Vatican-New Guidelines for testing apparitions - OBEDIENCE FIRST TEST - Medjugorje?

[thereselittleflower]

Your welcome. As I see it, the only prudent place to be on the matter is neutral and completely in line with the Church and I take that place its lead me to as a fruit of the apparition for me personally.

Well, we obviously disagree 100% on this point. I would agree if there had been no clear evidence to discern yet. But there is clear evidence, and when there is clear evidence that this is not of God, then prudence is no longer to be neutral, but discerning of its false nature and exposing it so others are not duped by seeming "fruits" that people have been wrongly convinced prove something supernatural about the alledged apparition.

• When seers deliberately disobey their Bishop in favor of the apparition
• When priests deliberately disobey their Bishop in favor of the appariton
• When seers repeatedly lie to their Bishops
• When seers and principals get rich off of those who flock to them because of their claims of alledged apparitions
• When the faithful go to Medjugorje because they believe something supernatural is happening or what to authenticate it for themselves even though the Church has repeatedly forbidden such acts

then it is glaringly obvious that any "fruits" are not the result of the alledged apparition or anything supposedly supernatural about it, but rather the heart's turn towards and receipt of Grace through the Church and Her Sacramentes.

So, no - it is no longer prudent to take a neutral stance, for by taking a neutral stance we may cause someone else to think things are permissable which are not permissable and thus be an indirect cause for them to stumble and fall in the faith.

Anything less appears to be presumption.

Only if one does not educate themselves to the facts, but once educated according to the Church's view of how to discern such issues, for remember, the vast majority never are even looked at by the Church so we are to discern for ourselves, it is no longer presumption, but a well informed conclusion.

If we take a neutral view to the plethora of claims of alledged apparitions, then we will be taking a neutral view to the majority which the Church tells us are false, either coming from within the seer or from demonic forces to deceive.

We must never take a neutral stance to the enemy.

Its easy to see why both the promoters and detractors hold their opinions. I think both presume.

I agree with you in regards to the promoters

And I agree if the detractors have not educated themselves. But once educated according to the facts the Bishops have laid out, then no - there is no presumption.

Personally, I think such rampant presumption just perpetuates the indecision of the Church but thats just me applying prudence to the whole situation in the big picture and example of circumstance in all past approved apparitions.

It has no impact on the indecision of the Church - the Church is not undecided.

The Church has 3 times given negative judgment that they have not found any evidence that anything supernatural has been going on over the decades they invetigated it. With daily messages for decades that is astounding in and of itself.

All that remains now is for the final condemnation which may not have been necessary if the seers and faithful had obeyed the Church and stopped all publication of the messages and stopped going to Medjugorje in pilgrimage because either they believed it or wanted to find out for themselves - all this has been repeatedly forbidden and at all levels this order has been affirmed.

But because the Church has been continually disobeyed, the following has grown, and this will make even more obvious the false nature of the beast when the Church does rule in accordance with how the Church has always ruled in such situations - CONDEMNATION. There is not one instance of the Church approving such an apparition, where there is such rank disobedience. And when, after the condemnation is made, the response of the seers, the principals and Medjurje's followers will demonstrate the REAL fruit of these events - there will not be humble submission . . . but real problems of faith and obedience to the Church, and the schism that is already in place may split wide open in some areas, especially in the local of the alledged apparitions.

I find it fascinating nevertheless and a trend toward the future in several ways.

It is, as it has always been for the Church. What has happened in the last 100 years is a turn towards the supernatural for authentication of faith, and that robs faith of its merrit and so does harm to believers.

This trend needs to be reversed, for it opens wide the door to deception as we see in Medjugorje.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am just curious as to whether any of you have ever experienced any miracles, great or small, in your life, or whether you have ever seen a heavenly sign...or a heavenly being...or if a loved one who died came and visited you...or whether anything out of the ordinary ever happened to you.

And don't you ever talk about it to the people you care about? I am not talking about full-scale "apparitions" with warnings to mankind--I am talking about things like when Mary appeared to a 30 year old friend with a poor cancer prognosis and told her she would survive....

So if you've had experiences like that, I just want you to know that it really helps me to hear them....so if you're dying to tell someone and are afraid of not following the rules, you can tell me. I will be an appreciative audience and I won't tattle.

Fantine, running after the supernatural, whether one's own experiences or that of others, to help one in their faith robs faith of its darkness - what the Church refers to as "dark faith" - faith that is faith in the absence of such "proofs" of its validity - for that is faith that brings us merits.

Running after the supernatural not only robs faith of its merits, but also throws wide open the door to satan to deceive, and there is no end to the delightful deceptions he will send our way, all to keep us from growing in this dark faith, all to keep us as far away from it as possible.

Seeking out the alledged supernatural experiences of others is a dangerous thing fantine . . . .

 

[Amylisa]

I think she was looking for things that might be encouraging to others to hear about.

If God brings it to you, fine....but yes, we shouldn't seek out experiences to happen to us.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I wont talk about my personal experiences (I leave that for my spiritual director and sometimes BF ), but in the Hospital, you see many things as David mentioned.

Working in the ER, OB ICU trauma, and now in the Neonatal ICU, one can not deny, miracles, visits from angels, saints, and other. Our God is so good in giving us what we need at the moment we need it, and in the most peculiar ways sometimes.

I know there is always discernment, but like Joab said, "I have experienced the bizarre happening after heart felt prayer with resolution to Gods will no matter what the decision", when the HS leads you to Gods will, there is no confusion of the prompting, or voice, and there is peace and a definite knowing within yourself that you can't deny, and you are almost compelled to follow.

And God never leads us to something that contradicts Him.

So it can never be God leading us to something that contradicts His Church and Bishops.

And do it can never be God leading us to seeming supernatural events that promote disobedience to the local Bishops and the Church - this indicates they are not from God and not supernatural at all.

We must remember that the heart is exceeding deceitful and wicked, and so going with what we feel in the heart can be a dangerous thing, and when we go with something we feel in the heart to embrace something that causes such disobedience to the Church, something is very, very wrong and we have stepped out of the place of safety into very dangerous ground.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think she was looking for things that might be encouraging to others to hear about.

If God brings it to you, fine....but yes, we shouldn't seek out experiences to happen to us.

We should not seek out those of others either - for that is also running after the supernatural. When they are brought to our attention without our seeking after them, that is one thing.

But when we desire to hear them, making our faith somehow dependent on them, ie they are sought because they are perceived to be a help to faith, that is the very dangerous ground that I am speaking of, and one does open themselves to deception by the enemy.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I know there is always discernment, but like Joab said, "I have experienced the bizarre happening after heart felt prayer with resolution to Gods will no matter what the decision", when the HS leads you to Gods will, there is no confusion of the prompting, or voice, and there is peace and a definite knowing within yourself that you can't deny, and you are almost compelled to follow.

And God never leads us to something that contradicts Him.

So it can never be God leading us to something that contradicts His Church and Bishops.

And do it can never be God leading us to seeming supernatural events that promote disobedience to the local Bishops and the Church - this indicates they are not from God and not supernatural at all.

We must remember that the heart is exceeding deceitful and wicked, and so going with what we feel in the heart can be a dangerous thing, and when we go with something we feel in the heart to embrace something that causes such disobedience to the Church, something is very, very wrong and we have stepped out of the place of safety into very dangerous ground.

I agree with both of your posts..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We should not seek out those of others either - for that is also running after the supernatural. When they are brought to our attention without our seeking after them, that is one thing.

But when we desire to hear them, making our faith somehow dependent on them, ie they are sought because they are perceived to be a help to faith, that is the very dangerous ground that I am speaking of, and one does open themselves to deception by the enemy.

I agree our faith should not depend on experiences or feelings or miracles, because then we can always be lead astray.. faith is a choice...

I'm just wondering now, if we have received something without looking for it and without seeking it... how much importance should we give it? Assuming that it's not against the Church in any way and you're being obedient. Is it right to just thank God for the encouragement and then move on, and is it oki to tell someone about the experience if it would help them and bring glory to God? (if the experience is not rejected by the Church)

 

[thereselittleflower]

I agree our faith should not depend on experiences or feelings or miracles, because then we can always be lead astray.. faith is a choice...

I'm just wondering now, if we have received something without looking for it and without seeking it... how much importance should we give it? Assuming that it's not against the Church in any way and you're being obedient. Is it right to just thank God for the encouragement and then move on, and is it oki to tell someone about the experience if it would help them and bring glory to God? (if the experience is not rejected by the Church)

Remember, it is never necessary for salvation, so not too much importance can be given it overall - the Saints were always distrustful of any seeming supernatural events.

St John of the Cross said in any "supernatural" occurance, to give it back 3 times - if it permitted back after the third time, then it would be safe to trust it for now. After having used this rule myself, I have found it to be a very good rule.

Remember, the vast majority of experiences will never be judged by the Church, let alone investigated. So it is incumbent upon us to learn how to judge them, and remember that what people normally call "fruit" is not what the Church looks at first - it is about last on the list, and the reason for this is satan can conterfeit all the "fruits" except one - obedience. Also, when genuine "fruit" are present, it is no proof of the validity of the supernatural event, but simply points the genuiness of faith, and the flow of grace through the Church and Her sacraments.


It is most important, I have learned, that we seek a "dark faith" - a faith that lives and grows and strenthens in the "darkness" of no supernatural events or spiritual consolations. For a 'dark faith" merits the most of any other kind of faith. For our faith to merit the most, it must be a "dark" faith for that is true faith, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


A faith that seeks confirmation through supernatural consolations and/or experiences, whether their own or those of othesr, seeks these as evidence for their faith, not understanding that their FAITH is what is evidence, and its strength is dependent on just how "dark" it is.


Whenever we turn to such events and experiences, whether our own or others, to that extent our faith is less "dark" and merits less and less. And to that extent we open ourselves to deception from the enemy.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines say. I don't much go into in depth discussion of such things until I see a document. The press does not often get Vatican stories perfectly right.

My main curiosity is does the document address local versus national versus world wide implications. Because as head of the CDF Ratzinger made that distinction for jurisdiction.

Who says it is Our Lady? The Church doesn't. The Church has said THREE times that it is impossible to find anything supernatural about what is claimed at all.

So why do many Catholics have strong opinons against Medjugorje?

Because they can see that the events surrounding Medjugorje mean it is not authentic. And it is the EVENTS that the Church looks at first. If the EVENTS fail the test, then it is a false revelation.

They can see that the rank disobedience of the seers and Franciscan priests and monks involved. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the apparition has encouraged such disobedience in its messages. Mary NEVER encourages disobedience to the Bishops. This is PROOF that this isnot Mary at all.

They can see that the apparition has attacked the Bishop in its messages. Mary NEVER attacks the Bishop. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see the disobedience of millions of believers each year who go to Medjguroje on pilgrimage because they believe that Mary is appearing there, even though such pilgrimages have been repeatedly forbidden even being recognized at the level of the Vatican. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the messages of this apparition and the disobedience of the seers, principals and believers is causing schism in the region. Mary NEVER causes schism. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the Seers have repeatedly lied, even under oath in the invetigationd conducted by the Church. Authentic seers do not engage in such lies. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that these claims of apparitions and messages every day for years upon years, leading to decades of daily messages is totally contrary to what the Church tells us is the characterizes legitimate apparitions - - Legitimate ones are RARE and very self limiting. The sheer enormity of number of messages, is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the content of the messages is banal, ordinary, nothing remarkable or of great import. They are simply what the Church teaches us for the most part. Mary appears to hearld something of great import, some special message for the people of the time. Banality instead of great import of the messages is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the content of some of the messages is theologically defunct, and heretical. Mary is not theologically unsound in her messages. Her messages do not contain theological error. The theological error in these messages is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the apparition has lied. The apparition said, decades ago, that it would appear for only three more days. Those three days came and went and we still have daily messages for decades afterwards. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

They can see that the seers are monetarily profitting GREATLY from their claims and seek to do so - they live in rich mansions, drive expensive cars. Mary's servants of authentic apparitions reject monetary gain. This is PROOF that this is not Mary at all.

​

We could go on . . . .

You should be careful about repeating unsubstantiated accounts and or claims.

And exaggerating them. The Church has said pilgrimmages may continue - but until the apparitions are decided - they are not to be considered the reason for the pilgrimages.

TLF - i really think you need to find a new topic. This one is filling you with contempt for what could be a genuine apparition.
AND until the Church says otherwise - you MIGHT be wrong and attacking Our Lady.

 

[WarriorAngel]

St John the Cross says not to desire the supernatural because it changes your life - it makes you more responsibile for your actions because you were given more.

How does he think this?? Because it happened to him.

HE doesnt condemn the supernatural coming to anyone - because then he condemns what happened to him.


PLEASE stop repeating that Saint out of context. PLEASE!

 

[thereselittleflower]

You should be careful about repeating unsubstantiated accounts and or claims.

Haven't done any such thing WA - the claims are substantiated within the reports of the Bishops themselves. Have you ever bothered to read the reports of the commissions? I have a feeling that most Medjugorje supporers/believers have NEVER actually read these reports and other publications by the Bishops involved. Perhaps not or such a thing I do not think would have been said. It would be a very good thing to do, instead of jumping to such conclusions.

. .. . . . . . that is unless the Bishops are being accused of unsubstiated accounts and or claims? Is that what is going on here? I ask because I do know some Medjugorje supports do accuse the Bishops which only shows the bad fruit that is the real fruit of Medjugorje.

Surely no one here would be suggesting anyone do this, right?

And exaggerating them. The Church has said pilgrimmages may continue - but until the apparitions are decided - they are not to be considered the reason for the pilgrimages.

Have I said anythning differently? I don't think so.
In fact I know I haven't.

But you and I both know that millions go to Medjugorje every year, and the ONLY reason they go is BECAUSE of the alledged "apparitions" are believed to be real, or they want to find out for themselves.

THOSE MILLIONS of pilgrimages that do so each year are in complete disobedience to the Church, and this disobedience of the faithful is fostered by those involved in Medjugorje.

If we are being asked to believe that MILLIONS of pilgrims EVERY YEAR go to Medjugorje for any reason that excludes the alledged "apparitoins", then we are being asked to be very gulible indeed!

TLF - i really think you need to find a new topic. This one is filling you with contempt for what could be a genuine apparition.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would avoid getting personal in my thread, or any other thread, thank you.

There is no possiblity that this could be a genuine apparition for the reasons already stated - - these were the same reasons Naju was condemned. The Church is not schizophrenic, condemning one for reasons we find rampant in another, then ignoring those same reasons in the other one to approve it.

There have been many, many evidences given by the Bishops of the real fruit of Medjugorje which is rank disobedience, lies, etc all of which I have already said and all of which is documented by the Bishops.

It seems that Medjugorje supporters ignore that the current Bishop was appointed by Pope John Paul II, and at the time of the appointment was known to have a negative view of Medjugorje. It seems that if the Pope was really favorabe towards Medjugorje, he would have appointed someone who was also favorably disposed. Instead, he did the opposite, and that same Bishop is ready to pronounce absolute condemnation.

One must never take such opinons of the first and foremost authority in such matters, the Local Bishop, lightly.

I encourage people to read everything written by the Bishops on this matter.

AND until the Church says otherwise - you MIGHT be wrong and attacking Our Lady.

No WA - for never is anyone ever required to believe or accept any PRIVATE revelation.

One NEVER errs in not believing a private revelation or rejecting it, for it is not part of divine revelation and not required for belief.


But one CAN DEFINITELY err in accepting something as being from God that is actually from the devil.

One can be led far astray from the truth by the deceptions of satan when he gets people to believe something that is his is actually from God.

That can't happen the other way around concerning private revelation.

It is much better to err on the side of caution if one is not sure, than to be rash and brash and claim something is Mary that the Church has refused to say is Mary, and especially for which there is so much evidence from the Bishops that it is not Mary.

This is just common sense.

 

[thereselittleflower]

St John the Cross says not to desire the supernatural because it changes your life - it makes you more responsibile for your actions because you were given more.

Ummm this only tends to obfuscate the issue. He said not to desire supernatural experiences ever, period, because such desire opens one up to deception. He wrote at length about this very issue, so it is very important we don't side step it or ignore it. There is a reason why he and other Saints wrote on this matter . . . it is very unwise to ignore or disregard such words which represent the wisdom of the Church.

How does he think this?? Because it happened to him.

Let's be sure to consider all John of the Cross wrote on the subject which has been presented several times in this forum in the past. We can bring those threads back to life . . . . .

The very strongest concern that St John of the Cross had, was to do with exactly what we have been talking about - deception.

HE doesnt condemn the supernatural coming to anyone - because then he condemns what happened to him.

Of course not - No one suggested he did.

What he DOES condemn is the seeking after the supernatural, desiring the supernatural - that seeking, that desiring, is what opens one up for deception.

PLEASE stop repeating that Saint out of context. PLEASE!

I am not the one doing so WA .. .. . . .

 

[Fantine]

If you look at the Bible, from Genesis to Acts, miracles and testimony brought people to faith.

So what happened since then, TLF?

I am not saying that 'apparitions' that become 'media events' and 'happenings' should not be investigated by the Vatican.....

but the Holy Spirit is alive in this world, and I don't believe His presence should be ignored.

Even Mother Angelica has had a miraculous healing...

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (CWN) -- Mother Angelica, the founder and head of the worldwide EWTN broadcasting empire, has shed her crutches and braces after 40 years, as the result of an apparently miraculous healing.

Mother Angelica, who until last week could walk only with the help of crutches and braces on both of her legs, shed those devices last week after a Wednesday-night prayer session in which she "felt the heat in my ankle" and gradually experienced a restoration of control over her legs. One day later, after another session of prayer, she also discarded a brace which she had worn to support a damaged spine. The EWTN foundress, who was severely injured in an accident while she was a religious novice, told EWTN viewers that she had been praying the Rosary with a guest-- who she did not identify-- when the guest urged her to try walking without her crutches. Although at first her legs were "all over the place-- like I knew they would be," after a few moments she found that she could support her weight.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=6838

What should she do? Continue to wear her braces out in public until the miracle could be verified, lest she inspire people with her accounting of God's grace?

I know St. John of the Cross experienced a "dark night of the soul," but imposing a "dark night of the soul" on yourself for fear that anything remotely inspirational might be coming from the devil is masochism, pure and simple.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If you look at the Bible, from Genesis to Acts, miracles and testimony brought people to faith.

So what happened since then, TLF?

I am not saying that 'apparitions' that become 'media events' and 'happenings' should not be investigated by the Vatican.....

but the Holy Spirit is alive in this world, and I don't believe His presence should be ignored.

Even Mother Angelica has had a miraculous healing...



http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=6838

What should she do? Continue to wear her braces out in public until the miracle could be verified, lest she inspire people with her accounting of God's grace?

I know St. John of the Cross experienced a "dark night of the soul," but imposing a "dark night of the soul" on yourself for fear that anything remotely inspirational might be coming from the devil is masochism, pure and simple.

I think you are misunderstanding fantine, and I don't have time right now to go into everything you said.

I am talking about SEEKING AFTER the supernatural, DESIRING it, whether in personal experience or that of others.

That is something very different than what you are asking about above.

And no, this is not about the "dark night of the soul" - this is about a dark faith - something we are all to strive for, one that has no DEPENDENCE on consolations or the supernatural for its validity, one that does not DESIRE the supernatural to confirmit.

The experiences are God's to give or not give - we do not control that,.

But we DO control whether or not we DESIRE these experiences, whether or not we DEPEND on them to validate our faith

 

[JoabAnias]

St John the Cross says not to desire the supernatural because it changes your life - it makes you more responsibile for your actions because you were given more.

How does he think this?? Because it happened to him.

HE doesnt condemn the supernatural coming to anyone - because then he condemns what happened to him.


PLEASE stop repeating that Saint out of context. PLEASE!

In the context you reveal, wouldn't he then have to condemn the Mass and Prayer too?

I don't think JotC was a Stoic, do you?

 

[D'Ann]

If you look at the Bible, from Genesis to Acts, miracles and testimony brought people to faith.

So what happened since then, TLF?

I am not saying that 'apparitions' that become 'media events' and 'happenings' should not be investigated by the Vatican.....

but the Holy Spirit is alive in this world, and I don't believe His presence should be ignored.

Even Mother Angelica has had a miraculous healing...



http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=6838

What should she do? Continue to wear her braces out in public until the miracle could be verified, lest she inspire people with her accounting of God's grace?

I know St. John of the Cross experienced a "dark night of the soul," but imposing a "dark night of the soul" on yourself for fear that anything remotely inspirational might be coming from the devil is masochism, pure and simple.

First of all, this post isn't just to you Fantine, but to others. TLF is not saying that there is anything wrong about the miracles that others have personally experienced.

What she is stating and proving is that Medjugorje has not been approved or condemned by the Catholic Church. What she is stating is that we shouldn't be promoting these apparitions and claiming that they are Mary. Which we know some here have done that, whether they deny it or not, they have promoted these apparitions and they have protected these messages for a time and tried to prevent fellow Catholics here in the OBOB from debating if a message was truly correct or not correct.

So, am I blessed to read about the miracles, yes, very much so. Am I encouraged and even positively inspired, yes, very much so. But do I put faith in those miracles? Do they confirm to me that God is able to do miracles...the truth is, I already know that God does miracles and no, we should not put faith in miracles... even if they are approved of the Magisterial, we put our faith and trust in Christ Jesus our Lord who is the one who provides the miracle(s). What TLF is saying is we need to point our eyes towards Jesus and what the Catholic Church does approve and proclaim and even then, we should not put our hope, trust and faith in miracles or apparitions... We need to put our hope, faith and trust in Christ who uses anything to reveal Himself to us via miracles or any other method that we are open to and can learn and grow closer to Him by.

So... just a heads up, be respectful and please be careful not to promote or encourage people to put their faith and trust in miracles or apparitions.

And for the record, David, your testimony of your miracles and your supernatural experiences were heart touching and thank you. I have experienced similar miracles and supernatural events too, but it is always to point us to Jesus as your miracles and supernatural experiences have done so for you.

 

[Fantine]

I think you are misunderstanding fantine, and I don't have time right now to go into everything you said.

I am talking about SEEKING AFTER the supernatural, DESIRING it, whether in personal experience or that of others.

That is something very different than what you are asking about above.

And no, this is not about the "dark night of the soul" - this is about a dark faith - something we are all to strive for, one that has no DEPENDENCE on consolations or the supernatural for its validity, one that does not DESIRE the supernatural to confirmit.

The experiences are God's to give or not give - we do not control that,.

But we DO control whether or not we DESIRE these experiences, whether or not we DEPEND on them to validate our faith

I have never heard that we are all to strive for a dark faith.

Rather, I have heard that we are to share our faith and come together in community to support one another's faith.

 

[D'Ann]

Mod Hat

Howdy, sorry to interrupt the discussion, but it's just a little reminder...

This thread is not about miracles or testimonies of wonderful miracles as wonderful and sweet as those miracles are. Let's stay on topic. Let's talk about Medjugorje and how the Church views Medjugorje and the private revelations of Mejugorje and the seers.

I would love it if someone would start a thread on the wonderful blessings and miracles that we all can share in though. It would be wonderful to have a positive and tenderloving thread like that.

God's peace

Mod Hat off

 

[thereselittleflower]

I have never heard that we are all to strive for a dark faith.Again

Rather, I have heard that we are to share our faith and come together in community to support one another's faith.

How many dig that far into the Catholic faith to even hear the term? Not many. Does the fact that not many dig that far have any bearing on what I have shared? None whatseover.

Catholicism is not about what most Catholics today are aware of, but Catholicism is what is the truth regardless of how many are aware of some particular part of the Catholic faith.

Again, all I am talking about is the desiring of the supernatural, either in one's life or the lives of otehrs, and seeking out those supernatural experiences.

Again, we must strive to remember, since one's faith is not dependent on such supernatural experiences, it is not necessary to share supernatural experiences to share one's faith.

 

[Fantine]

Do you think it is possible to evangelize a "dark faith?"

And are you not called to evangelize?

Yes, ineffective evangelization still counts, I suppose....