"Embedded Age" and Why it's Wrong

[Cabal]

AV, I attempted to understand your proposition, but when I tried to rephrase it to you, you responded with lunch meat. I did not make a joke about your beliefs, and I did not provide an ad hominem, but I received inanity back telling me neither if I had your belief right or wrong, or why. By saying you were telling us the difference, when my experience in this thread has been you have had no such interest in doing so is ridiculous.

As Nathan Poe pointed out to me in a recent infamous thread, I believe you're making a few mistakes there

 

[ragarth]

I didn't understand a word of your post, Ragarth --- and to be honest --- I thought it a little crass of you to be injecting scientfic theory, or whatever that stuff was, into an explanation that is so blame easy to understand.

Once again, the Creation Week is not --- repeat: NOT --- science --- it is history, and [all] your science can go to Helsinki for all I care.

I'm sorry my science offends you (but it's not science per se, rather it's an abstraction of mathematics), but I wasn't trying to understand creation week, I was trying to understand your interpretation of embedded age/omphalos or whatever you want me to call it. This is how I understand things, and to ensure my understanding I take what others say and repeat it back in my own words. When I read your post it sounded like you were stating that God created time in the past as well as the future and so that was what I was trying to describe. Think of it like this:

Time is wooden pole, to the left it goes back in time, to the right it goes forward. God created the pole, but was at the point 6000 years ago when he did so. At the same time he created everything to the left and right, thereby actually creating time instead of just the illusion of time. It'd be like me creating a puppy right now as well as the puppy's actual history. Up until this point the puppy did not exist, but now that I've created the puppy, people met him yesterday.

 

[AV1611VET]

Time is wooden pole, to the left it goes back in time, to the right it goes forward. God created the pole, but was at the point 6000 years ago when he did so. At the same time he created everything to the left and right, thereby actually creating time instead of just the illusion of time.

Time has got nothing to do with Embedded Age --- in fact, its absence is what makes Embedded Age what it is.

One second, there's nothing --- the next second, there's a 4.57 billion-year-old earth - (and not even a sun yet to revolve around).

Time itself has only been in existence for 6100 years.

 

[ragarth]

Time has got nothing to do with Embedded Age --- in fact, its absence is what makes Embedded Age what it is.

One second, there's nothing --- the next second, there's a 4.57 billion-year-old earth - (and not even a sun yet to revolve around).

Time itself has only been in existence for 6100 years.

So is the 4.57 billion years real or not? Do we just think there is 4.57 billion years of history there when there actually isn't, or did God actually create 4.57 billion years and let the earth age for that period of time?

 

[AV1611VET]

So is the 4.57 billion years real or not?

Yes --- it is real.

Do we just think there is 4.57 billion years of history there when there actually isn't, or did God actually create 4.57 billion years and let the earth age for that period of time?

The earth didn't "age" --- it came into existence "old".

Did Adam go through an aging process from 1-day-old to 30?

No --- Adam was never a teenager.

 

[ragarth]

Yes --- it is real.The earth didn't "age" --- it came into existence "old".

Did Adam go through an aging process from 1-day-old to 30?

No --- Adam was never a teenager.

And am I correct in assuming that Adam did not have memories of being 3 years old even though he was never 3 years old then?

 

[AV1611VET]

And am I correct in assuming that Adam did not have memories of being 3 years old even though he was never 3 years old then?

Yes.

 

[ragarth]

Yes.

Don't take this the wrong way, but memory is a record of history, therefore, if Adam had memory of a time before creation, then that is embedded history as I understand the term. This is different than what I had previously thought you meant, so I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

 

[MoonLancer]

history and age are connected. you cant have one without the other.

Only you want this to be so in order to justify your ridged view of the bible..

But remember what happens when one redefines the words one use to define the world.

 

[Freodin]

I can see how it is with you guys.

I recently asked my wife if she had any problems whatsoever with Embedded Age, and she said, "none".

As I have said before, the only ones who seem to have problems with this, is you guys.

I have a whole church full of people who either nod, or say, "Amen", when the pastor preaches this stuff.

I know a lot of people who DO have these problems... and can, as I did, explain them.
And I also do know a lot of people who don´t see any problems with anything... they are drilled to say "Amen" to everything.

I can't help it if you guys don't understand --- especially when you make jokes, etc. between explanations, call God a liar and a deceiver, and throw ad hominems my way.And yet I've clearly said that Embedded Age is maturity without history. I wouldn't have to specify "without" if this wasn't a special case, but it is a one-time, one-week, act of omnipotence that not even the angels can repeat.Here it is --- please note yet again my exclusion of the passage of time:

• maturity without history

You can repeat that as many times as you want: it does not make sense. It´s a phrase, nothing more.

Now what does it mean?
Maturity is a state, a state that people connect with age, because the only way that we know something can gain maturity is by having matured. Maturing is a process that works over time, passing of time which implies history.

Now you continue to talk about Adam the mature 30year old. You state that Adam was created "30 year old".
The reason why you do so is because YOU connect "being 30 years old" with "being mature"... but this is an invalid conclusion. You can only do that because you have to common human experience that humans who have lived for 30 years are likely to be "mature".

But this conclusion is not necessary: a 15 year old can be mature, a 30 year old does not have to be mature... and an 90 year old is still mature. The difference is one of AGE - the passing of time... something that you want to do away with.

So how do you arive at the notion that Adam was created 30 years old... not 20, not 40, not 90? You do so from your own notion of what "mature" means to you... nothing else.

Now how do you arrive at the idea that the earth was created 4.57 billion years old? You cannot have an idea what a "mature" planet should look like... what "age" it should have. You take this number from science.

But how do scientists arive at that age? They do by looking at processes that happened and left traces, processes that take a certain time. They do by looking at history!

REPEAT: SCIENTISTS GET THE AGE OF THE EARTH FROM LOOKING AT HER HISTORY!

So when you claim that the earth was 4.57 billion old when it was created 6000 years ago, you have already admitted that it was created WITH history.

 

[consol]

And I also do know a lot of people who don´t see any problems with anything... they are drilled to say "Amen" to everything.

NEWS FLASH...NEWS FLASH...NEWS FLASH.....It's called RELIGION,
and people don't analyse religion they just believe it and say 'AMEN'.

AV believes in 'embedded age', he's not asking you to believe it,
and AV is too far gone to change anyway, it's the kids who need to be targeted,
make religion appear crazy and un-cool to the kids, make them laugh at religion, as we do,
(the older ones will love it and call it persecution)
because once they have been captured they go beyond every ones reach, it's up to themselves then,
all we can do is feel sorry for them, and feel sad for what's been done to them.

Remember, religious people do not analyse their religion, it's against the rules to analyse it,
there are so many 'Thou shalt not' verses in the bible placed there deliberately to stop them,
they have had years and years to find the answers to doubt and back sliding.
and have really made the punishments severe for believers, it's a joke to us, but it's real for them.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't take this the wrong way, but memory is a record of history, therefore, if Adam had memory of a time before creation, then that is embedded history as I understand the term. This is different than what I had previously thought you meant, so I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

No problem --- sorry for being curt.

 

[AV1611VET]

history and age are connected. you cant have one without the other.

History is generated when events occur w/i the passage of time. This is not the nature of something created ex nihilo. Adam had nothing to look back on.

But remember what happens when one redefines the words one use to define the world.

What word am I redefining?

I can tell you, without looking, that I'm using definition #4 in answers.com for the word "old".

 

[AV1611VET]

I know a lot of people who DO have these problems... and can, as I did, explain them.
And I also do know a lot of people who don´t see any problems with anything... they are drilled to say "Amen" to everything.

And which category do I belong, in your humble opinion?

You can repeat that as many times as you want: it does not make sense. It´s a phrase, nothing more.

Maybe to you --- but to me it's truth --- in writing.

Now you continue to talk about Adam the mature 30year old. You state that Adam was created "30 year old".
The reason why you do so is because YOU connect "being 30 years old" with "being mature"... but this is an invalid conclusion.

It is, huh?

Tell me, what history did Adam have the day he was created?

Did he, in your opinion, remember his teen years? His infant years?

Please answer this.

 

[ragarth]

No problem --- sorry for being curt.

Thanks, I'm going to bow out of this discussion here. I was barking up the wrong tree so my previous conclusions are for naught. I might slip back in if the topic moves on to something else that interests me.

 

[samphillipssr]

Rom 3:4 - " God forbid: yea, LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

God is true and the KJV Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks, I'm going to bow out of this discussion here. I was barking up the wrong tree so my previous conclusions are for naught. I might slip back in if the topic moves on to something else that interests me.

I probably should bow out too.

I don't have all year to wait on BananaSlug to tell us why Embedded Age is wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Rom 3:4 - " God forbid: yea, LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

God is true and the KJV Bible.

 

[Freodin]

And which category do I belong, in your humble opinion?Maybe to you --- but to me it's truth --- in writing.It is, huh?

As your posts... and the one that agree with you... show: you belong to the "Amen" kind. You say it, that settles it. Case closed.

Bad way to find truth.

Tell me, what history did Adam have the day he was created?

Did he, in your opinion, remember his teen years? His infant years?

Please answer this.

You are asking the wrong questions: I don´t believe that a person created ex nihilo does have any history...

... but neither does he have any age.

 

[AV1611VET]

As your posts... and the one that agree with you... show: you belong to the "Amen" kind. You say it, that settles it. Case closed.

Bad way to find truth.


You are asking the wrong questions: I don´t believe that a person created ex nihilo does have any history...

... but neither does he have any age.

So you are YEC?