a question for those who think Catholics worship Mary.

[MoNiCa4316]

Would you say that the intention is important in worship, or only the external action.

If I bow down before God yet I hate Him in my heart and don't believe in Him..am I worshipping Him? If I bow before God with no intention to worship Him..is it still worship?

If not...

then why is bowing before Mary WITHOUT the intention to worship her, an act of worship?

why this double standard?

what makes something an act of worship... is it really bowing, or singing, or praying? OR, is it the intention? If you think that the external actions make it worship... well that's very confusing. Doesn't it mean that if a man proposes to a woman, he's worshipping her if he gets down on his knee. Yet we see this happening all the time. Also, prayer is just TALKING to someone.. it's not an act of worship at all!! ALL prayers eventually go to God... He decides how they should be answered... but if you pray to Mary, you're just talking to her, and asking her to pray, just like you would ask a friend on earth. Why this double standard, I don't understand.. why is asking your friend to pray for you not worship, but asking Mary to pray for you, is? it's the SAME.. do you think that Mary is somehow "less real" than your friend? or dead, perhaps? hasn't Christ overcome death?

Peace

 

[Sphinx777]

Worship usually refers to acts of religious devotion typically directed to one or more deities. It is the informal term in English for what sociologists of religion call cultus—traditional beliefs and practices, the individual study of which is one of the chief concerns of theology.

An act of worship may be performed individually, within informal groups, or as part of a formal meeting. Religious worship occurs in a variety of locations including houses, rented venues, out in the open, or in purpose-built structures identified as places of worship. Most religious traditions place an emphasis on regular worship and many organize meetings for the purpose at frequent intervals, often daily or weekly.

Evelyn Underhill defines worship thus: "The adoring acknowledgment of all that lies beyond us—the glory that fills heaven and earth. It is the response that conscious beings make to their Creator, to the Eternal Reality from which they came forth; to God, however they may think of Him or recognize Him, and whether He be realized through religion, through nature, through history, through science, art, or human life and character."

In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon, worthscripe), worship may on occasion refer to an attitude towards someone of immensely elevated social status, such as a lord or a monarch, or, more loosely, towards an individual, such as a hero or one's lover.

Practices in worship vary between religions but typically include one or more of the following:

* prayer;
* sacrifice;
* rituals;
* meditation;
* holidays, festivals;
* sacraments;
* pilgrimages;
* music or singing;
* dance;
* eating food;
* readings from sacred books;
* listening to a talk or sermon;
* the construction of temples or shrines;
* the creation of idols of the deity.
* private acts of devotion

These elements may be practiced by all the worshipers, or by a designated leader.

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [λατρεια]), which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. Protestant Christians question whether such a distinction is always maintained in actual devotional practice, especially at the level of folk religion.

Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Sunni Islam hold that for all practical purposes veneration should be considered the same as prayer; Orthodox Judaism (arguably with the exception of some Chasidic practices), orthodox Sunni Islam, and most kinds of Protestantism forbid veneration of saints or angels, classifying these actions as akin to idolatry.

Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that many actions classified as patriotic by Protestant groups, such as saluting a flag, are equivalent to worship and are therefore considered idolatrous as well.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I disagree with that Sphinx.. worship is about the intention, not just the action.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Here's my opinion:

As you say, I don't think Catholics intentionally worship Mary, but revere her instead. I think God knows the intent and the heart of the Catholic and is pleased with this respect shown to the mother of our Messiah.

For me to do the same would be wrong because it does look like worship to me. So God would see in my heart that I knew it was wrong. I personally feel like it's idol worship.

So wrong for me! Right for you!

 

[tansy]

Yes, I see the point you're making - to put it another way, supposing hypothetically, the prime minister or president announced themselves as being divine, and we had to physically bow before them (not forgetting that bowing in the past was a form of respect), on pain of death or one,s family getting killed if one refused - would that count as worship, if inside one didn't believe they were divine or worthy of worship in that sense? In other words, woould that be ok if the intention of worship wasn't there?
Maybe one has to define worship further than what Sphinx posted.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Here's my opinion:

As you say, I don't think Catholics intentionally worship Mary, but revere her instead. I think God knows the intent and the heart of the Catholic and is pleased with this respect shown to the mother of our Messiah.

For me to do the same would be wrong because it does look like worship to me. So God would see in my heart that I knew it was wrong. I personally feel like it's idol worship.

So wrong for me! Right for you!

oki, I see what you mean.

I agree that God looks at people's hearts first

Yes, I see the point you're making - to put it another way, supposing hypothetically, the prime minister or president announced themselves as being divine, and we had to physically bow before them (not forgetting that bowing in the past was a form of respect), on pain of death or one,s family getting killed if one refused - would that count as worship, if inside one didn't believe they were divine or worthy of worship in that sense? In other words, woould that be ok if the intention of worship wasn't there?
Maybe one has to define worship further than what Sphinx posted.

I think in that case, it MIGHT be a denial of Christ, cause in bowing to the "divine" prime minister/president you're agreeing they're divine. There are actually early Church martyrs that died instead of bowing to pagan idols.

However, if you lived a thousand years ago and met the King, you WOULD bow before him, and no one would think it's worship at all!

that goes back to the intention..

We're not taught in the Church that Mary is divine. We don't believe she's divine. We don't intend to worship her. So IMO, it's neither a denial of Christ, or worship. but just showing respect in a particular way.

thanks for the replies!

God bless

 

[Kris10leigh]

Don't they still bow before the Queen in England? I could be wrong. That's respect though.

Tough call if someone bowed before a self-proclaimed deity under duress or threat of death. I have to believe God would understand. Even Peter denied Jesus for fear and I'm pretty sure he was forgiven.

 

[hogndog]

The Church of Rome Not A Church of Jesus Christ But The Cult of Mary
Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley

Rome is not the Church of Jesus Christ let alone the true Church, but rather the synagogue of Mary, a cult of papal invention.

In the true Church of Jesus Christ our Lord Jesus Christ has all the preeminence. In the Church of Rome Mary, by order of the Roman Antichrists, has all the preeminence.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are demoted to secondary places by the order of the self-professed infallible popes. The entire Godhead must stand aside for Mary – note it must be emphasized not Mary, the virgin mother of the Christ Child but a woman of Rome’s own invention as far apart from the Mary of the New Testament as heaven is from hell.

It is my task to lay the foundation of Bible truth in contrast to the inventions of Popery on this subject to trace the continuing development of Rome’s falsehoods about Mary and her increasing advancement; and then to consider the exaltation of Mary to the jettisoning of the true doctrine of God.

It will be my task to discuss how Rome exalts her Mary at the expense of God the Father and God the Son.

MARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT THE MARY OF ROME

The Bible Revelation of Mary the Mother of our Lord is quite easily summarized.

The New Testament has little to say of Mary. Her last recorded words the Church of Rome would do well to head, ‘Whatsoever He (the Lord) saith, do it.’ Then silence. No further record of her speech.

During our Lord’s ministry we read of her and her sons and daughters seeking Him and this drew from his lips the rebuke, ‘Who is my mother and who are my brethren?’ Matt. 12:46-50.

Mary was present at the Cross-where Christ disassociated Himself from her giving John the duty of sonship.

Notice, Christ never addressed her as ‘Mother’ but always as ‘Woman’

She is lastly mentioned as being an attendant at the pre-Pentecostal upper room prayer meeting. Professor Boettner states:

‘The apostles did not show her any special honour. Peter, Paul, John and James do not mention her name even once in the epistles which they wrote to the churches. John took care of her until she died, but he does not mention her in any of his three epistles or in the book of Revelation.

When the church was instituted at Pentecost there was only one name given among men whereby we must be saved, that of Jesus (Acts 4:12). Wherever the eyes of the church are directed to the abundance of grace, there is no mention of Mary. Surely this silence is a rebuke to those who would build a system of salvation around her. God has given us all the record we need concerning Mary, and that record does not indicate that worship or veneration in any form is to be given to her.

How complete, then, is the falsehood of Romanist that gives primary worship and devotion to her!’

To sum up, Mary was the Divinely chosen woman to be the channel for the incarnation in flesh of the second person of the Holy and Divine Trinity, God the Son.

For the privileged of that special honour, however, she has been termed in the following manner in the Scriptures, ‘Blessed art thou amongst woman’ – not above or before or above.

In the earliest days of the New Testament Church that scriptural view was upheld and affirmed.

With the apostasising of truth and the development of the Papacy, Rome commenced her invention and dogma of the cult of Mary and has now produced the figure of the Roman Mary, another Mary unrecognizable as the Mary of Scripture - Mary the mannequin of the Roman catwalk. The Mother of God is Rome’s term. She is Rome’s supreme goddess and deity, her greatest idol. Mariolatry has become the greatest idolatry of the Papal system.

Rome glories in

1. HER PECULIAR SINLESSNESS
2. HER ETERNAL VIRGINITY
3. HER CO-REDEMPTORIST STATUS
4. HER IMMACULATE CONCEPTION
5. HER UNLIMITED MIRACLES
6. HER BODIY ASSUMPTION
7. HER CORONATION AS QUEEN OF HEAVEN
8. HER EVER DEVELOPING POSITION AS HIGHER THAN GOD
9. HER MANY FEASTS
10. HER MANY TITLES

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary1

 

[Kris10leigh]

So, Hogndog, do you just carry that handy little article around in your pocket to wield at a Catholic like a dagger? For shame, for shame.

How do you feel in your own words?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Don't they still bow before the Queen in England? I could be wrong. That's respect though.

I think that probably they do

Tough call if someone bowed before a self-proclaimed deity under duress or threat of death. I have to believe God would understand. Even Peter denied Jesus for fear and I'm pretty sure he was forgiven.

the way I understand, the person would have to repent.. Peter felt pretty horrible afterwards. God is merciful though.

The Church of Rome Not A Church of Jesus Christ But The Cult of Mary
Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley

Rome is not the Church of Jesus Christ let alone the true Church, but rather the synagogue of Mary, a cult of papal invention.

In the true Church of Jesus Christ our Lord Jesus Christ has all the preeminence. In the Church of Rome Mary, by order of the Roman Antichrists, has all the preeminence.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are demoted to secondary places by the order of the self-professed infallible popes. The entire Godhead must stand aside for Mary – note it must be emphasized not Mary, the virgin mother of the Christ Child but a woman of Rome’s own invention as far apart from the Mary of the New Testament as heaven is from hell.

It is my task to lay the foundation of Bible truth in contrast to the inventions of Popery on this subject to trace the continuing development of Rome’s falsehoods about Mary and her increasing advancement; and then to consider the exaltation of Mary to the jettisoning of the true doctrine of God.

It will be my task to discuss how Rome exalts her Mary at the expense of God the Father and God the Son.

MARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT THE MARY OF ROME

The Bible Revelation of Mary the Mother of our Lord is quite easily summarized.

The New Testament has little to say of Mary. Her last recorded words the Church of Rome would do well to head, ‘Whatsoever He (the Lord) saith, do it.’ Then silence. No further record of her speech.

During our Lord’s ministry we read of her and her sons and daughters seeking Him and this drew from his lips the rebuke, ‘Who is my mother and who are my brethren?’ Matt. 12:46-50.

Mary was present at the Cross-where Christ disassociated Himself from her giving John the duty of sonship.

Notice, Christ never addressed her as ‘Mother’ but always as ‘Woman’

She is lastly mentioned as being an attendant at the pre-Pentecostal upper room prayer meeting. Professor Boettner states:

‘The apostles did not show her any special honour. Peter, Paul, John and James do not mention her name even once in the epistles which they wrote to the churches. John took care of her until she died, but he does not mention her in any of his three epistles or in the book of Revelation.

When the church was instituted at Pentecost there was only one name given among men whereby we must be saved, that of Jesus (Acts 4:12). Wherever the eyes of the church are directed to the abundance of grace, there is no mention of Mary. Surely this silence is a rebuke to those who would build a system of salvation around her. God has given us all the record we need concerning Mary, and that record does not indicate that worship or veneration in any form is to be given to her.

How complete, then, is the falsehood of Romanist that gives primary worship and devotion to her!’

To sum up, Mary was the Divinely chosen woman to be the channel for the incarnation in flesh of the second person of the Holy and Divine Trinity, God the Son.

For the privileged of that special honour, however, she has been termed in the following manner in the Scriptures, ‘Blessed art thou amongst woman’ – not above or before or above.

In the earliest days of the New Testament Church that scriptural view was upheld and affirmed.

With the apostasising of truth and the development of the Papacy, Rome commenced her invention and dogma of the cult of Mary and has now produced the figure of the Roman Mary, another Mary unrecognizable as the Mary of Scripture - Mary the mannequin of the Roman catwalk. The Mother of God is Rome’s term. She is Rome’s supreme goddess and deity, her greatest idol. Mariolatry has become the greatest idolatry of the Papal system.

Rome glories in

1. HER PECULIAR SINLESSNESS
2. HER ETERNAL VIRGINITY
3. HER CO-REDEMPTORIST STATUS
4. HER IMMACULATE CONCEPTION
5. HER UNLIMITED MIRACLES
6. HER BODIY ASSUMPTION
7. HER CORONATION AS QUEEN OF HEAVEN
8. HER EVER DEVELOPING POSITION AS HIGHER THAN GOD
9. HER MANY FEASTS
10. HER MANY TITLES

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary1

thanks for the misinformation. It's always funny when non Catholics try to tell us what WE believe. I won't even respond. The article's just dumb, very sorry, but no other word for it.

Peace.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

*sigh*

for the record, we believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was created by God and is not equal to Him. We believe she is a creature and not a goddess. She exists to glorify God. There's more in the Church about God than about Mary. But everything we say about Mary is for His glory, and since she honors Him so much, yea we talk about her a lot. We're grateful God gave us such a loving Mother in Heaven who prays for us. We think it's amazing that He would raise a humble woman above the angels and ask her to bring His Son into the world. He made her sinless so that Christ would not be dishonored in her womb. The reason there's little about Mary in the BIble is because this reflects what a humble life she lived. She was unknown during her life, and her glory was revealed later. That is beautiful and shows the importance of humility and purity. Today, Our Lady is in Heaven, praying for us and leading us closer to Christ, telling us to love and obey Him in everything.

So that's some of what we believe about Mary.

 

[Neriah]

The Church of Rome Not A Church of Jesus Christ But The Cult of Mary

So, Hogndog, do you just carry that handy little article around in your pocket to wield at a Catholic like a dagger? For shame, for shame.

I bet Hog does, along with a suitcase full of Jack Chick tracts.

 

[lilrose]

It appears Mr Paisley lacks manners and respect:

From WIKI

In 1988, when Pope John Paul 2 delivered a speech to the european Parliament, Paisley shouted "I Denounce you as the AntiChrst!" and held up a red poster reading "Pope John Paul II ANTICHRIST" in black letters. John Paul continued with his address after Paisley was ejected from the hemicyc by fellow MEPs

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I bet Hog does, along with a suitcase full of Jack Chick tracts.

Oh, Lord, not Jack Chick

 

[Musa80]

The Church of Rome Not A Church of Jesus Christ But The Cult of Mary
Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley

(snip hateful nonsense)
Notice, Christ never addressed her as ‘Mother’ but always as ‘Woman’
(snip more hateful nonsense)

It always seemed odd to me that some use this as an example of how the Blessed Virgin Mary was not special, when I got the exact opposite understanding, long before I ever entered a Church as a Christian. I always immediately equated it with..

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Guess that's what I get for reading the Bible index to maps instead of one cherry picked passage at a time.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Worship usually refers to acts of religious devotion typically directed to one or more deities. It is the informal term in English for what sociologists of religion call cultus—traditional beliefs and practices, the individual study of which is one of the chief concerns of theology.

An act of worship may be performed individually, within informal groups, or as part of a formal meeting. Religious worship occurs in a variety of locations including houses, rented venues, out in the open, or in purpose-built structures identified as places of worship. Most religious traditions place an emphasis on regular worship and many organize meetings for the purpose at frequent intervals, often daily or weekly.

Evelyn Underhill defines worship thus: "The adoring acknowledgment of all that lies beyond us—the glory that fills heaven and earth. It is the response that conscious beings make to their Creator, to the Eternal Reality from which they came forth; to God, however they may think of Him or recognize Him, and whether He be realized through religion, through nature, through history, through science, art, or human life and character."

In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon,worthscripe), worship may on occasion refer to an attitude towards someone of immensely elevated social status, such as a lord or a monarch, or, more loosely, towards an individual, such as a hero or one's lover.

Practices in worship vary between religions but typically include one or more of the following:

* prayer;
* sacrifice;
* rituals;
* meditation;
* holidays, festivals;
* sacraments;
* pilgrimages;
* music or singing;
* dance;
* eating food;
* readings from sacred books;
* listening to a talk or sermon;
* the construction of temples or shrines;
* the creation of idols of the deity.
* private acts of devotion

These elements may be practiced by all the worshipers, or by a designated leader.

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [λατρεια]), which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. Protestant Christians question whether such a distinction is always maintained in actual devotional practice, especially at the level of folk religion.

Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Sunni Islam hold that for all practical purposes veneration should be considered the same as prayer; Orthodox Judaism (arguably with the exception of some Chasidic practices), orthodox Sunni Islam, and most kinds of Protestantism forbid veneration of saints or angels, classifying these actions as akin to idolatry.

Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that many actions classified as patriotic by Protestant groups, such as saluting a flag, are equivalent to worship and are therefore considered idolatrous as well.

Sphinx thanks for this post.

All too often we bicker amongst ourselves and it is because two people have two compeltely ways of understanding a word. What that means is that these two people are not hearing what is coming from the other's heart and that IMO is false judgment.

BTW, I love Mary the mother of God so greatly that she is my mother too.

Thank you Mary for being there for me and all of Jesus' brothers and sisters. You rock!

 

[hogndog]

Are we bashing the messenger or the message?

Hogndog

 

[Sphinx777]

Are we bashing the messenger or the message?

Hogndog

The Hierophant (V), in some decks named The Pope, is the fifth trump or Major Arcana card in most traditional Tarot decks. It is used in game playing as well as in divination.

A. E. Waite was a key figure in the development of modern Tarot interpretations. However, not all interpretations follow his theology. Please remember that all Tarot decks used for divination and oracular inquiry, et cetera, are crafted and interpreted through personal experience: stated differently, they afford and furnish different faces or aspects of Truth.

Some frequent keywords are:

* Education ----- Knowledge ----- Status quo ----- Institution
* Conservatism ----- Discipline ----- Maturity ----- Formality
* Deception ----- Power ----- Respect ----- Duality
* Social convention ----- Belief system ----- Group identification
* Experience ----- Tradition ----- Naïve

In many modern packs, the Hierophant is iconographically represented with right hand raised in what is known esoterically as the blessing or benediction, with two fingers pointing skyward and two pointing down, thus forming a bridge between Heaven and Earth reminiscent of that formed by the body of The Hanged Man. The Hierophant is thus a true “pontiff”, in that he is the builder of the bridge between deity and humanity.

In most iconographic depictions, the Hierophant is seen seated on a throne between two pillars symbolizing Law and Liberty or obedience and disobedience, according to different interpretations. He wears a triple crown, and the keys to Heaven are at his feet.

Often referred to in older decks as "The Pope", and occasionally as "Jupiter". The papacy was not just a religious force, but was a political and military force as well. When the tarot was invented, the Pope controlled a large portion of central Italy. Renaissance culture did not question the abstract ideal of the Pope as God's human representative on Earth. In Tarot of Marseilles, he wears a red cape and a blue robe, in contrast to The Papess, who wears a blue cape and red robe.

The more commonly encountered modern name "Hierophant" is due to Antoine Court de Gébelin, and was the title of a chief priest in the Eleusinian mysteries (an ancient Greek priest who interpreted sacred mysteries), and is usually regarded as the spiritual counterpart of the temporal Emperor card.

The card stands for religion and orthodox theology, as well as representing traditional education, the “Man of high social standing”. These interpretations merely scratch the surface of the card, however. The Pope card also represents the Biblical story of God’s creation of man and woman. Likewise, he is frequently most associated with the Deceiver and Power over others.

Some interpretations also suggest a link between the card and the myth of Isis and Osiris—a claim made about many cards. Some say the card corresponds to the astrological sign of Taurus; others Sagittarius or Leo. Yet another association is with the sign Cancer. In many primitive cultures (Native American, Siberian) the Hierophant retains the role as spiritual guide, wearing here the mask of a shaman who is the teacher of holy things. The mythological association is with the Coyote or Trickster God, one who is a teacher, a benefactor for the spiritual student, but who is often playful or mischievous. Cancer has an astrological connection with the Moon, night, and the occult, and as a water sign Cancerians have the reputation of being emotional, empathic, compassionate which translates to caring nurturer, good parent and teacher.

The Hierophant is the card representing organized religion—any religion. Its positive aspects are about the positive aspects of the relevant religion. Its negative aspects are the over crystallization of rituals, formulas and mind strangling beliefs. For example—many religions state: no drugs. No treatment for cancer, no antibiotics for disease, no painkillers for an operation. This can be life denying.

“Hierophant” literally means “the one who teaches the holy things.” Ideally, the Hierophant prepares the Querant spiritually for the adventure of life. It also represents individuation; the point where the child starts to understand the boundaries between the self and the other; family and the community, me and thee. And the point where the individual starts constructing their own identity—consciously, unconsciously, or as shaped by exterior forces. Works of Sigmund Freud and Michel Foucault explores these forces.

The Hierophant is Key 5 of the Major Arcana. Five represents the essence of things as they are—consider the word “quintessence” from the Latin words for five and nature. It is also the number of the senses; sight, hearing, taste, feeling, smell. The Hierophant stands athwart the world of the senses and the world of meaning.

It is related through cross sums (the sum of the digits) with Key 14: Temperance. The Hierophant presents the lessons of heaven to earth; Temperance guides the soul from this world to the underworld.

Some authorities say that the Hierophant generally represents assistance, friendship, good advice, alliances (including marriages), and religious interests. Reversed; it often refers to bad advice, lies, and persecution.

Others say that it represents the first level of understanding. When it appears in a tarot spread, it is a warning to the Querant to reexamine his or her understanding of the meaning of things; of the structure of the world; of the powers that be. Watch out for hypocrisy.

The negative aspect of The Hierophant is well illustrated by the myth of Procrustes. Procrustes was a man (or a monster) living in the mountains of Greece back in mythic times. He would invite weary travelers to come into his home, wash the dust off their feet, have a meal, and allow them to lie down on his bed. If they were too big for his bed, he’d cut them to size; if they were too small; he’d stretch them to fit. At last, Theseus came through those mountains and accepted Procrustes’s seemingly kind offer. When Procrustes tried to cut him to fit, Theseus at last slew him, making the road safe. In this way, the Hierophant is like Freud’s superconscious. It shapes us, sometimes brutally. Sometimes, this shaping is necessary for us to become who we are. Sometimes, it’s merely the replication of historic cruelties. Freud opined that the superconscious is the internalization of the parents. The Hierophant may represent the parents, living in the Querant.

The Rider-Waite-Smith deck explicitly connects the Hierophant with the Ten of Swords. The dead man lying face down on the beach, penetrated by ten swords, has his hand in the same position of blessing as the Hierophant, perhaps hinting that the artist believed that the path of the Hierophant leads ultimately to death; a sanctified death, but death nonetheless.

 

[Musa80]

Sphinx, while I typically enjoy the added clarification your posts bring, wikipedia is wrong on this one. The depiction of the Heirophant as the Pope is extremely modern and very distasteful. Traditionally the Heirophant is depicted as a wise old sage who offers many lessons. Most often he was drawn as a hermit. That can hardly be aligned with the Papacy. Don't ask how I know this, please.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Are we bashing the messenger or the message?

Hogndog

The message you brought in your first post was both false and rude, so my answer is: BOTH