY time, and I stress ONLY time, when the Pope speaking alone infallibly is when he speaks ex cathedra (lit. from the chair [of St. Peter]). There's a whole host of necessities that go along with that as well.

In fact the only way I can 'explain' that control of our 'space-time' universe by time-less God is by analogy to our control of dream scenarios that are completely 'non-physical' or the computer programmer's control of a computer virtual reality's characters... we cannot picture the spirit, we have no idea of what life without time means, but life as we know it ends [and is more if we love], whereas life in the spirit has no beginning and no end , no process of time at all ... time is created, not part of the creator's life at all , and only by love can we return to spirit, so that is what we know of God, that is the father Jesus showed us by his love , the way back from this temporary temporal world to the reality we come from , our creator, our father.

I tend to view the way that God interacts with our universe is an indirect physical interaction. Through his omnipotent power, he creates metaphysical events that ripple into the physical world and manifest themselves as natural phenomena. That's the simple explanation anyway.

 

[stranger]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It is unsurprising that those who claim to have the holy spirit rather clearly do not know all truth ... let alone knowing the future... it ain't that hard to weed out the fakes using the scripture ...

Two millenia of 'spin' just couldn't even come close to making the story in churches of sinners fit the scripture ...

It's hard to imagine anyone setting themselves in place of God or Chrrist who isn't obliged to declare themselves infallible , but then there's the insurmountable problem of all the mistakes exposed by scripture ... it worked for a long time to order people not to read the scripture, but now the proverbial cat is out of the bag, one is obliged to rely on people not bothering to read it and pouring out propaganda on what one wants it to say... it is dirty politics , not truth ... it is simply blasphemy to set oneself in place of the son of God [Vicarius Filii Dei , one title of popes], Jesus set no-one in his place and said he alone would lead his church of saints ... popes are sinners according to their own titles and Jesus' words and lead sinners who lead sinners... one cannot really fail to notice the difference and what scripture says is the seal of those who name Christ , departing from sin, ceasing to be a sinner any longer, obeying Jesus' command to love ,not sin any more, because he is lord and lords are to be obeyed, not ignored...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I mean this ain't contentious, anyone can read what it says and know that sinners are not following Jesus, sinners are by definition unloving , they are not obeying Jesus' command to love, he is not their lord because they do not obey him ... this is straightforward and yet religious tradition in christianities of many kinds has it completely wrong and still says it accepts the bible ... it just staggers me how people don't notice what scripture says ,that it demolishes religion and even prophesies the uniting of religion into worshiping Satan as a god [because Satan creates an image of a Christ figure, a messiah , unites the world and world religion -Rev 13:3-4 , bar a few saints ]

The false image of a Christ already exists in christianity, the Christ of chrsitianity is not the scriptural king come to re-unite Irsael into a holy nation of priests ...

The gospel has been changed too, the new covenant says it is with only those whose ancestors broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-12] , that is not what the churches of sinners say...

 

[Dark_Lite]

Well it's a good thing that:
-Everyone is a sinner.
-The Church, through the Councils guided by God, is responsible for assembling the Bible in the first place.
-There are probably as many different interpretations of the Bible as there are Protestant denominations. I must say I disagree with your particular interpretation.

The Apostolic Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, etc) do not operate on the Bible alone. Sacred Tradition has equal weight. The Bible arose from Tradition in fact. Jesus did not give the apostles the Bible before he ascended. It was assembled into its present form from various manuscripts in about the year 300.

 

[BrightCandle]

Jesus says their successor will take over the whole world , ad still be worshiping an image of Christ created by Satan [Rev 13:3-10] ... no sinner escapes this fate, catching religion does not save anyone , ceasing to sin does.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.




China is a far greater super-power than USA



You are mistaken , the USA owes three times as much as the rest of the world put together! The US economy is in tatters , cannot even pay interest on its loans without even more loans... it has to end in disaster, collapse of the dollar, unless there is monetary reform and control of politicians and international bankers.



Dream on, China has a standing army of 200 million and enough weapons and economic strength to wipe any nation off the map . They now have a deep-water navy with no use in home waters, and an empty superhighway running round the back [to the north] of India ready to move troops and supply convoys into the Middle East at lightning speed... it is unlikely they did this with no intent on using their new navy and superhighway... USA will be red-faced, but not defend Taiwan... nor is it in any position to defend its Middle East oil interests from China when the time comes [if China calls in the US debt to it then USA is broke, busted, dead , USA cannot even afford to stop borrowing from China and India, let alone fight either]



Dream on, the Islamic Arabs alone control the oil that runs the USA ... it is China who will fight them for it , not USA ... USA will be left in the cold and consider whether it is worth starting World War III which they cannot win and an economic disaster way beyond the folly of their existing warmongering [and they without enough oil to even run a peace]



Indeed Israel is a death trap , but even the bible warns of that , God has not finished punishing the evil part of His nation for disobedience to Him, and incredibly they still are haughty and still have not learned where that leads ... serious bloodbath [but two thirds of Jews do not live in modern Israel]



Yes indeed, Jesus requires but 144,000 saints from the tribes of Israel [Rev 7:3-8] , most of them not from the House of Judah ['Jews'] but from the paganised lost house of Israel to whom alone was Jesus sent by God [according to his own statement] and to whom the new covenant of grace applies , not just to Jews. [Heb 8:8-13]

Most of the 144,000 are already dead of course, so perhaps two thousand alive , less than a thousand Jewish saints then , a TINY remnant of Israel... most of Israel are just sinners like the gentiles... but it is important to the truth to look and see that the teachings ascribed to Jesus in religion are NOT those in scripture ... the antichrist figure already exists in the image of a christ painted by man-made religion of sinners for sinners.



Scripture explains what the 'sea' represents, the masses of the people, mostly gentiles... the beast indeed bears remarkable correspondence with the Roman empire which spawned modern apostate christianity and the papacy with its hierarchy and secret orders... the papacy wields great power over those involved in creating the one world government , but there is no way that the papacy will control the antichrist, rather it is the other way around and the papacy will be swallowed up by the world power of the antichrist , a Jew... [else Judaism would not accept him as the Christ, the messiah, their king]



Only an American could describe USA gunboat diplomacy as like a 'lamb' ...and USA society is run by European private banks , it is about as far from free as any nation can get [as past presidents have said... a handful of Europeans, mostly Jews, took over USA many decades ago without a shot being fired or a whimper of protest [through the creation of 'central banking' , completely run by a few private individuals quite ready to remove permanently anyone who gets in the way , even presidents]

The bible says who the dragon is, it is Satan , not a nation or group of nations.



I wouldn't dream of it.



Hmmm... I'd rather use scripture to explain itself, as the saint tells us it doesn't need any private methods of interpretation :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1. Yes, China as more people, but millions still live in the Stone Age! They are dependent on exports, and they have paid the US trillions of $$$$ for our Treasury paper, so who is in a better position?

2. The USA's military strength and power is still unmatched in the world. We could easily wipe out China and the Muslims if we were forced to do so, and in the last few years the USA has proved that by our invasion of Iraq and Afganistan.

3. Your view that a Jew will be the Antichrist is obviously Futurism. Because they propose some unknown figure in the future that will arise which blinds people to the powers that are already at work and arising as we speak.

4. Revelation 13 says that the "dragon" gave the first beast its seat and its authority. The "dragon" was Satan working via Pagan Rome. And history matches that prediction: When Pagan Rome was attacked by the Barbarians in the 400's and 500's, the Papacy was given by Justinian legal civil and religious authority over the Western Empire 538 A.D.

5. When the US invaded Iraq they and the British took control of the largest undeveloped oil field in the world--80 billion barrels of crude! So who really controls the oil in the world. Did anyone stop us when we invaded Irag? Who would stop us now if we attacked and destroyed Iran's nuclear projects?

6. Re-read Revelation 13. The "lamb" that I referred to morphs into a "dragon" (vs.11). That is what is happening in the USA as we speak. Our country started out "lamb" like, but is gradually changing, and our relation with Rome has gradually changed too, GWB met with JPII and Benedict a record number of times while he was in office. The stage is set for the USA and Rome to join together and catapult us into the final showdown between Christ and Satan.

 

[NumberOneSon]

When Pagan Rome was attacked by the Barbarians in the 400's and 500's, the Papacy was given by Justinian legal civil and religious authority over the Western Empire 538 A.D.

I'm afraid you are quite mistaken about this. Justinian never gave the papacy legal "civil and religious authority" over the Western Empire, not in 538AD nor in any other year for that matter. In the rare instance that the Justinian Code addressed the papacy, it only touched on the Roman See's ecclesiastical authority over the Church; it never gave the papacy any proposed temporal authority over the Roman Empire. That idea is a myth.

The fact is that when Justinian had the opportunity to grant the papacy overarching civil authority over the West he failed to do so every time. In 540AD he gave the administration of Italy over to Alexander the Logothete, not the pope; then after the end of the Gothic War, instead of turning the civil government over to the papacy, Justinian created the Exarchate of Ravenna, gave full civil authority to the Exarch Narses, and kept Ravenna as the capital of Italy. Justinian's many successors did not grant your proposed authority to the Roman See either.

“Justinian sent a civilian, Alexander the Logothete, to govern Italy, hoping that his financial arrangements would render the new conquest a source of revenue to the imperial treasury. The fiscal administration of the new governor soon excited great discontent.”
(Greeks Under the Romans, George Finley pg. 244)

“The Emperor’s governors, called Exarchs, ruled the whole peninsula from their capital, Ravenna. Narses, the conqueror of the Ostrogoths, was the first and greatest of the Exarchs, and ruled Italy from A.D. 554 to A.D. 568.”
(Library of Universal History, Israel Smith Clare, pg. 1538)

The growth of the papacy's civil authority during the Middle Ages had practically nothing to do with Justinian's legislation, and had everything to do with the Lombard invasion of Italy, which led to weakened Byzantine control over Italy in general, which led to more autonomy for the papacy, which led to the papacy turning to the Franks for protection, which led to the Donation of Pepin in the 8th Century. The papacy's civil authority was due to circumstance, not Justinian's legal code.

If Justinian's law code spelled out the papacy's legal civil authority over the Western Empire then please provide the text from the Code that specifically states this, otherwise there is no textual evidence for that claim. Justinian's 533AD "headship" letter to Pope John II does not say anything about temporal power over the Empire, so where in the Code does he grant the legal transfer of civil power of the West to the papacy? The truth is he didn't, a fact that is firmly cemented when we look at the men he actually selected to run the government of the West in his stead.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[TraderJack]

.

This is a "split" off of another thread that was seriously side-tracked....


Is the RCC and/or it's Pope or the Catholic Papacy the or an anti-Christ?


Some of MY thoughts....


1. This is an HISTORIC position of some Protestant denominations. It is ONE of many common assertions of the Reformation five centuries ago.


2. It is MY humble, fallible, personal opinion that there are several statements that are best left to ancient history, and MUST understood in the light and milieu of the age in which they were produced. The Catholic Church's "Unam Sanctum" and these Protestant assertations are AMONG them. There are, sadly, lots of examples. I remember, many years ago, when I quoted Unam Sanctum to a Catholic friend. He became quite offended, insisted it was a lie and that NO Catholic believes that and the RCC NEVER believed such a "stupid thing" (his words, not mine). Dig up a lot of these things and I think the common response is not dissimilar.


3. I personally WISH each tradition would just apologize for them and drop them, but that doesn't seem to be how it goes. The more typical approach is to either "reinterpret" them (sometimes 180 degrees differently than what the words actually say) or simply to ignore such in hopes that it will be forgotten (fat chance) or (in a way I would somewhat support) by noting the historic milieu.


4. As I discussed this at length with my Lutheran pastor, he noted that the basis of this was that the BIBLE defines "anti-Christ" as a denial of Jesus as THE Christ, THE Savior. Luther, the Lutheran Church Fathers and generally 16th Century Protestants understood (correctly or not) that the RCC taught that OUR works play at least SOME role in our salvation. Thus, there IS a certain 'logic' in arguing that THEREFORE, for the RCC, Jesus is not THE Christ, THE Savior but rather PART Christ, PART Savior or maybe A Christ, A Savior. We'd also be a Christ, a Savior. Now, we could argue until Jesus comes back what the relative percentages are (99% Jesus, 1% me, whatever) but it's moot to the point. IF our works have ANY role, then we are at least partly the Christ, the Savior and therefore Christ is not - at least not fully. Now, maybe Luther (who had a doctorate in Catholic theology from a Catholic university) misunderstood and that was not the Catholic position, but in any case, that was the understanding and the basis for the assertion. Whether the RCC did or still does teach that OUR works are necessary for salvation is another issue for another day and thread. MY point here is: that was the Protestant understanding and perspective 500 years ago.


5. No one denies that the Popes of recent times have been man of GREAT faith, piety and morality. I GREATLY honor and respect and hold in high esteem those that have held that Office in my lifetime. But we need to remember that the situation was different for those Reformers. Read about the life of Pope Alexander VI - the one Luther grew up under - and you'll get the milieu of his day. ONE of the many, many blessings of the Reformation, IMHO, is that the RCC radically changed how and whom it choose as the Holy Father.


6. I PERSONALLY view this as, at least, unnecessary and counterproductive. As I have stated elsewhere, I do not affirm the papacy or the RCC as an anti-Christ. I just don't think that accomplishes anything and hurts much. We DO need to talk about Justification, however.


What are your thoughts?


Pax


- Josiah




.

Leo I, bishop of Rome said that whatever bishop laid claim to being the "universal/supreme" bishop of the entire church IS The Antichrist.

Soon after, Damasus, bishop of Rome declared himself and Roman bishops to be the "universal/supreme" bishops of the entire church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Leo I, bishop of Rome said that whatever bishop laid claim to being the "universal/supreme" bishop of the entire church IS The Antichrist.

Soon after, Damasus, bishop of Rome declared himself and Roman bishops to be the "universal/supreme" bishops of the entire church.

Greetings TJ. I would be interested in seeing the source of this if you have time to look up. Thanks

 

[NumberOneSon]

Leo I, bishop of Rome said that whatever bishop laid claim to being the "universal/supreme" bishop of the entire church IS The Antichrist.

Soon after, Damasus, bishop of Rome declared himself and Roman bishops to be the "universal/supreme" bishops of the entire church.

I think you might have meant to say Gregory I, not Leo I. Pope Leo had no problem with the being recognized as the "Bishop of the whole church" and first of all bishops. And no, Pope Gregory did not say that any bishop claiming to be "universal/supreme" bishop is the Antichrist; he said they were a precursor to the Antichrist (but of course you would have to understand how he was defining "universal bishop", which wasn't what you think). He certainly recognized that the Roman See was the "Head of all other churches" and that he knew of no bishop that was "not subject to the Apostolic See". That's a different issue from the objections Gregory raised over the title claims made by the Patriarch of Constantinople.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think you might have meant to say Gregory I, not Leo I. Pope Leo had no problem with the being recognized as the "Bishop of the whole church" and first of all bishops. And no, Pope Gregory did not say that any bishop claiming to be "universal/supreme" bishop is the Antichrist; he said they were a precursor to the Antichrist (but of course you would have to understand how he was defining "universal bishop", which wasn't what you think). He certainly recognized that the Roman See was the "Head of all other churches" and that he knew of no bishop that was "is not subject to the Apostolic See". That's a different issue from the objections Gregory raised over the title claims made by the Patriarch of Constantinople.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Thank you Acts. I brought that up on another board and it appears as if another poster also agrees with what you stated. God bless

http://www.christianforums.com/t6905007/

I'm fairly confident it was not Leo but Gregory whose comments were quoted in the decretals where he said the “forerunner of Antichrist” would stake the claim of “Universal Bishop” or something to that line of speaking.

 

[stranger]

1. Yes, China as more people, but millions still live in the Stone Age! They dependent on exports, and they have paid the US trillions of $$$$ for our Treasury paper, so who is in a better position?

A quarter of the world's people live in China, that they can largely feed themselves without help from machines is a great bonus in a world where oil production is declining steadily at 3%/year where there is no prospect of new wells bringing in even a quarter of what is being lost as old wells dry out and die... it is the US economy that is in terminal decline through over-dependence [70%] on oil that it can no longer afford [nor does anyone want to give US their oil because USA has deserved world reputation as a bully, most nations are fed up with having weapons waved in their faces and cry no tears as America drops to its knees , still trying to pretend it is a player as its currency prepares to die from hyperinflation caused by profligate over-spending ...sadly the only way left to continue the old sad myths is to wage war and vainly hope that USA ca hang on to control in the Middle East , but it lost decades ago the economic war and when the dollar ends it very evil life of world deceit then so will the the USA lose the Middle East ... China ,India and Africa hold three quarters of the world population and all will in turn need the last reserves of oil in the world held under the sand in Muslim Arab countries , only China has already readied itself for the move and has no opponent who will stand against her once the dollar fails ... the 'inscrutable' Chinese started planning for this decades ago , and all they have to do is wait for the inevitable , then move down their new motorway to claim in prize ... Islam will doubtless continue its guerilla war , and there is enough red mercury from Russia's economic crisis for a few well-known cities to disappear off the map , but it makes no difference , it is small potatoes and the world by then will have bigger concerns over the demise of nature and increasing world starvation [as prophesied in scripture] because we thought money represented and could buy everything of value and forgot that we need nature healthy to be able to eat.

Acquiring worthless US treasury bills [that can never be paid on , with built-in default] is a pretty shrewd move by China to make sure that USA never challenges her ... China has no need to export , it just suits her todo so, she is far from dependent upon worthless US currency , she has so much money that she 'loans' it out with no prospect of repayment, just to keep USA quiet and assure that at any time China can 'pull the plug' if USA does anything to try to upset China's plans... a massive insurance of her vastly superior long-term strategy that is about to reap its reward , as the USA just kills itself and becomes seen to be the desperately poor nation she is , with a insufficient economy to support her absurdly extravagant and world-harming way of life.... it does end because it must, the world has had enough of US greed and bullying , the lesson is hard and final...

2. The USA's military strength and power is still unmatched in the world. We could easily wipe out China and the Muslims if we were forced to do so, and in the last few years the USA has proved that by our invasion of Iraq and Afganistan.

Again, it must amuse the Chinese immensely that USA s crippling itself with a remote war using up almost all its forces fighting the few that would actively oppose China's move into the Middle East , they must rock back in their chairs an laugh themselves silly... USA needs China, not the other way around ,and the price of that is the Middle East , losing which only seal America's fate of complete decline.

As for Islam, it is still divided , but prophesied to unite when the world moves to one world government and religion [which the international bankers who already own half the world and most of its resources and government steadily move toward, as inexorably as China moves toward the oil in the Middle East] ... there is certainly some big wars to be fought before then and tactical nuclear weapons are rather inevitable , however everyone now knows about nuclear winter, it is in no-one's interest to make the whole earth uninhabitable with all-out nuclear war , there could be no winner, only losers ... it is probably enough to stop even fundamentalists , but ironically we have broken the web of life in the name of mechanised 'progress' already , we are just waiting for the consequences to kill all mankind in any case.

As for USA's wars, one cannot fight without oil and the world is finally fed up with sabre-rattling , no-one has yet finished laughing about Vietnam, and soon the huger joke of Afghanistan and Iraq will be revealed ... what a con job by international bankers, but they have to keep pulling off bigger and bigger stunts cos their ways demand endless exponential growth ['progress' measured by empty money with nothing behind it]... God always said this was all one big trap for Satan , we just watch , USA is the last to see they have been suckered in and bled dry just to increase the world power of a few private individuals from Europe ... Goldmann Sachs is the power behind the front-man Obama, as he keeps the myths rolling out ... just what people want to hear as the slump bites ten times deeper by the end of this year [making only bankers richer at expense of devastation of the many] ... it is a big game now, big enough to appear in prophecy and for anyone who cares to to read about the endgame according to God, not spin of professional sinners.

Your view that a Jew will be the Antichrist is obviously Futurism.

It's only obvious, no-one can pretend to be the Jewish Messiah [Christ] without being a Jew , the scripture states the tribe, Judah.

Because they propose some unknown figure in the future that will arise which blinds people to the powers that are already at work and arising as we speak.

The whole of divided religion shows that the powers of Satan are already at work, as indeed does the world situation and even USA's laughable wars [which have drawn in Europe... and even France is rejoining NATO] ... far from blinding people , people blind themselves because they don't want to see ...its pretty painful to watch the world tear itself and nature apart all at once, in worship of machines doing the work although we know the oil that runs them is irreplaceable and running dry in wells all over the world, last of all in the Middle East ... we could have used the oil to make an alternatve convenient source of energy, instead we use it to fight over it in wars until there is none left and everyone loses... I mean mankind is pathetic when it comes to long-term thinking, stupid, inane , deliberately blind - cos' a few see where it is leading but they are not the ones doing the leading... and God told us where it ends up and why... none so blind as those who refuse to see... but nothing can stop the blindness because it is integral to God's plan, Satan is defeated and dies, but USA is his tool in the completely one-sided 'fight', not God's , European international bankers have completely controlled USA for over eighty years and engineered this world slump , just as the engineered 9/11 to get USA up tight about a mnor threat of 'terrorism' and the to cover up the theft of the gold below the twin towers... USA gave up its civil rights, it freedom from autocracy, in the 'Patriot Acts' with scarcely a murmur ... the consequences are big indeed , the opposition to any plan can be silenced silently under the law now, the individual has lost much of his say , the truth cannot be said in many more places ]

Revelation 13 says that the "dragon" gave the first beast its seat and its authority. The "dragon" was Satan working via Pagan Rome. And history matches that prediction: When Pagan Rome was attacked by the Barbarians in the 400's and 500's, the Papacy was given by Justinian legal civil and religious authority over the Western Empire 538 A.D.

yeah the papacy was involved from the beginning and runs secret societies, but it is even bigger than that , the largest identifiable force is the 227 families in international banking, mostly Jewish, who surreptitiously own half the world already , the most valuable half , and have changed laws to make it leagl for them to own all the world whilst the world remains in ever-increasing unpayable debt to them (for nothing they ever had!) ...

It is an unbelievable con trick, which is why few even notice we are working
ever harder to be in ever-greater debt ...clearly it has to end soon, but no-one can stop it, it has to crash itself, taking the banks and stock markets with it, crippling industry and agriculture [but sadly too late to save nature] ... a world crippled by finally realising money has been worthless for some time now, created from nothing on demand , whist bankers take interest on 'loaning' what they never had... and make sure no-one can pay the interest , let alone repay the loan, without repossession of some unfortunate somewhere else ...the money to pay interest is never created , it has to come from yet more loans of nothing ... the world long ago mortgaged its future and bankers buy u the world in repossession at low prices with interest from what they never had ... it is easy money gone crazy and not even governments exercise the power to stop them [even presidents get assassinated for trying , the power of evil that wil destroy us all is just too big already for one man to break it ... so Satan made his plan to rule the world, but it is a dead world he eventually all-but-rules, and Jesus returns only to take the saints who will rule the new earth... sinners are left to reap the consequences of going along with Satan for so long ...it is the wrath of God not to save sinners from the trap, the end of this earth takes a while, the bible calls it the worst time anyone ever lived through and in the end the earth and heavens are destroyed ... billions die sinners, but to start again freed of sin in the new earth, where te kingdom is established and the few rue and minister in justice, equality, sharing, love ... bizarrely though some still follow Satan after his resurrection to trial the many , even then many follow the 'easy' way that leads to long-term disaster and a second death for sin :-

When the US invaded Iraq they and the British took control of the largest undeveloped oil field in the world--80 billion barrels of crude! So who really controls the oil in the world. Did anyone stop us when we invaded Irag? Who would stop us now if we attacked and destroyed Iran's nuclear projects?

China 'outflanked' the rather childish US plan in the Middle East even before it was created over twenty years ago ... only US and Britain are so pompous about their powers as to not notice that they lost [long-term] even before they began ... the irony then is that when China takes her prize of that oil, the only ones who will continue the fight are the very ones uSA and Britain [and increasingly Europe] are fighting now... I mean that is
utterly hilarious [at least if one is Chinese and doesn't instead weep about the inanity of mankind's absurdly foolish greed and inequality, our unlovingness, our sin against God law of love that buys us wages in (mass) death]

6. Re-read Revelation 13. The "lamb" that I referred to morphs into a "dragon" (vs.11). That is what is happening in the USA as we speak. Our country started out "lamb" like, but is gradually changing, and our relation with Rome has gradually changed too, GWB met with JPII and Benedict a record number of times while he was in office. The stage is set for the USA and Rome to join together and catapult us into the final showdown between Christ and Satan.

USA was formed by trampling the native population into the ground... it is still happening, they are still being persecuted, lied to, robbed by government, trampled on, killed by inequality ... this has never been a 'lamb' except in propaganda of the greedy, those whose god is Satan who like to pretend they respect the God of love... no different from those Jesus justly called hypocrites...

 

[NumberOneSon]

Thank you Acts. I brought that up on another board and it appears as if another poster also agrees with what you stated. God bless

http://www.christianforums.com/t6905007/

Cool. Also, I want to point out that Pope Damasus reigned during the 4th Century, so if he claimed papal primacy he did so 60+ years before Leo I, not after him.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[stranger]

Consider what how the pope would react to a man who claimed to have authority of God over him ... accusations of blasphemy, heresy, and in consequence being cut off from the Roman churches,excommunicated ... no matter if this were the return of Christ!

God requires religion and someone to lead it into worship of the 'antichristos' , the Christ figure who is not the Hebrew Jesus of scripture, the true Messiah of Israel's new covenant ... but Jesus' 'congregation' of saints needs no ma in place of the son of God , nor does scripture prophesy any such leader for the saints i their lonesome assignment from Jesus of finding remnants of the lost scattered paganised House of Israel al over the world , so few [Matt 7:14] in the 'harvest' , that leads so many to salvation afterward [Rev 7:910] who took the broad way of the many,not few, in this life...

We thus see the role of the antichrist and divided religious tradition of modern Christianity in God's plan, God simply does not require more than a few at the beginning of the kingdom come to the many, not more than a few are needed to minis to and rule in the kingdom , and they needs must be the first fruits of the spirit's work of salvation, yet it would be pointless if modern religion of sinners were true, why would God even bother resurrecting all from hell if they were already condemned through dying in sin [many of them never even having heard of Jesus]?

Why set up kings and priests except to rule and minister in the kingdom ? How else are the many who go by the broad way saved (as Jesus says they will be Rev 7:9-10] than by works after the wages of their sin in this life are paid in death ?

Jesus tells us how few are saints in this life, sealed by the spirit to cease from sin under the new covenant , he even tells us which sons of Jacob [re-named 'Israel' by God] the saints are descended from and that the new covenant is only with those whose ancestors ['fathers']broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-12] ...

thus the work of Rome ,and the climax of power of the antichrist , where the whole world unites in belief of Satan's deceit [Rev 13:3-10] of man through religion and the state [bar only the few, the saints] is NECESSARY to God's plan , mankind is deluded a while simply to make tie for setting up he saints as priests and kings in the kingdom FIRST they truly need to be there at the beginning , the few must be first...

But Jesus promises the salvation of the many afterward [Rev 7:9-10] , not just the first few in this life , and we know that the many go the broad way through destruction in death , but are not lost , Jesus says they are judged by works [not grace] but they cannot begin until freed from hell in the second resurrection [the first resurrection being for the just, the few, the saints of this earth by their new covenant of grace because they are required at the beginning of the kingdom finally come , not just in the hearts of the few saints now, but to work Jesus' promise for salvation to the many [Rev 7:9-10]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

to whom would these few priests minister but the many of the second resurrection when all sinners of this are freed from sin by death and freed from hell by resurrection of the unjust :-

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Note above that the first resurrection is for the just, the saints of this life who died before Jesus' return

thus death and the second resurrection simply have the effect of queuing up over 12 billion sinners until the kingdom of god is ready to release them from hell and to judge them from their works in the kingdom after God returns them all to life :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

For the many then, for all who are still sinners at death or by Jesus' return, then death is how they are freed of sin, the new covenant is only for the few and says who it is for , those God chose to be His priests and kings eventually , those He prophesied would be to show His power of prophecy , the children [descendants] of those who broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] ,it is explicit and it is God's covenant , and it says the children of Israel are forgiven now, whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-13], this is no 'spiriitual Israel' made up of sinners of modern divided religion but as God says, it is the children of those who broke the old covenant , it is both Houses of ancient Israel ... the Jews being more easy to convey the news of the new covenant to because they already read the Prophets[Jer 31:31-34], Jesus was sent by God first to the lost paganised House of Israel [scattered worldwide long before the Jews for idol-worship in which they continue until the disciples and saints they 'ordain' in their search show them the new covenant with Israel's two Houses.]

The "strong delusion" of sinners by religion and by states in this world, that leads to one world government and one world religion [against the few remaining saints by that time] is not only sent by God, but thus necessary o simply get the timing right for the second phase of salvation [Rev 7:9-10] of the many , after only few find the strait narrow way [Matt 7:14] in this life since they must minister and rule the many righteusly [ unlike the rule and divided religion of this world's priests and kings]

2 Thessalonians 2:11 ...God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Satan has a major role in God's plan then , as the essential antichrist , climactic product of the apostasy of modern divided religion when it unites to delude the whole word [bar a few saints that God requires separated to be ready to serve at teh beginning of the kingdom come to the many]
It is rather obvious that this is still future [some think not], beacause Israel is still far from being a holy nation of priests and still not united [Jews with House of Israel] under one king, the Messiah, the Christ ... clearly then it is future as Jesus indeed also says they will rule on earth, but NOT THIS EARTH :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The kingdom of God for the many is thus future, beyond the end of this earth, where the many , freed from previous sin in death, live righteously and are judged by works after death in the kingdom,where the few minister [which is why only few are taken at Jesus' return, in this world, which is why the new covenant says it is with the children of Israel, now forgiven]

God really did then declare His plan, the end written in the beginning , to show His power to cause men to love by means of His truth given by his spirit [eventually to all -Joel 2:28, but for now only the few, so that the many do not 'gatecrash' before the priesthood and kings are ready to serve the many]

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The antichrist is more than Rome then , it is the compromise in amalgamation of world religions and secular power in unity of word government against the few who maintain the strait and narrow [Mat 7:14] ... the many have to be deluded a while , but Jesus says countless many of all nations, not just Israel, are saved eventually [Rev 7:9-10], just that the many cannot be first because the few have to be there first to minister to the many later...

It takes a while to integrate the whole word of God in scripture into one story , few even believe that NT and OT are compatible because modern religions ficus almost entirely on one or other or none... but then few will be saints in this life according to Jesus [Rev 7:3-8] , Matthew[7:14] , Jude and Enoch [Jude 1:14], etc ... one cannot ,even by simple counting, believe both Jesus and modern Christainity of sinners...

In Greek 'antichristos' means both 'against Christ' and 'in place of Christ' , we can easily see from even reading te new covenant that the modern notonof teh gospel is already false, that Crstinaity denies the sole purpose Jesus set for himself and his disciples :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

We see then the power of the antichrist manifest in religion today ,all around, not yet united [showing its apostasy clearly by that] [and that power emblazoned, dominating this site,as one might expect ] but one should realise from te above that one cannot oppose it, there is no means to save the masses of sinners of this world from being freed from sin in death, and it would not happen without the strong delusion sent from God on the manifestation of Satan as the antichriist, cast down on earth from heaven as mortal man [just as Jesus, to die, but unlike Jesus to die justly, for blasphemy]

One cannot be 'anti-religion' even when one sees how it must be and is apostate from scripture , because it is essential to God's plan, Jesus had no intention of preventing the power of Satan over the whole world becoming a reality , only of keeping the few which God gave him separate from it ... thus one can tell by even counting who is the antichrist ,and rely on the numbers swelling when world government arrives as predicted by Jesus ... it is just the next step toward eventual government by Jesus i the kingdom come, but it is conclusive proof that this is in the future [which i mention because some here manage to doubt that]

 

[TraderJack]

I'm afraid you are quite mistaken about this. Justinian never gave the papacy legal "civil and religious authority" over the Western Empire, not in 538AD nor in any other year for that matter. In the rare instance that the Justinian Code addressed the papacy, it only touched on the Roman See's ecclesiastical authority over the Church; it never gave the papacy any proposed temporal authority over the Roman Empire. That idea is a myth.

The fact is that when Justinian had the opportunity to grant the papacy overarching civil authority over the West he failed to do so every time. In 540AD he gave the administration of Italy over to Alexander the Logothete, not the pope; then after the end of the Gothic War, instead of turning the civil government over to the papacy, Justinian created the Exarchate of Ravenna, gave full civil authority to the Exarch Narses, and kept Ravenna as the capital of Italy. Justinian's many successors did not grant your proposed authority to the Roman See either.

“Justinian sent a civilian, Alexander the Logothete, to govern Italy, hoping that his financial arrangements would render the new conquest a source of revenue to the imperial treasury. The fiscal administration of the new governor soon excited great discontent.”
(Greeks Under the Romans, George Finley pg. 244)

“The Emperor’s governors, called Exarchs, ruled the whole peninsula from their capital, Ravenna. Narses, the conqueror of the Ostrogoths, was the first and greatest of the Exarchs, and ruled Italy from A.D. 554 to A.D. 568.”
(Library of Universal History, Israel Smith Clare, pg. 1538)

The growth of the papacy's civil authority during the Middle Ages had practically nothing to do with Justinian's legislation, and had everything to do with the Lombard invasion of Italy, which led to weakened Byzantine control over Italy in general, which led to more autonomy for the papacy, which led to the papacy turning to the Franks for protection, which led to the Donation of Pepin in the 8th Century. The papacy's civil authority was due to circumstance, not Justinian's legal code.

If Justinian's law code spelled out the papacy's legal civil authority over the Western Empire then please provide the text from the Code that specifically states this, otherwise there is no textual evidence for that claim. Justinian's 533AD "headship" letter to Pope John II does not say anything about temporal power over the Empire, so where in the Code does he grant the legal transfer of civil power of the West to the papacy? The truth is he didn't, a fact that is firmly cemented when we look at the men he actually selected to run the government of the West in his stead.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

The growth of the papacy's civil authority during the Middle Ages had practically nothing to do with Justinian's legislation, and had everything to do with the Lombard invasion of Italy, which led to weakened Byzantine control over Italy in general, which led to more autonomy for the papacy, which led to the papacy turning to the Franks for protection, which led to the Donation of Pepin in the 8th Century. The papacy's civil authority was due to circumstance, not Justinian's legal code.

You may want to cover the tremendous impact that the medieval forgeries had on the development of papal civil and ecclesial power, particularly, "The Donation of Constantine", which led to the "Donation of Pepin" of the papal states, and the "Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore" on forwarding the fraudulent claim of Roman papal supremacy.

Oddly enough, William of Ockham, as well as most theologians prior to Unam Sanctum, denied that the popes of Rome had any civil authority at all, but then Rome created the "Two Swords" doctrine codified in Unam Sanctum and backed up with forgeries to make it appear they had authority from antiquity that they never had.