Why do you reject the pope?

[Picklenickels]

Let's get our quadriga off of St. Mark's in Venice while we are at it

 

[Picklenickels]

Defending the faith is NOT arrogance. I think you would do better than insult one of the members of your own faith, for stating the obvious truth.

 

[Julina]

One cannot say that they love Jesus Christ, yet reject his Church. The Orthodox Faith is the faith handed down from the Apostles, and the Patriarch of Rome fell into heresy, and separated himself from that faith. One cannot love Jesus Christ, and reject his Church.

unfortunately many of them do not think or realize that they actually are rejecting the church

 

[exquirer]

If you are of the Church and a Christian, can you answer me two simple questions - where are the gates of hell located and how are they assaulted?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Gary Indiana... with a wrecker.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

One cannot say that they love Jesus Christ, yet reject his Church. The Orthodox Faith is the faith handed down from the Apostles, and the Patriarch of Rome fell into heresy, and separated himself from that faith. One cannot love Jesus Christ, and reject his Church.

That's too blanket a statement. You have no idea the issues Ex and others are dealing with. Ony Christ will be the one to judge if he loves Christ. Worry about your own self Max.

Xpy

 

[Picklenickels]

That's too blanket a statement. You have no idea the issues Ex and others are dealing with. Ony Christ will be the one to judge if he loves Christ. Worry about your own self Max.

Xpy

I disagree. It comes down to what is right and what is wrong. It is possible to debate for days about the differences we have with Rome, but as the movie says: "There can be only ONE".....

Either the Orthodox Church is right or it is not. It isn't that complicated.

 

[Michael G]

If you are of the Church and a Christian, can you answer me two simple questions - where are the gates of hell located and how are they assaulted?

Are you questioning the Christianity of the Orthodox Church?

 

[Julina]

I disagree. It comes down to what is right and what is wrong. It is possible to debate for days about the differences we have with Rome, but as the movie says: "There can be only ONE".....

Either the Orthodox Church is right or it is not. It isn't that complicated.

does that mean that no one else has the hope of salvation?

 

[Julina]

If you are of the Church and a Christian, can you answer me two simple questions - where are the gates of hell located and how are they assaulted?

i don't know i've never been there

 

[E.C.]

I disagree. It comes down to what is right and what is wrong. It is possible to debate for days about the differences we have with Rome, but as the movie says: "There can be only ONE".....

Either the Orthodox Church is right or it is not. It isn't that complicated.

I think most of the Orthodox here would agree that the Orthodox Church is right and not wrong.

That being said, we do have to respect the path that that many have taken that is not Orthodox. Like St. Theophan the Recluse said, "Worry not about the heterodox; they have a savior who cares for them and loves them. Worry about your own salvation".

We can sit and discuss with the Romans our differences and similarities and dirty laundry all we want, but it will have no value to it if it is not done so with respect. That also being said we do need to defend the Church and stand up for the Church when defending and standing up are needed. How then can we be an example of the Grace of the Holy Spirit which has been preserved in the Church since Pentecost if we insult people at either a personal level or insult their Church's and beliefs?
If a man is stuck on an isolated island and is never able to know God, is it really his fault for not being able to know Him? By the same principal, if a man is stuck in the middle of Vatican City and never knows the Orthodox Church in any way, shape or form; are we to judge them for not being able to know the Church when they are not able to know Her?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks EC

And also, we hould never question the love anyone has for Christ who says they do. We just cant know what's in their hearts. Yes, Ex left the Church, but you don't know what has brought him to that point. He doesn't believe he has left. Is he being lead by delusion? It would seem quite evident that such is the case, but to say that he doesn't love Jesus? I have a feeling that could be SEVERLY judged for suggesting that about anyone. It's not like he said "I believe the Orthodox Church is the One and only True Church and despite that, I am leaving for a church that is not."

Anyway, I really think it would be wise for you to seriously consider worrying soley about your salvation. Pray for ex and others who have been lead by delusion, but to question their love for Christ is questioning their salvation and I just don't think we have a right to do that unless that person is our own self or someone we have been charged to oversee spiritually.

Xpy

 

[Michael G]

I disagree. It comes down to what is right and what is wrong. It is possible to debate for days about the differences we have with Rome, but as the movie says: "There can be only ONE".....

Either the Orthodox Church is right or it is not. It isn't that complicated.

It is actually a little more complicated than that. I knew personally a man who was a Roman Catholic priest who spent much of his life preaching and living the Gospel in Kenya and as a reward for his 30+ years or service the Kenyan government murdered him. He will one day be listed among the RC saints and I personally know him to be a saint. I have the blessing of my priest to write an icon of him and to give him the title martyr and a halo.

Another example is a very young man who was my classmate in seminary. He was my good friend for a year and a very humble, holy man filled with the love of others and love of life. He became a monk shortly after I left seminary and one night stood up before the monastic community and gave a most stirring witness to the monastic life. He then instantly died. No heart attack, nothing medically wrong with him. It was as if God said to him "Well done my friend, you have done the work I created you to do and it is now time for you to come home." Again, I have the blessing of my priest to write an icon of him and give him the title saint and a halo.

Both of these icons are for my own personal veneration. But both of them prove the point that God is alot bigger than just the Orthodox Church. We know where the work of the Holy Spirit is, in the Orthodox Church, but what we don't know is where he does not work. The Orthodox Church has never said there is no action of the Holy Spirit outside of the Church. You can NOT say definitively that only Orthodox people receive the Holy Spirit. Only God can say who the Holy Spirit moves in life and who he does not. Thus I would be real careful who you pass judgement on because in the end judgement is only for God to pass.

 

[Michael G]

Anyway, I really think it would be wise for you to seriously consider worrying soley about your salvation. Pray for ex and others who have been lead by delusion, but to question their love for Christ is questioning their salvation and I just don't think we have a right to do that unless that person is our own self or someone we have been charged to oversee spiritually.

Xpy

It is a known fact that Xpy and I disagree on alot of things, maybe even more things than we agree on. But I agree wholeheartedly with him on this statement!

 

[Picklenickels]

E.C.
I can assure you, my Orthodox Brother, that my intention was not to insult anyone, but to defend our faith with zeal. I love my Church and Faith. Many of the Latins that I run across, come across as arrogant. I simply let them know the other side of the coin. That is why it is a debate.

 

[Picklenickels]

The only "judgement" here, that I have used, is whether or not the Holy Orthodox Church is the one true Church or not. I say without hesitation that it is, and without exception. If that offends any of my Orthodox Brothers & Sisters, then I apologize. I will continue to defend my faith with all of the zeal that I have been given.

 

[Picklenickels]

Personally, I strive to avoid them (the gates of Hell)

 

[Xpycoctomos]

The only "judgement" here, that I have used, is whether or not the Holy Orthodox Church is the one true Church or not. I say without hesitation that it is, and without exception.

as do I, and from what I can see so does every other TAW member.

If that offends any of my Orthodox Brothers & Sisters, then I apologize.

No need to apologize for that. If it were THAT that offended anyone, that would be there problem.

I will continue to defend my faith with all of the zeal that I have been given.

The problem is not that you hold that the Orthodox Church is THE church. It's that you presume to know the heart of anyone who rejects it. You just can't know that. You don't know the demons Ex has had to struggle with or any dissenter for that matter. You make a conclusion that is not yours to make. Don't tell God who doesn't love him. Simply pray to God that He have mercy on those who have left His Church and follow up with a prayer, all the stronger, that he have mercy on your soul becuase YOU know the truth and you see it every Sunday. You have no excuse for you sin. Ex doesn't love Jesus? Who are you?

Xpy

 

[Philothei]

I think we get all worked up here for nothing... indeed. Max in my estimation is saying nothing than we have to defend the faith in cases where it get "distorted" or mirepresent it.. I truly think that what Ex presented here was neither a clear Catholic view and of course a "biased" EO view.... That was obvious but rather than pressing on the "wrongs" we have to focus on the positive side of things and that we will always pray for people's salvation despite their errors and wrongdoings. God only knows our own wrongdoings...We leave any kind of judgment for our Lord... as per his commandment "Judgment is mind says the Lord"

As far as our differences about us and RC that is another issue all together IMHO. Also IMHO I do not agree that EX understands well where the RC position esp. the official that of the RC church stands vis-a-vis the EO.....

But then again we should refrain from any judgment
If I am out of line forgive me

 

[E.C.]

E.C.
I can assure you, my Orthodox Brother, that my intention was not to insult anyone, but to defend our faith with zeal. I love my Church and Faith. Many of the Latins that I run across, come across as arrogant. I simply let them know the other side of the coin. That is why it is a debate.

Not a problem, just need to work on the diplomacy skills a little bit.

Really, if someone thinks the Church is infested with demons, let them think it. That is their opinion. However, if they start saying that all of us who are a part of the Church are infested with demons, than that changes everything.

as do I, and from what I can see so does every other TAW member. No need to apologize for that. If it were THAT that offended anyone, that would be there problem.
The problem is not that you hold that the Orthodox Church is THE church. It's that you presume to know the heart of anyone who rejects it. You just can't know that. You don't know the demons Ex has had to struggle with or any dissenter for that matter. You make a conclusion that is not yours to make. Don't tell God who doesn't love him. Simply pray to God that He have mercy on those who have left His Church and follow up with a prayer, all the stronger, that he have mercy on your soul becuase YOU know the truth and you see it every Sunday. You have no excuse for you sin. Ex doesn't love Jesus? Who are you?

Xpy

Quoted For Truth.