• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does God desire the salvation of ALL people?

Status
Not open for further replies.

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
70,909
7,900
Western New York
✟150,408.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
He gave his son so that ANYONE who believes in him and follows his will can be saved.


God wants us to follow his will, but he won't force us.

We could keep our children from getting hit by a car by locking them in a cage. Is that love?

God created us in his image with the ability to FREELY love him.

This is what he wants from us, but he can't force us to love.

Firstly, your starting point is chestertonrules' definition for love. It is a perverted definition (as is everyone's) because man is fallen. We only understand love how we understand it, and we use that definition for love as if it were God's definition, but it isn't!

Secondly, WE ARE FALLEN, AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING FREELY! You can't go back to the Garden of Eden and continue from there as if nothing has happened! WE ARE FALLEN! EVERYTHING IS PERVERTED! Including the way we perceive God as evidenced by the way we want to replace God's needs and will with our own.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
But we can see God's love; it is fundamentally scandalous to us. Christ voluntarily goes to death on the cross to save what - us ! Thieves, liars, murderers - which are we not ?
That is a depth of love that embraces the decrepit, the debased, and embraces these unto death. We go to war, sacrifice to protect the "good guys", and we consider the good guys to be our team. Do we sacrifice for the "bad guys" ? Do we give our lives voluntarily for the cruel, the heartless ?

The Trinity is the exhibit of love. The cross is the definition of love - and the cross was sacrifice for the wretched. This is the depth of sacrifice, and the majesty and sovereignty of the love of God.

The question is, do we accept it; do we accept this Godly love ?
Or do we prefer the fallen form ?
 
Upvote 0

chestertonrules

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2007
8,747
515
Texas
✟11,733.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Firstly, your starting point is chestertonrules' definition for love. It is a perverted definition (as is everyone's) because man is fallen. We only understand love how we understand it, and we use that definition for love as if it were God's definition, but it isn't!

Secondly, WE ARE FALLEN, AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING FREELY! You can't go back to the Garden of Eden and continue from there as if nothing has happened! WE ARE FALLEN! EVERYTHING IS PERVERTED! Including the way we perceive God as evidenced by the way we want to replace God's needs and will with our own.


We don't need to argue about a definition for love. It is an english word! If you want to redefine it, then give me a definition. Until then, let's use this:

love A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.


Do you deny that Jesus restored our relationship with God? We are back to the status of Adam and Eve. We now have the ability to choose or reject God' grace.

Jesus reunited us with God. Now we can pick up our cross and follow or reject God's grace.


I know I keep posting some of the same verses, buy you keep ignoring them.

Please tell me why you don't believe these verses:

Since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
30,827
9,814
NW England
✟1,284,389.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
IF GOD LOVED ALL MEANING EVERYONE, WHY IS NOT EVERYONE SAVED????

Because some people don't believe, or care, that God loved them and died for them; if they hear the Good News, they don't want to know.

Some, (and I've seen examples of this on the BBC religion message boards), think that God created suffering and evil, some think he is either cruel to deliberately let babies and children die from illness or is powerless to stop it. Some don't believe that Jesus' death was really a sacrifice because a) he was God and could not die, and b) because he already knew he would rise again. Many do not actually believe they have done anything so bad that God would send them to hell, and if he condemned them for not believing in him when there are many other religions older than Christianity, then he is full of himself. (I've been in debates with people who think like this.) And some don't feel the need for any kind of religion at all - they would say they make their own choices and are in control of their own destinies.

This doesn't mean that they can't change their minds, will never realise they need God or call out to him in a time of need. Many do, and the very fact that we CAN change our minds, shows that God has given us free will and the ability to change and choose. What's more we must believe this is possible, or we wouldn't pray for them.

But there will always be some who refuse to consider God, reach out to him or call upon him to save them. If that is their final choice - and no one knows what happens in the few moments before death or when a person is unconscious - then God will honour that choice. He allowed them to choose in the first place, and will honour the choice they have made.
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
70,909
7,900
Western New York
✟150,408.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We don't need to argue about a definition for love. It is an english word! If you want to redefine it, then give me a definition. Until then, let's use this:

love A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

There are seven different words meaning love used in the Bible, and they each have a different meaning. The word 'agape' is the word Christ used regarding the love God has for us, and I don't necessarily think it can be defined in the manner above.

Do you deny that Jesus restored our relationship with God? We are back to the status of Adam and Eve. We now have the ability to choose or reject God' grace.

Jesus reunited us with God. Now we can pick up our cross and follow or reject God's grace.

Jesus restored the ability to have a relationship with God, but we aren't back to the status of Adam and Eve precisely because we have to pick up our cross and follow Him. That means we are still bound by a fallen world. Adam and Eve were not (till they fell). As long as we live in a fallen world, we will not see things clearly, and our main characteristic, every one if us, is to take our will, our definition of things, and substitute it for God's, even if we don't think we are, because we are still fallen.

I do believe that we have the ability to choose to reject God's grace. I just don't think anyone who has been regenerated will.

I know I keep posting some of the same verses, buy you keep ignoring them.

Please tell me why you don't believe these verses:

Since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

I do believe those verses, but I don't believe what you believe about those verses because 'all' doesn't always mean all. When you take away the context, sure, it can look like it means everyone, but the context usually tells us who is being addressed in the passage, and most of the time, all means people from all nations or all believers. Very rarely does it mean every single person that ever lived on the face of the earth.

Strong's G3956 - pas πᾶς

Part of Speech-adjective

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) individually
....a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
....a) some of all types


Same with 'world'.

Strong's G2889 - kosmos κόσμος

Part of Speech-masculine noun

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
....a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
....a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
....b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
 
Upvote 0
No, but God gave mankind free will.
He has chosen to let us choose whether to love, follow and obey him. If we choose not to, then however much he wants it, or however much his heart might be breaking because he knows what the outcome of that choice will be; he will not make us change our minds.

God gave Adam and Eve free choice. They were sinless at the time. Then Sin came in and seperation came and the free choice was bathed in sin for now they were dead in their tresspasses just as God had warned them they would be. They could not then choose to be as they were before the sin. They were cast out and men have been cast out ever since. Men are now slaves to sin. Until God chooses and saves a man does He have the freedom of Choice in Him again. When God regenerates a man then they are now slaves of righteousness because the righteous one lives inside His own chosen people making them HIS temple. This is why were are called bond servants unto the Lord..

If God had really wanted to guarantee that everyone everywhere would worship and serve him, he wouldn't have given us this free will - we'd be robots or divine puppets. Pull a string, and we'd raise our hands in worship, push a button in our backs and we'd say "I love you Lord".
Automatic love and worship because we knew no different.
Satan would not have decided to try to rebel against God and been thrown out of heaven. Adam and Eve would not have eaten the forbidden fruit; actually, there might not have been a forbidden fruit. We would live in a perfect world, free from sin, sickness and death and would worship our creator - what bliss - but, we would do it because we had to, not because we had chosen to.

All men are puppets to their sin until Christ rengenerates you and sets you free.. This is what is meant when the scriptures tell us that if Christ sets you free you are free indeed. All men are created to worship, This is that empty space most people feel in their life.. Like something is missing. Only Christ can fill that empty spot. This is why men strive to be the best or have the most, Men try to fill that void.

Obviously God decided that he wanted people who were keen, eager, passionate about loving and serving him, and whose hearts' desire was to love and know him better; and this was worth the risk of heartache and pain of rejection. Amazing love! :bow: I couldn't do it, I'd be tempted to play safe. But then, I'm not love, I'm not a parent and I'm not God.
I would say part of what you say I agree with. God did want a people to love and serve Him so He chose some who will be such a people just as Adam and Eve were in the beginning before the fall.
 
Upvote 0
You would be a tyrant if you threw them in the fire for eternity because they acted like children.
and if they are killed in a car wreck because of their rebellion or kill themselves because they can't believe they are truly loved are you the tyrant because this happened and they died? You blame God for Adam and Eves freedom of Choice they had and they chose to rebel..Why? Some are so intent on free will choice but yet blame God for this also. So either way God is a tyrant? This is why one must come to know Him through Christ the Lord and be born again in order to understand spiritual things. When one is Born again the Love from God pours in and the Love for God pours out. This is what is called regneration..
 
Upvote 0
Then God sent Jesus who reunited us to him.

Why do you keep ignoring these passages?

  • For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
    1Cor. 15:21-22
  • Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
  • For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
    Rom 11:32
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 
Upvote 0
He gave his son so that ANYONE who believes in him and follows his will can be saved.


God wants us to follow his will, but he won't force us.

We could keep our children from getting hit by a car by locking them in a cage. Is that love?

God created us in his image with the ability to FREELY love him.

This is what he wants from us, but he can't force us to love.
One must understand that it is not force but a gift. All men seek for love. This is why when one is chosen they come to know Love. Until one is born again they really have not tasted the fullness of the Love of God. For Love is of God and the Love that is of God is so much more than the love of men. Men can love in human terms. :) But untill one has tasted the Lord and Knows His Love can one truly Love God. :)
 
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I would say part of what you say I agree with. God did want a people to love and serve Him so He chose some who will be such a people just as Adam and Eve were in the beginning before the fall.

and Adam and Eve sinned

had it been only about gods will this would have never happened and you really can't get around that
 
Upvote 0

ArcticFox

To glorify God, and enjoy him forever.
Sep 27, 2006
1,197
169
Japan
Visit site
✟24,652.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
because if love forced it would be a tyrant

and if we obeyed simply because we had too we would not be functioning out of love

the freedom element is essential to truly experience and understand love

We understand what you're trying to say, but this is just the off-the-cuff logic of man being created by man and then applied to man's understanding of the Bible.

We have to quit using self-created concepts to judge the truth of Scripture.

For example, if God wanted to make us into robots he could have and would have, and who are we to say anything about it? We have to stop judging the Scriptures from outside, human-based thinking. We must re-orient our entire worldview with Scripture. Judge Scripture with Scripture, not Scripture with "humankind's common sense," which is not so common to God, it seems.

For example, we often create a concept of what a "loving God" is, and then judge whether doctrine can be true based on this concept of a "loving God." I often hear people say, "I don't think a loving God would..." Well that's just fine, if you're creating your own personal religion, but I don't give a rat's tail what YOU think a loving God is or isn't... If it isn't backed up by Scripture, it's not biblical, and it's not the real God, just the one you make up for yourself based on your own personal concept of love.

In like manner, don't be so quick to think, "it seems like that is a tyrant behavior... God is not a tyrant, therefore, that's not God's behavior." You're using your own concepts of "tyranny" to judge God.

And, btw, by any definition of the word, God is a "tyrant." He rules supreme, no one can stay his hand, and he doesn't consult with others for a vote.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

archierieus

Craftsman
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
6,682
689
Petaluma, Califiornia
Visit site
✟77,639.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
... what do you think?


:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

Forgive my tardy response, but this is such an important question. My answer? Yes, yes, and yes! He DOES desire the salvation of ALL. And no, what God desires does not always come to pass, because He has given us freedom to choose. He did not desire Adam and Eve to choose evil, but He gave them the freedom to do so. And today, He does not desire anyone to perish, as Peter says, but He gives them the freedom to do so.

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sphinx777
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.