How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

[katholikos]

The theory about passing on power of sacramental consecration faces the serious obstacle that the New Testament does not show the Twelve laying hands on bishops either as successors or as auxiliaries in administering sacraments.
There can be no successors to the Twelve. They finished their foundational objectives & await their eschatological roles.

1. 1 Timothy 4:14
   Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
   1 Timothy 4:13-15 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
2. 1 Timothy 5:22
   Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
   1 Timothy 5:21-23 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5 (Whole Chapter)
3. 2 Timothy 1:6
   For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
   2 Timothy 1:5-7 (in Context) 2 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)

 

[ARBITER01]

Do you believe that Jesus wants his followers to be one as he and the father are one?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is leading the church into all truth?

Do you believe that if we reject those sent by Jesus we are rejecting him?

I don't disagree with that, but Jesus specifically said this also,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

So the ones I'm concerned about, who are actually the body of Christ, are those that are doing the works of Jesus and conforming to the image of HIS Son in sanctification, not those that are performing religious works in response to the church building they uphold.

As I already said, the rules are not going to be the same on both sides. Catholics are not going to hold the bible as their absolute, they will lean upon their man made traditions instead, and that just won't work for those of us who refuse such things.

 

[sunlover1]

What does that have to do with God LEADING us?
Because WE're idiots, that means God didnt TRY to
speak to our hard hearts?
I can tell you first hand, been there done that, and a day
doesnt go by probably that I dont thank Him for trying
and persisting even though I've been stiffnecked or foolish.

That's why we are not to lean on our own understanding.

Lean not unto thine own understanding, but in ALL thy ways..
acknowledge Him.. and he will what?
Direct our paths (Written to us)

"That they may be one as you and I are one"

Jesus and the Father don't disagree about anything

We've discussed this many times. Oneness in the mystical
sense as a husband and wife become one.

There's no way that humans can think exactly the same,
but with God all things are possible.

We have the mind of Christ.

The Bible says so, and so I believe it.

You're thinking church (organization) rather than church,
as in the priesthood of believers, body of Christ.

I posted this in another thread, and since we're studying
Kingdom at my church, I will be expanding on it alot
over the next few months most likely.

Pastor was talking about this a couple weeks ago.
He said that we have taken a kingdom, turned it
into an 'organization', and then made it an 'event'.

Depending on how long you're there on Sunday morning,
an hour, two hours, that's church, and that's all it means.
But that's not so in truth.
Church is the 'called out ones' the House of God...

 

[Rick Otto]

are you sure? if you could post some histry to back that up I would be very greatful

Read along, I'm providing what I can, but shouldn't Chez be the one to back up the assertion I'm denying?

 

[Hentenza]

there have been many reforms in the Catholic Church, the Franciscans have been a major force for reform ever since the begining of the order

That is true. Many monastic groups put up a good fight.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lean not unto thine own understanding, but in ALL thy ways..
acknowledge Him.. and he will what?
Direct our paths (Written to us)


We've discussed this many times. Oneness in the mystical
sense as a husband and wife become one.

There's no way that humans can think exactly the same,
but with God all things are possible.

We have the mind of Christ.

The Bible says so, and so I believe it.

You're thinking church (organization) rather than church,
as in the priesthood of believers, body of Christ.

I posted this in another thread, and since we're studying
Kingdom at my church, I will be expanding on it alot
over the next few months most likely.

Pastor was talking about this a couple weeks ago.
He said that we have taken a kingdom, turned it
into an 'organization', and then made it an 'event'.

Depending on how long you're there on Sunday morning,
an hour, two hours, that's church, and that's all it means.
But that's not so in truth.
Church is the 'called out ones' the House of God...

zeph 1:7 Be-hushed! from faces/before of my-Lord YHWH, that near Day of YHWH. That YHWH prepares a Sacrifice, He sanctifies ones-being-Called/07121 qara' of Him. 8 And He becomes in Day of sacrifice of YHWH.........

Reve 17:14 These with the lambkin shall be battling and the lambkin shall be conquering them. That Lord of Lords He is and King of Kings. And the-ones with Him called-ones/klhtoi <2822> and elect-ones/eklektoi <1588> and faithful-ones

 

[Hentenza]

Let me ask you all a question. Are our churches (RC and Protestant orthodox churches) complimentary?

 

[chestertonrules]

The theory about passing on power of sacramental consecration faces the serious obstacle that the New Testament does not show the Twelve laying hands on bishops either as successors or as auxiliaries in administering sacraments.
There can be no successors to the Twelve. They finished their foundational objectives & await their eschatological roles.

You mean in your fallible interpretation, right?

Let's see what we get from a more divine source!

Acts 6
They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

Acts 13
1In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Acts 14

23Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Acts 15

23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

 

[chestertonrules]

You mean in your fallible interpretation, right?

Let's see what we get from a more divine source!

Acts 6
They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

Acts 13
1In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Acts 14

23Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Acts 15

23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

And the process continued:


Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Let me ask you all a question. Are our churches (RC and Protestant orthodox churches) complimentary?

Some just need a little more "seasoning" and some may have too much

Mark 9:49 For all to-fire/puri <4442> shall be being salted/alisqhsetai <233> (5701), and every sacrifice to salt/ali <251> shall be being salted/alisqhsetai <233> (5701).

Reve 14:10 And he is drinking out of the wine of the fury of the God, of the having been blended undiluted in the drink-cup of the wrath of Him. And he shall be being tormented in fire/puri <4442> and sulfur/qeiw <2303> before the holy messengers, and before the lamb-kin.

 

[Hentenza]

You mean in your fallible interpretation, right?

Let's see what we get from a more divine source!

Acts 6
They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

Acts 13
1In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Acts 14

23Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Acts 15

23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

Acts 14 should be a dead giveaway. But I'll leave you to your church's interpretation outside of context.

 

[ARBITER01]

The Twelve claim their authority from Jesus & there is no mention of Him laying hands on any of them when He chose them.

That is correct. No one received anything until Jesus was seated at the right hand of GOD,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Jesus still administers the gifts and ministries from His throne as He did during the record of Acts, He has never stopped. There is no such thing as apostolic succession when everything originates from Jesus.

 

[chestertonrules]

Acts 14 for be a dead giveaway. But I'll leave you to your church's interpretation outside of context.

What is your interpretation?

Do you believe those not authorized can claim authority to teach and lead in the Church?

If so, why?

 

[Christ+a]

If you think there was more than one church when these words of scripture were written, please let us know what they were.

I believe that Jesus only founded one church.

oh i absolutely agree with you and believe the same: Jesus only founded one church! - and it wasn't Roman Catholic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, I guess all my posts must be invisible......LLOJ sits out awhile......

 

[chestertonrules]

oh i absolutely agree with you and believe the same: Jesus only founded one church! - but it wasn't Roman Catholic.

If not the Catholic Church, which Church do you think it was?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If not the Catholic Church, which Church do you think it was?

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

 

[sunlover1]

What is your interpretation?

Do you believe those not authorized can claim authority to teach and lead in the Church?

If so, why?

Yes. because we're all able ministers of the gospel of Christ.
But mostly because all authority and gifting comes directly
from God, sometimes through other men, sometimes not.

If not the Catholic Church, which Church do you think it was?

The catholic Church.

If i were Roman Catholic, I'd nominate you for the next open
position btw. The pope should be very proud of you.

 

[Rick Otto]

1. 1 Timothy 4:14
   Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

The previous verse reveals what this was for:
13: Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14: Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
...........................................................................................


1 Timothy 4:13-15 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)

Not a thing in there about consecrating & administering sacraments.
....................................................................................................

1. 1 Timothy 5:22
   Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Too late, didn't work. We already know about the sins of some popes & priests.
.................................................................................................


1 Timothy 5:21-23 (in Context) 1 Timothy 5 (Whole Chapter)


Again, nothing at all in the entire chapter about duties exclusive to a priesthood.
...............................................................................

1. 2 Timothy 1:6
   For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
   2 Timothy 1:5-7 (in Context) 2 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)

Gotta run....

 

[ARBITER01]

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

It would be this group of people,...

Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.