Vatican-New Guidelines for testing apparitions - OBEDIENCE FIRST TEST - Medjugorje?

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JoabAnias

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I look forward to hearing more about this as it trickles into the English language.
I think it will be a blessing to have things laid out for parishioners so they can know and understand what is acceptable and what is not.

I've already seen it in English, here is one source: Pope Benedict XVI to Issue a "Vademecum" on Apparitions.

I read it a few days ago but recall I found that article not exactly as objectively neutral as the sources from EWTN posted above.

It makes the same mistake as those who presuppose Medjugorje is authentic by presupposing its not. imho.

Stands to reason though that those opposed would jump on this sooner, just as if there were something positive toward approval, you could bet your bottom dollar those who have already decided its true would be posting in droves. I really don't know how it will effect the case overall, will wait and see. I kind of doubt it will change anything definitively but is a great start toward getting that definitive decision. It shows its being worked under Benedict XVI

When it hits Le Observatory Romano and Zenit we will know its time the Church wants it to be made known. Right now it looks like a leak and propaganda to support a presupposed position.
 
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thereselittleflower

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I've already seen it in English, here is one source: Pope Benedict XVI to Issue a "Vademecum" on Apparitions.

I read it a few days ago but recall I found that article not exactly as objectively neutral as the sources from EWTN posted above.

It makes the same mistake as those who presuppose Medjugorje is authentic by presupposing its not. imho.

Stands to reason though that those opposed would jump on this sooner, just as if there were something positive toward approval, you could bet your bottom dollar those who have already decided its true would be posting in droves. I really don't know how it will effect the case overall, will wait and see. I kind of doubt it will change anything definitively but is a great start toward getting that definitive decision. It shows its being worked under Benedict XVI

When it hits Le Observatory Romano and Zenit we will know its time the Church wants it to be made known. Right now it looks like a leak and propaganda to support a presupposed position.

One can never err in supposing an apparition is not authentic, for no apparition is necessary for salvation, and is never required to be accepted by anyone.

But one CAN err in supposing an apparition is authentic, for then they could be attributing something that is of satan to the Holy Spirit, and that is the same action that the Pharisees took when they said Jesus cast out demons by the power of the devil. Jesus sternly warned, as a result, against the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who objectively goes through the evidences discovered and put forth by the Bishops, using the criteria the Church gives, and has always given for discernment of such things, cannot fail but come to the conclusion that this is a false apparition.

It is simply wishful thinking that results in any other conclusion.

We are to discern, not simpy wait for the Church, but we are to use the guidelines the Church gives us, and not our own, or what seems best to us.


Obedience is first on the list, and Medjugorje fails it utterly. By itself, this is enough to condemn it. It is only a matter of time.

Which side of the fence do people want to be one when the Church does so? Do they want to be on the risky side, that approves it even though that risks this being from the devil?

Or do they want to be on the side of caution, which one can never err in being?
 
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Amylisa

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I'm not sure what my opinion is on Medjugorge. But this post is really good, TLF. You make some very good points on principles which can apply to just about any questionable thing.

Lots of good and thought provoking posts in this thread!
 
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thereselittleflower

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If I see the Virgin Mary in a taco shell I telling everyone and they can just try and stop me.

Really, seriously, how are you going to enforce silence on someone who either has or thinks he has seen an appartion ?

I think this doco is DOA

Of course, I would, wouldn't I ?
You can't. But the refusal to be silent when ordered would be the proof necessary for condemning the claims of a superantural event.

It is both a necessity to allow the invetigation to proceed unhindered, and a test.

If they fail the test of obedience, it is false.

And we can be sure of this, that God would not jeaphordize a message He wants us to have by giving to rebellious and prideful people.
 
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You can't. But the refusal to be silent when ordered would be the proof necessary for condemning the claims of a superantural event.

It is both a necessity to allow the invetigation to proceed unhindered, and a test.

If they fail the test of obedience, it is false.

And we can be sure of this, that God would not jeaphordize a message He wants us to have by giving to rebellious and prideful people.

TLF really now.

There is the chruch's rules and then the way the world sees it.

If I chose not to obey, claim its because the appartition told me not to obey what kind of position is the chruch in then and how do these rules help ?

I don't think they do, really.
 
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AMDG

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There is the chruch's rules and then the way the world sees it.

Yeah, and the we know that the way the world sees things is always right ;) especially since it doesn't have the protection of the Holy Spirit as the Church does.

If I chose not to obey, claim its because the appartition told me not to obey what kind of position is the chruch in then and how do these rules help ?

Well, we all would know that the alleged appartition is false. And we would also know that you just might have been into the "cooking sherry" again.
 
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Amylisa

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Is Med. the apparition that, years ago, had "the night of screams"? I remember seeing something on TV a long time ago, about some girls (i think there were only girls, no boys... not sure) who were supposed to be seeing Mary when this event happened. It seemed creepy to me.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?


Thank you for your response Joab. Thanks too for those links you posted.

I think the thing I saw on TV was about Garabandal,perhaps. I am pretty certain it was not about Medjugorge.
Anyway....
interesting thread.
 
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JoabAnias

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Thank you for your response Joab. Thanks too for those links you posted.

Your welcome. As I see it, the only prudent place to be on the matter is neutral and completely in line with the Church and I take that place its lead me to as a fruit of the apparition for me personally.

Anything less appears to be presumption.

Its easy to see why both the promoters and detractors hold their opinions. I think both presume.

Personally, I think such rampant presumption just perpetuates the indecision of the Church but thats just me applying prudence to the whole situation in the big picture and example of circumstance in all past approved apparitions.

I find it fascinating nevertheless and a trend toward the future in several ways.
 
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Fantine

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I am just curious as to whether any of you have ever experienced any miracles, great or small, in your life, or whether you have ever seen a heavenly sign...or a heavenly being...or if a loved one who died came and visited you...or whether anything out of the ordinary ever happened to you.

And don't you ever talk about it to the people you care about? I am not talking about full-scale "apparitions" with warnings to mankind--I am talking about things like when Mary appeared to a 30 year old friend with a poor cancer prognosis and told her she would survive....

So if you've had experiences like that, I just want you to know that it really helps me to hear them....so if you're dying to tell someone and are afraid of not following the rules, you can tell me. I will be an appreciative audience and I won't tattle.
 
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isabella1

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I am just curious as to whether any of you have ever experienced any miracles, great or small, in your life, or whether you have ever seen a heavenly sign...or a heavenly being...or if a loved one who died came and visited you...or whether anything out of the ordinary ever happened to you.

And don't you ever talk about it to the people you care about? I am not talking about full-scale "apparitions" with warnings to mankind--I am talking about things like when Mary appeared to a 30 year old friend with a poor cancer prognosis and told her she would survive....

So if you've had experiences like that, I just want you to know that it really helps me to hear them....so if you're dying to tell someone and are afraid of not following the rules, you can tell me. I will be an appreciative audience and I won't tattle.
Absolutely. But don't care to share them here. ;)Sorry.
 
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AMDG

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It's not a point of "not tattling". It's a point of being obedient to our mother, the Church, who has our best intentions at heart. (Peter and his successors were charged with "feeding Jesus' sheep and lambs"--that's us.)

I would think that all of us have experienced little miracles, but I don't think those are what is meant when the Church asks for obedience in order to investigate properly. Besides I'm pretty sure that the little miracles that we all have experienced are meant just for us. BTW I'm not talking about seeing Mary in a taco shell (and the message is?) I've heard of some people seeing various important people in potatoes, or in cloud formations for that matter--oddities but not "earth shaking" or something that someone needs approval for.
 
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JoabAnias

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I am just curious as to whether any of you have ever experienced any miracles, great or small, in your life, or whether you have ever seen a heavenly sign...or a heavenly being...or if a loved one who died came and visited you...or whether anything out of the ordinary ever happened to you.

And don't you ever talk about it to the people you care about? I am not talking about full-scale "apparitions" with warnings to mankind--I am talking about things like when Mary appeared to a 30 year old friend with a poor cancer prognosis and told her she would survive....

So if you've had experiences like that, I just want you to know that it really helps me to hear them....so if you're dying to tell someone and are afraid of not following the rules, you can tell me. I will be an appreciative audience and I won't tattle.

See them all the time and I think we miss most of them. But then there is also the odd occasion when it appears someone is mistakenly seeing a miracle in what is not there for various reasons.
 
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Davidnic

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I am just curious as to whether any of you have ever experienced any miracles, great or small, in your life, or whether you have ever seen a heavenly sign...or a heavenly being...or if a loved one who died came and visited you...or whether anything out of the ordinary ever happened to you.

And don't you ever talk about it to the people you care about? I am not talking about full-scale "apparitions" with warnings to mankind--I am talking about things like when Mary appeared to a 30 year old friend with a poor cancer prognosis and told her she would survive....

So if you've had experiences like that, I just want you to know that it really helps me to hear them....so if you're dying to tell someone and are afraid of not following the rules, you can tell me. I will be an appreciative audience and I won't tattle.

When my mother died her father was already very sick and dying (They were even in the hospital at the same time) and he was not in possession of all of his normal faculties. My grandmother made the decision that she would not tell him about my mothers death because it would be too difficult at the time for a number of reasons. But he would ask for her because there was never a day she would not come to visit him, no matter how sick she was herself. So even in a state not fully aware it stood out.

He did not last very long after my mother died. We brought him home to take care of him. The day he died was difficult. He was not awake and breathing badly. Doctors were in and out...and we knew it was only a matter of time. My sister was passing by his bed when he sat up with perfect clarity and looked to the empty space at the bottom of the bed. It was obvious he was fully in possession of himself for the first time in a long time. He smiled looked at the empty area and said my mothers name, and "There you are honey." And he died.


Another thing...not really apparition or vision but I consider it a miracle.

After I was accepted at the seminary my pastor asked if I would assist him on last rite calls if the family and person in question didn't mind. I said I was fine with that.

A few things from those moments and others I assisted on in Philadelphia have stuck with me. Some of them, usually the ones in emergency rooms in Philly are more memories of the physical. The nature of the wounds and such and the varying mental states of people in those moments can be hard to forget.

But one, in my small home town, is of a different nature. It is, to me, a miracle of compassion and mercy and a glimpse of the power of the sacraments.

We went to the hospital because the doctors said it was time for this old woman. She was in her eighties. We met with the family and the doctors first. The doctors told us not to expect too much on her end because she was very much out of it. The family echoed that thought. She has been suffering from Alzheimer’s for years and it had been difficult on them all.

The daughter told us that the woman did not even recognize any family anymore and didn't remember the words to any prayers. She did not recognize any of the priests who she had seen over the last two years and had not been able to identify a doctor or a nurse for even longer.

So, we did not expect much on her end.

When we entered the room she turned her head. It's tough to explain the look that a person in that state has unless you've seen it. They just are not there. There is no comprehension, or , if there is, the comprehension is somewhere else, but not on what the eyes are seeing. With their minds, they are not in the room with you. This was what it was like when she first turned her head.

Until her eyes passed over his collar. She paused and a light of dawning comprehension came over her. She sat up and started going through the drawers in the table for something. After a moment or two of frustration she found her rosary.

She asked what day it was and what time of year. We told her a Friday and in March. She shook her head, "not what month...church year." We told her it was lent. She started her rosary. She didn't miss a beat. Not a prayer. Not a mystery. Her love for Christ was obvious in her prayer.

We prayed it with her. The whole family did.

Us praying in a bit of shock.
The family in confusion.
And the woman in total confidence.

"Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

Those words were never stronger in their meaning and efficacy.

Father gave the last rites and she answered and gave a strong response whenever necessary.

She spent the night recognizing her children for the first time in years and talking to them. She died early in the morning, fully right with the Lord. Fully there with her family.

I will never doubt that the Lord takes care of us in those last moments. I learned not to worry about the end moments then. In those last moments, He will always make sure we have what we need. What Father would not.

Both of those are, I believe, revealed to me or my family because I have had a lot of death. My sister and I were late children and there are very few people left. It is difficult to count the number of people I buried before age 20.

Both of those things, as well as my own faith, have helped me to not fear death and to be able to come out of sorrow and help others out of it somewhat.

I believe that most private revelations of our lives are not apparitions or locutions...but God giving us what we need when we need it. Sometimes...He does it so well we never see it or notice it is different, it just heals us.

God reveals Himself, public and private, in earth shattering miracles like Lourdes...but also in daily graces beyond count. Of course there are other situations like St. Faustina and hundreds of people we don't even know. But for me...my experiences of what I would call miracles have been lovingly crafted personal reassurances that God has a plan.
 
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JoabAnias

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Davids post reminded me of a prophesy I think I heard just for me once while doing a communion service at a nursing home.

While setting up the altar and candles a little frail old lady of at least 90 yrs old was setting there and started to ramble something. When I looked up, she was pointing at me and saying, "you graduate this fall". She said it several times and it made me rather uncomfortable. I dismissed it as some sort of neurosis or delusion but a year later recalled it and realized that the fall before found me led by chance to a new city, home, job, parish and relationships. One could say that it was only a coincidence, but to me, it had significance and still does.

Many other times I have experienced the bizarre happening after heart felt prayer with resolution to Gods will no matter what the decision, especially the memorare for a specific intention. Are these bonified miracles, no, are they little reminders of the power of God in our lives though?

I could go on with many other things I think have been miracles that most people would find either insignificant or delusional but I am not so sure were and only really matter to me.
 
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isabella1

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I wont talk about my personal experiences (I leave that for my spiritual director and sometimes BF ;)), but in the Hospital, you see many things as David mentioned.

Working in the ER, OB ICU trauma, and now in the Neonatal ICU, one can not deny, miracles, visits from angels, saints, and other. Our God is so good in giving us what we need at the moment we need it, and in the most peculiar ways sometimes.

I know there is always discernment, but like Joab said, "I have experienced the bizarre happening after heart felt prayer with resolution to Gods will no matter what the decision", when the HS leads you to Gods will, there is no confusion of the prompting, or voice, and there is peace and a definite knowing within yourself that you can't deny, and you are almost compelled to follow.
 
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AMDG

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Yes, God gives us what we need when we need it. Now if you really want to get "goose bumps" get the story of Father Corapi. Unbelievable how God has acted in the life of that good man. (I think you can get his conversion story from Saint Joseph Communications.)
 
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Fantine

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That was beautiful, David. Thank you.

I think I've shared one or two things in the past.

When my son was confirmed, my brother was his sponsor. He had been diagnosed with MS a few years before, and when he got off the plane I was distressed by how much his physical condition had deteriorated in the six months since I'd seen him. When he poured milk onto his cereal, his hand shook so, and he had a severe limp. (He is a beautiful person.) I felt this lingering sadness throughout his visit. During the Confirmation Mass I sang with the choir. As we held hands during the "Our Father" (a good thing) I really felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. I prayed, "Lord, help my brother." I watched him limp up to Communion as I sang, and when he walked back past the choir he straightened and walked normally. Over the next few days he would sometimes limp and sometimes walk normally, but by the time he was home he went into a remission that lasted quite some time. That was probably fifteen years ago, and yes, his condition has gotten worse, although he is still walking. But I count one more year of perfect health as a miracle, God's miracle at a St. Louis Confirmation.

There are others, but I have to leave for work.
 
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thereselittleflower

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TLF really now.

There is the chruch's rules and then the way the world sees it.

If I chose not to obey, claim its because the appartition told me not to obey what kind of position is the chruch in then and how do these rules help ?

I don't think they do, really.

They help others to see that you would be either deluded by self, deceived by a demon, or lying and so would not pay attention to what your apparition is telling you, or you for that matter.

It is not so much about the individual who is having the apparition - it is about the faithful so they can be more sure of what is of God and what isn't.

Do you see?

For instance, the Medjugorje phenomena, most clearly does not meet this first test of obedience, and this is well documented by 3 commissions thus far. If the Church had put forth such guidelines in a formal manner when this had started, Medjugorje would have been exposed immediately and denounced by the Church if investigated; and those who chose to follow it would end up in schism if they obeyed the apparition over the Church, which is happening now anyway.
 
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