Absurdities of so called science

[Jester4kicks]

I thought I answered that already: 1104.

Could you explain how that response answers mine? Based on your previous position, I postulated two possible scenarios... and explained why neither scenario would work.

Based on your response, I can only assume that either;

A) You don't have a response to the information presented, or

B) You believe a third scenario is possible

So... Do you want to go back and address the options presented, or offer your third option?

 

[Jester4kicks]

I dont think av read your post jester.

I was actually hoping for input on that post from anyone here. I thought it was a very well structured argument, but nobody else seemed to have any thoughts on it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Could you explain how that response answers mine? Based on your previous position, I postulated two possible scenarios... and explained why neither scenario would work.

Based on your response, I can only assume that either;

A) You don't have a response to the information presented, or

B) You believe a third scenario is possible

So... Do you want to go back and address the options presented, or offer your third option?

Jester, in my opinion, you're just having fun with me.

I can't believe you walked right over my "third scenario" to post this.

If you want me to answer some other question, I'll be glad to, but right now I'm down to answering with QV's.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Jester, in my opinion, you're just having fun with me.

I can't believe you walked right over my "third scenario" to post this.

If you want me to answer some other question, I'll be glad to, but right now I'm down to answering with QV's.

I'm certainly not having fun with you.... trust me, you would know if I was... lollercats would be involved.

If you presented a third scenario, I must have missed it. Would you please clarify it?

As I understood it, you had stated that the whole of creation was made "together"... and then god stretched it outward.

I presented two possible scenarios based on that proposition. The first was that the distant galaxy in question formed after the expansion... the second was that the galaxy in question formed before the expansion.

I explained why neither scenario would work... and presented two possible options from that conclusion. The first was that the tests are correct and your proposition was wrong, and the second was that god created everything in such a way that mankind would be doomed to make observations about the universe that were not true... and that would make him a deceiver.

 

[AV1611VET]

I presented two possible scenarios based on that proposition. The first was that the distant galaxy in question formed after the expansion... the second was that the galaxy in question formed before the expansion.

I explained why neither scenario would work... and presented two possible options from that conclusion. The first was that the tests are correct and your proposition was wrong, and the second was that god created everything in such a way that mankind would be doomed to make observations about the universe that were not true... and that would make him a deceiver.

Jester, here is my scenario: 253.

If you think there's something wrong with it, show me specifically where I'm wrong.

Telling me something is wrong because it would make God out to be a deceiver is not going to cut it.

Telling me something is wrong because science says it doesn't happen that way is not going to cut it.

Show me specifically how God could not have done it the way I laid it out in that post --- (and remember: He's omnipotent) --- or don't expect me to respond.

 

[mpok1519]

science doesnt say it didnt happen....REALITY said it didnt happen.

 

[MoonLancer]

Show me specifically how God could not have done it the way I laid it out in that post --- (and remember: He's omnipotent) --- or don't expect me to respond.

That's silly. If he is god he could do it any way he wants and make anything seem like it is not.

However i think a more pertinent question is, why is a god who can do anything, any way, resort to fear and killing in order to get it done?

god of the ot is a very human god, with very human logic and motive, and works in very human like ways. ego, man created god.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Jester, here is my scenario: 253.

If you think there's something wrong with it, show me specifically where I'm wrong.

Telling me something is wrong because it would make God out to be a deceiver is not going to cut it.

Telling me something is wrong because science says it doesn't happen that way is not going to cut it.

Show me specifically how God could not have done it the way I laid it out in that post --- (and remember: He's omnipotent) --- or don't expect me to respond.

Ok, I read the post... but I'm still not sure how it changes anything.

Let's slow down and try to take this one step at a time. Maybe I'm just trying to tackle too much at once.

As you said, the bible states that god created everything in the palm of his hand and then stretched it all out. Please tell me if you already disagree with my summation of that point, I am not intending to oversimplify it.

If we accept that position, can we agree that there are these two possibilities?

Either

A) The distant galaxy in question was formed by god and was part of the universe when god stretched everything out, or

B) The distant galaxy formed after god stretched everything out.

Let's just see if we can at least agree that those are the two possibilities. That galaxy either formed before, or after, god stretched everything out.

Feel free to narrow it down to only one of those possibilities if you prefer. Also, I don't mean to present a false dichotomy, so if you think a third option exists for when that galaxy was formed, feel free to present it.

 

[AV1611VET]

A) The distant galaxy in question was formed by god and was part of the universe when god stretched everything out, or

This is correct --- God created this distant galaxy in question ex nihilo in the palm of His hand, and was part of the universe when He stretched it out.

BTW --- I have an appointment right now --- and will be back in about three hours.

 

[Jester4kicks]

This is correct --- God created this distant galaxy in question ex nihilo in the palm of His hand, and was part of the universe when He stretched it out.

BTW --- I have an appointment right now --- and will be back in about three hours.

Excellent! Before we move on, can I assume that you would say that all of the galaxies and stars we can see were created in the palm of god's hand at the same time as the galaxy I have been referring to?

(I just want to make sure there isn't some kind of criteria that you are using to determine things that were created by god in his palm, versus things the formed afterward. I don't want this to cause problems for us down the road)

 

[AV1611VET]

Excellent! Before we move on, can I assume that you would say that all of the galaxies and stars we can see were created in the palm of god's hand at the same time as the galaxy I have been referring to?

Keep in mind that I'm talking more about stars than I am galaxies --- and I realize that galaxies are made up of stars --- so I will say yes to the above.

All the stars and galaxies we can see were created in the palm of God's hand.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Keep in mind that I'm talking more about stars than I am galaxies --- and I realize that galaxies are made up of stars --- so I will say yes to the above.

All the stars and galaxies we can see were created in the palm of God's hand.

Very good.

Now, with those factors in mind, let's add in the maximum age of the light we are currently viewing. I'm going to default to you on this one, because we are still talking about your proposition here.

To that end, how old is the universe? It doesn't have to be exact, but I don't want to cite one number and upset you if that number is incorrect. As you can tell, if the universe is 6000 years old, then the light we are currently observing can only be 6000 years old.

Now, I understand that this might be one of those points we get hung up on... so I want to make sure we understand each other before we move on. As I stated, I need the age of the universe (according to the bible), and I need to make sure you understand why that age is important because it tells us the maximum "age" of the light we are viewing.

Please let me know if there are any questions.

 

[AV1611VET]

To that end, how old is the universe?

I'll go with 8 billion years old.

But recent information collected by the Hubble Space Telescope indicates that the universe may be newer-only 8 billion years old.

If I'm reading you right though, light itself is only 6100 years old --- maximum.

 

[Jester4kicks]

I'll go with 8 billion years old.

If I'm reading you right though, light itself is only 6100 years old --- maximum.

My apologies, I should have clarified the question. Not to imply you are taking this position, but I realize there is a school of thought regarding just how much time (as we understand it) passed during Genesis 1.

For our purposes, let me rephrase to ask how long ago it was that god stretched everything out to where it is today.

(Edit: Ok, I'll admit I'm curious... why did you default to some findings from Hubble for your answer? I thought you were taking the position that scientific observation wasn't useful in this regard?)

 

[Nathan Poe]

If I'm reading you right though, light itself is only 6100 years old --- maximum.

Embedded light?

 

[Nathan Poe]

All the stars and galaxies we can see were created in the palm of God's hand.

Left or right? Personally, I'd think the universe would have to be at least a two-handed job.

 

[AV1611VET]

For our purposes, let me rephrase to ask how long ago it was that god stretched everything out to where it is today.

This is a good question --- there are verses that say He "stretched" the Heavens (past tense)...

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out;

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

... and verses that say He is stretching the Heavens (present tense) ...

Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Chuck Missler identifies 14 verses that speak of God doing this.

In my opinion, He is still stretching the universe.

(Edit: Ok, I'll admit I'm curious... why did you default to some findings from Hubble for your answer? I thought you were taking the position that scientific observation wasn't useful in this regard?)

301.

 

[Jester4kicks]

This is a good question --- there are verses that say He "stretched" the Heavens (past tense)...... and verses that say He is stretching the Heavens (present tense) ...

Chuck Missler identifies 14 verses that speak of God doing this.

In my opinion, He is still stretching the universe.

I see. Ok, so we just have another variable to work with. That's ok. Although we may need to get something cleared up...

Taking a step back, our purpose for discussing this was your problem with the notion that big=old. You also made a comment in another post about there being "no such thing as 168,000 years ago".

In light of the previous comment, I need to understand if we're getting into an embedded-age discussion... or if you are trying to assert some other explanation for why we can see light from stars further than 6,000 light years away.

 

[AV1611VET]

In light of the previous comment, I need to understand if we're getting into an embedded-age discussion...

Nope --- so far, we haven't discussed anything that needs to have Embedded Age invoked as an explanation.

We're talking light, not rocks, and so Embedded Age does not apply.

... or if you are trying to assert some other explanation for why we can see light from stars further than 6,000 light years away.

Here's one explanation --- and I repeat one ad lib explanation for this --- and I'm making this up, too ---

We can see light from more than 6000 light years away because light traveled faster in Heaven, than in outer space.

Let me explain:

When God created the universe, He created it into the palm of His hand, and according to Genesis 1, the order of Creation goes as follows:

1. Heaven
2. Earth
3. Light

The source of that light, the stars themselves, don't even exist yet, and won't be spoken into existence for several hours.

So what is that light doing?

It is well on its way toward the earth, moving much faster through Heaven's "purer" medium.

Remember, according to Einstein, light is affected by gravity, and as such, gravity doesn't exist.

And even if gravity did exist, the only thing in all of existence with mass so far is the earth.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Here's one explanation --- and I repeat one ad lib explanation for this --- and I'm making this up, too ---

Fair enough, AV -- but if you're going to make up answers on the spot, you should be prepared to think about where those answers are going to lead you, and be ready to change them if they don't lead anywhere.

We can see light from more than 6000 light years away because light traveled faster in Heaven, than in outer space.

Interesting -- seeing as how outer space is a complete vacuum, with absolutely nothing to impede the light's movement, that would mean that Heaven would have to consist of -- less than nothing?

Of course, we know that extreme gravity can affect light as well, meaning that in order for it to reach us that much faster, there must be some very powerful gravity well on the other side of us -- possibly at the center of the universe -- pulling the light that much faster.

Of course, such a gravitational force would most likely be pulling us along for the ride as well, so that just won't do, would it?

Let me explain:

When God created the universe, He created it into the palm of His hand, and according to Genesis 1, the order of Creation goes as follows:

1. Heaven
2. Earth
3. Light

The source of that light, the stars themselves, don't even exist yet, and won't be spoken into existence for several hours.

Meaning God created an effect before a cause -- something which, of course, is well within his power to do, but why would He?

So what is that light doing?

It is well on its way toward the earth, moving much faster through Heaven's "purer" medium.

Again, "purer" than what? Nothingness?

Remember, according to Einstein, light is affected by gravity, and as such, gravity doesn't exist.

Which effectively shoots down my previous notion of a gravity well atthe center ofthe universe pulling light towards us -- meaning now there's nothing that can speed up the light to the ludicrous speeds necessary for your hypothesis to fit the facts.

And even if gravity did exist, the only thing in all of existence with mass so far is the earth.

Which doesn't have nearly enough gravity to get the job done.

See what happens when you try to sound scientific, AV?