Is the Catholic Papacy an Anti-Christ?

[Dark_Lite]

:o Could you explain what on earth you mean in terms even the newbies here can understand and using scripture please?

If you're talking about me, I was just commenting in general on this thread and some of the posts in here. Not your post specifically.

 

[BrightCandle]

I think there are a lot of Christian who will follow the real Anti-Christ straight to hell while they are waiting for the Pope to grow horns.

The Papacy has already been identified as early as the 16th century, as being the "little horn" that exalted himself as described in the book of Daniel. Those who refuse to see this as being fulfilled by the Papacy are being set up to be deceived by the Papacy.

 

[BrightCandle]

Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years -------> It's the anti-Christ!

Brilliant if I do say so myself.

Yes, its a perfect fit, because as Paul stated the "mystery of iniquity" was already at work in his time.

 

[Secundulus]

The Papacy has already been identified as early as the 16th century, as being the "little horn" that exalted himself as described in the book of Daniel. Those who refuse to see this as being fulfilled by the Papacy are being set up to be deceived by the Papacy.

You assume of course that those in the 16th Century were correct. Since what they unleashed has now resulted in homosexuality and abortion being glorified as gifts from God, I am not so sure.

 

[stranger]

If you're talking about me, I was just commenting in general on this thread and some of the posts in here. Not your post specifically.

Yes, but you didn't explain what you mean, didn't discuss your point so others, including newbies, can understand it and then we all can discuss it, as is the purpose of a discussion site such as this ... preferably using scripture or some other reference where possible, so people know the source of your info.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by BrightCandle The Papacy has already been identified as early as the 16th century, as being the "little horn" that exalted himself as described in the book of Daniel. Those who refuse to see this as being fulfilled by the Papacy are being set up to be deceived by the Papacy.

You assume of course that those in the 16th Century were correct. Since what they unleashed has now resulted in homosexuality and abortion being glorified as gifts from God, I am not so sure.

Greetings. How do you, the RCs and others view that "little horn" in Daniel?

 

[stranger]

Yes, its a perfect fit, because as Paul stated the "mystery of iniquity" was already at work in his time.

Many things have been around for that long... one needs thus to consider more...

The 'mystery of iniquity' is simply that mankind in the depths of our hearts,wants only to love and be loved [as God and Jesus instruct Israel and the saints to do] , it is the natural 'law' of mankind to love and thus obey Jesus and God, but so many do not do so that many more end up loving just one person, or loving just their family, or loving just those who love them, or loving one group who agree with them, or loving one country ...and so on...

that is the mystery about iniquity, it is unnatural to mankind, we have to lie to our own self to be unloving, to sin...

Clearly that is also the power of the force against Jesus' plan to redeem all sinners back to the love they were born with in their hearts [there is no 'original sin' according to scripture, no-one is responsible for the sin of any other , that would be unjust in extreme and is explicitly denied by scripture :-

Ezek 18:20...The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

2 Chronicles 25:4 .... every man shall die for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

[Adam did not even sin by eating the fruit, he did not know good from evil until after eating the fruit, and so was innocent of the sin imputed to him by much relighious tradition . A point that Paul underlines:-
Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
]

So is the mystery of iniquity denying Jesus AND 'in place of Christ' [the Greek meaning of 'antichristos'] in all the world bar those few who cease from sin and become saints, as Jesus describes [Rev 13:3-10] the final climax of power of the antichrist before his mortal death at the hand of strangers [Ezekiel 28:10] at Jesus' return?

In other words will all modern christian sinners worship the false christ rather than the Jesus of scripture by the time Jesus returns... it seems very plausible that they will because the image of Christ in religion is far from the Christ [Messiah come to unite Israel into one united holy nation of priests and kings ruling over the gentiles] that is described in OT and NT scripture.

Hmmm... yes, it fits rather well, but will never be accepted by religious tradition of Jewish and Christian sinners, led by sinners ,not by saints [As Jesus and the saints say , only those few who depart from sin will first [Matt 7:14] be taken, the many are taken later [Rev 7:9-10]

The mystery of iniquity is not resolved in this life , Satan is resurrected from death along with everyone else dead in hell , freed from sin in death , to have their works judged in the kingdom of God [for which the few have been readied first to rule and minister as perfectly as Jesus]

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Jesus shows us how wrong religion is already, hell cannot hold onto the dead ,nor is there any more point in torturing a dead person any more than flogging a dead horse, and the many are judged by works after death , not according to their confusion by the mystery of iniquity in this life [on which sinners are supposed to be better than other sinners if they believe the words of this or that sinner in place of every word of God .

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It seems rather convincing then, the manifestation of Satan is the antichrist, by the power of the [mystery of ] iniquity over men , the denial of love even in religion spreads eventually to whole world ,just like yeast through rising bread leavens the whole , Jesus parable and Jesus' revelation :-

Rev 13:3 ... and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Clearly the few who gave up sinning to obey Jesus as Lord hold out until Jesus returns, but only just ... it turns out that sinners are all sinners, whether they are religious or not , all are rejected by Jesus at his return, and it is indeed iniquity that denies Christ and worships a false image instead...


Matthew 7:23 [Jesus , speaking of his return] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Yes, but you didn't explain what you mean, didn't discuss your point so others, including newbies, can understand it and then we all can discuss it, as is the purpose of a discussion site such as this ... preferably using scripture or some other reference where possible, so people know the source of your info.

My point was to use sarcasm to point out that the entire idea is a logical trainwreck that makes no sense.

It's like graphing ice cream sales vs. the growth of piracy. Completely unrelated.

 

[stranger]

I think there are a lot of Christian who will follow the real Anti-Christ straight to hell while they are waiting for the Pope to grow horns.

It hardly matters, religious sinners of all kinds and denominations are still sinners, not saints ... and they all get resurrected from hell according to Jesus, alongside all others who died still in sin :

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

nobody left in hell, no-one for final inquisiton until the lake of 'fire'...

 

[nephilimiyr]

6. I PERSONALLY view this as, at least, unnecessary and counterproductive. As I have stated elsewhere, I do not affirm the papacy or the RCC as an anti-Christ. I just don't think that accomplishes anything and hurts much. We DO need to talk about Justification, however. [/color]


What are your thoughts?

Hi CJ, No I don't believe the Catholic papacy is an anti-christ. Although I question your belief that those who may question this is unnecessary and counterproductive. I just don't think that questioning such things is bad and actually think we should question such things. I've questioned it myself as well as many Protestant denominations and or movements. I reject the idea that the RCC or it's papacy is immune.

I believe the spirit of anti-christ can be found in any church or denomination.

 

[BrightCandle]

You assume of course that those in the 16th Century were correct. Since what they unleashed has now resulted in homosexuality and abortion being glorified as gifts from God, I am not so sure.

Every Protestant Reformer from Wycliff to Spurgeon identified the Papacy as the Beast, Antichrist, little horn, etc. That was about 500 years from the time of Wycliff to Spurgeon.

They saw the pompous claims of the Papacy and felt its wrath as well. There is no other organization that has so long a history that matches the identifying characteristics of the Antichrist as the Papacy.

Those who identified the Papacy as the Antichrist were not for abortion and homosexuality! The fact of the matter is that there is more homosexuality in the Roman Catholic Church than in any other church in the whole world.

 

[Secundulus]

Every Protestant Reformer from Wycliff to Spurgeon identified the Papacy as the Beast, Antichrist, little horn, etc. That was about 500 years from the time of Wycliff to Spurgeon.

I know that's what they said.

They saw the pompous claims of the Papacy and felt its wrath as well. There is no other organization that has so long a history that matches the identifying characteristics of the Antichrist as the Papacy.

Except for Islam.

Those who identified the Papacy as the Antichrist were not for abortion and homosexuality! The fact of the matter is that there is more homosexuality in the Roman Catholic Church than in any other church in the whole world.

The situation as it exists today is their creation. They unleashed the forces that brought it about.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

You know, i think without the Catholic Church, we'd all be up the creek without a paddle. I was reading about the Cathars the other day.. they were a bit heretical, but at that time, the Catholic Church was the order against heresy.. and the apostle's creed/creed of Nicea, still is the standard against heresy. They might have gone a bit off the road, but they carried the true faith thoughout the ages.. until the reformation.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Those who identified the Papacy as the Antichrist were not for abortion and homosexuality! The fact of the matter is that there is more homosexuality in the Roman Catholic Church than in any other church in the whole world.

It is MY understanding (and I ain't saying that's saying much) that the Lutheran Church Fathers regarded the Papacy as an anti-Christ NOT in some Eschatological since from Revelation, but simply in the since of First John (the ONLY place where this concept of anti-Christs is mentioned) and, the definition they held is the one the Bible gives: As one who denies that Jesus is THE Christ/Savior. According to the Bible, anti-Christ is not a FUTURE singular thing associated with End Times but a present reality ("there ARE many anti-Christs" John writes in roughly 90 AD). Here's the "line of thought": If one teaches that Jesus is not THE Christ, THE Savior, then one is an Anti-Christ. Now, the Lutheran Church Fathers understood that the Catholic Church via it's "infallible" Pope was saying that Salvation depends at least partly on us - our works, thus salvation is (at least in part) our function, thus Jesus is not THE Savior but PART Savior or A Savior and we also are PART Savior, PART Christ. If WE contribute to our salvation (the amount is moot to this discussion), then Jesus is not THE Savior, and the proclaimation of such would make one an anti-Christ. The thought simply went no further. It was a JUSTIFICATION issue, not an Eschatological one. John insists that antichrist is a PRESENT not future reality and has to do with whether one regards Jesus as THE Christ/Savior or as part Savior or a Savior.

Now, it is MY position that while there may be a certain "logic" here (depending on whether the RCC did or does say that salvation depends at least in small part on US), the term is misapplied here. I am on record as saying I disagree with this label being placed on the Papacy and/or RCC. As far as I know, all the other Lutherans posting around CF do, too. I do NOT believe that the papacy is or was ever an anti-Christ, although I "get" how some of the Lutheran Church Fathers meant this.




.

 

[Standing Up]

1 Jn. 2:28 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 Jn. 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There will be antichrist (little horn?) and there are already many antichrists.

Antichrists deny Jesus came in the flesh (gnostics?).
Antichrists deny Jesus is Messiah (Hagee?)


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

In his second letter, John broadens the definition of antichrist to include deceiver.

Here's Vines on 'deceiver': "is, properly, an adjective, signifying "wandering, or leading astray, seducing," 1Ti 4:1, "seducing (spirits);" used as a noun, it denotes an impostor of the vagabond type, and so any kind of "deceiver" or corrupter, Mat 27:63; 2Cr 6:8; 2Jo 1:7 (twice), in the last of which the accompanying definite article necessitates the translation "the deceiver," RV. "

The deceiver (little horn?) and deceivers or seducing spirits.

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Has any corruption, departing from the faith, falling away, taken place? How would we know?

 

[Secundulus]

Has any corruption, departing from the faith, falling away, taken place? How would we know?

How about if a new faith sprang up, based upon the Christian Scriptures, that specifically states in their scriptures that Jesus is in no way divine and that to say or think he is divine is an abomination that will condemn your soul to eternal hell.

That faith exists today and has over a billion followers.

Furthermore, it has always and continues even today to kill Christians and Jews for their faith.

Furthermore, it has erected its own temple in the place of the sanctuary complete with inscriptions that deny the Christ is the Son of God.

Furthermore, they specifically claim that their founder here on earth is the Holy Spirit promised by Christ.

Furthermore, their religious symbol is exactly the same as the religious symbol of the Babylonian Religion.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

How about if a new faith sprang up, based upon the Christian Scriptures, that specifically states in their scriptures that Jesus is in no way divine and that to say or think he is divine is an abomination that will condemn your soul to eternal hell.

That faith exists today and has over a billion followers.

Furthermore, it has always and continues even today to kill Christians and Jews for their faith.

Furthermore, it has erected its own temple in the place of the sanctuary complete with inscriptions that deny the Christ is the Son of God.

Furthermore, they specifically claim that their founder here on earth is the Holy Spirit promised by Christ.

Furthermore, their religious symbol is exactly the same as the religious symbol of the Babylonian Religion.

I'd probably agree with that. The changes in the global power.. the rise of Russia, and Europe, then the Americas, causes people to forget what was going on before all that.. and that Christianity was on the road to being wiped off the earth totally.

 

[Kid Fish]

I can't believe this is even a serious topic of discussion. Wow, talk about schoolyard religiosity.

 

[stranger]

I can't believe this is even a serious topic of discussion. Wow, talk about schoolyard religiosity.

The source of the controversy is one of the major divisions of Xtianity , part of the proof of the separation of religion from God's truth , it is thus worth understanding why it exists :-

Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

The 'houses' fight it out with spin ['hermeneutics'] ignoring the saints' and Jesus' explanation of what they are doing and why , never seeing that neither side is true to every word of God, never seeing that no one is right bar the saints of Jesus ...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The irony, God's little 'jest' to teach men humility, is that they will be left to continue arguing who caused them all to get it wrong when Jesus simply does what he said, and only takes those who stopped sinning, the saints...

[Jesus , speaking of his return]:-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can't believe this is even a serious topic of discussion. Wow, talk about schoolyard religiosity.

On this board, there is a lot of things I can't believe that are posted