Vatican-New Guidelines for testing apparitions - OBEDIENCE FIRST TEST - Medjugorje?

[JoabAnias]

thank you
I actually don't know what I will do or go into ... I don't think I can be a researcher and I don't want to be a psychologist lol. I'm researching my options at this time. Many of my courses are based on the brain, but there's another problem with that - they assume it's ALL about the brain. And then other courses have a different approach (personality, abnormal psych, etc) filled with all the psychbabble lol . And many of my professors think that everything evolved - things like empathy and altruism. I have learned some good things in my cognition and perception classes though, about how people memorize and learn and such... I enjoyed learning about vision and other more 'objective' topics.

God bless!

I found brain research exciting. Abnormal psych bizarre and dependency counseling noble yet the system to be crippled. The majority of the patients I helped treat at a 28 day rehab were court mandated and not really wanting help. Even the crisis intervention center I worked at had "regulars" who would call in feeling suicidal like clockwork. The only area I found I had real interest in was one on one cognitive therapy (though didn't care to use people as guinea pigs for drug experimentation) and distrusted sociology and didn't have the ambition to go on for a PhD in psychiatry where such a practice could have been possible and the clergy was out but I still could become a monk. I still have my DSMIV-TR though but have ceased a continuing education curriculum but will diagnose ya if ya like.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hello all ...

Just found this forum. Very interesting. This will be my first post.

It is obvious that Therese is anti-Medjugorje so I don't expect anything I add will change that. However, I want to add my own points to the conversation.


On the contrary, in addition to multiple healings, conversions, and other events documented by priests and other Catholic clergy, there are an abundance of supernatural happenings at Medjugorje.

Actually, none of those are proof that anything supernatural is going on at Medjugorje.

Now please understand what the Church means by supernatural. They very narrowly define it as a private revelation that is authentically from God.

So, with that definition in mind none of the evidences you give above are proof that the appariton is supernatural, ie authentically God.

The Church teaches that conversion, etc flow from God's Grace, the Sacraments and the Church, not supernatural manifestations. They flow from the predispositon of the heart towards God, and God being God, can use anything, even something of the devil, to draw someone closer to Himself. It is not the alledged supernatural manifetation that is the cause of these happenings.

Additionally, there are not validly documented healings in all the multitude of years this has been going on. Claims of healing do not valid healings make. The Church has not documented one valid claim of healing. So no such claim can be made authentically to be from the manifestation.

Do humans have power to stop heavenly apparitions? The seers are not publishing the messages. The messages are being published by the parish of Medjugorje.

Give us a break here. How do you think those who actually publish the books get the messages? Telepathically?

The SEERS given them the messages - the seers were forbidden to publish them to anyone - publish does not mean merely in book form, but to give them to anyone.

They have repeatedly disobeyed the Church on this matter.

What an odd demand. How then is the Vatican, or anyone else for that matter, to determine authenticity?

They look at the EVENTS surrounding the claim first - they examine the seers for obeidience, honesty, credibility, freedom from mental and physical illness that could result in hallucinations or other impediments to determining it is authentic. They look at their behavior, are they trying to gain materially from the manifestations?

The seers and principals fail such tests miserably - I say this of all of the above except the mental issues, for I cannot remember what was done in that area so far.

But all the proofs you brought up above are looked at last - for satan can counterfeit all of them and has been known to do so -

The one thing satan cannot counterfeit is docile obedience to the Church - he cringes and cannot pull this one off.

It is the tests of all tests.

I agree with this point. But how can one truly discern without having visited Medjugorje? I went in October 2007 as an agnostic to appease my wife and was unexpectedly converted. I'm now in RCIA and love the Mass. Medjugorje was my 'gateway' to Christ.

God can use anything, even something demonic, to bring about conversion, healing, etc. God did so in my life. That didn't make what God used good instead of evil. But I didn't know it was evil at the time, as you did not know medjugorje is not what it claims to be.

Just because God has used something doesn't isn't proof that it is from God. The conversion you experienced did not flow from Medjugorje, but rather from the Church and Her Sacraments.

If your implication is that Medjugorje is demonic, please provide evidence of this. I mean really, Medjugorje has been a tremendous source of vocations and conversions. How is that demonic?

Again, see above. It is not the conversions and callings to vocations that are demonic, but the events taking place may be demonic. They may also be a total and absolute fraud perpeteuated by the seers and the rebellious Franciscan priests involved. The prinicipal spiritual advisor to the seers in the beginning is now under house arrest (so to speak) for his rebellion and is being investigated for heresy, false mysticism, and several other things. This is a serious matter for Medjugorje for it demonstrates that the seers were under the influence of someone engaged in such error and deception if the charges are laid on him.

Now, an important question revolveds around how sincere these conversions and vocations are remains to be seen for once the Vatican condemns Medjugorje, which it must to remain consistant with the reasons it has condemned other apparitions, what will they do? Will they remain faithful to the Church or get offended and fall away?

The place is in schism right now - that is not of God and no apparition of Mary would ever permit such a thing to happen.

It may be clear to you, but thousands of pilgrims who travel yearly to Medjugorje and many Catholic religious including priests, nuns, bishops and cardinals visit Medjugorje and derive spiritual strength from the pilgrimage. Pope John Paul spoke lovingly of Medjugorje.

It remains to be seen what the eventual fruit of that will be, for they do so in direct disobedience to the Bishops and the Vatican. Disobedience never yields good fruit, and is itself evidence of bad fruit.

Realy, may I recommend that you investigate the findings and positions of the local bishops involved on this matter - let them open your eyes.

Agreed. I note that many of your points are ones that have been made over time. They are not new. Yet, the Vatican has not taken action against Medjugorje. If it was so obviously false, why wouldn't the Vatican have taken action by now.

That is for the Vatican to tell us, but I have tried to give historical reasons why the Church has been slow to move on this. And the Vatican rarely gets involved with such issues. It is only rarely that this happens.

The longer they wait, the more complicated and difficult it will be if they do not approve.

I agree - or maybe it will start to loose its popularity and die out due to other issues . . . there are events in this world that will bring great hardship to many - people will not be able to afford to flock to Medjugorje anymore - and then Medjugorje may fold like a house of cards, for it is very dependent on tourism.

By the way, the original Bishop did accept the apparitions at Medjurgoje initially.

That is partially correct. He wanted to believe they were true. But there was no formal acceptance. His first investigation into it completely changed his mind, the findings were so obviously not in keeping with a true apparition.

Only after pressure from the communist government did he change his policy.

This is absolutely and catagorically false. He changed his mind based on the facts discovered during the investigation - such as the seers lied about how the whole thing started. The claim, which is still made today, is that one of the seers was out looking for a lamb. When this was questioned during the investigation, this story was told. The seer was warned to tell the truth because to lie to a bishop is to lie to God - the seer quickly changed her story and told the true one, which is a small group of them were sneaking outside behind their parent's backs to smoke cigarrettes.

After this admission under oath, which had been admitted to prior during a preliminary questioning, the seers continued to tell the lie. Seers were caught in other lies while under oath during the investigation.

There is so much wrong with Medjguorje. It points clearly to it being false.

Because Medjugorje is no longer a local phenomenon and has world-wide impact, the Vatican has removed jurisdiction for judging authenticity to Rome.

No, jurisdiction has not been removed. The Bishop retains jurisdiction. The Vatican, if and when it does an investigation, which I believe it will and soon, will do so in conjunction with the Bishop, consulting with the Bishop and it will be the Bishop who retains jurisdiction. He has a very, very good relationship with the Pope and CDF. He is not under suspicion for anything that would remove him from jurisdiction.

All of what you are saying here is nothing more than the propaganda Medjugorje puts out in opposition to the Church to confuse and protect itself from discovery. But when you investigate through the Church's documents, a very different picture emereges on almost everything having to do with Medjugorje.

One day, should the Vatican approve of Medjugorje as authentic, you still won't need to believe in it.

What will happen when the Vatican condemns it? Will you believe the Church?or the "apparition" which has denounced bishops of the Church before?

Mary, never, never denounces bishops or encourages disobedience to them ever.

Which will you believe?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, ideally I think there needs to be objectivity taught through catechisis of the faith and the actual position of the Church.

Shouldn't also those who are promoting them as coming from Mary be told to stop and dissist?

Perhaps we should look at a message that appears to be contrary to the faith and go from there.

I will differ that to you, to pick such a message if you like, as I have yet to find one and I have been raised Catholic, through parochial school and consecrated into many a confraternity and served the Church in some capacity most of my life.

I understand that "appears" is the operative word here, and that supporters of Medjugorje, or supporters of those who believe in Medjguorje, will try to take the appearance away, but that would be obfuscation.

There was one in Isabella's thread in the Chapel just the other day - I will go find it and we can discuss it if you like - had to find it elswhere - it is no longer there:

July 24, 1982
"You go to Heaven in full conscience: that which you have now. At the moment of death, you are conscious of the separation of the body and soul. It is false to teach people that you are reborn many times and that you pass to different bodies. One is born only once. The body, drawn from the earth, decomposes after death. It never comes back to life again. Man receives a transfigured body."

​

This false.

The body comes back to life again at the resurrection.

The body is RESURRECTED from the grave - the same body that was sown in corruption is raised in incorruption. It is the same body - it is brought back to life. That is the hope of the saints.

This statement that the body never comes back to life again is heretical in nature, and opposes divine revelation.

Mary would never make such a theological error.

Just like Jesus' body was brought back to life and raised incorruptable, so will our bodies be brought back to life, even if decomposed for thousands of years. It will be reconstituted and brought back to life.

I had a very long debate with a very orhtodox Catholic on another board who argued as this messages states - and I had to get to the bottom of what it was they were misunderstanding from the Church - she had to be shown how and where the Church taught that the decomposed body is brought back to life and raised from the grave. I was able to show her those teachings. She finally realized she needed to rethink her whole undertanding of the resurrection.

If I need to, I will find them again for you, but it may take a while.

In a nut shell, we will be raised with the body we have now - it will be brought back to life. We are not given a different "transfigured" body. Our present bodies will be brought back to life, raised and changed.

It is this type of theologiocal error that is evidence that the alledged apparition is false.

There are other messags similar to this interspersed among the very banal, common, and ordinary dronings of the messages from day to day.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Another messages that is theologically in error:

July 21, 1982

Concerning Fasting: "The best fast is on bread and water. Through fasting and prayer, one can stop wars, one can suspend the laws of nature. Charity cannot replace fasting. Those who are not able to fast can sometime replace it with prayer, charity, and a confession; but everyone, except the sick, must fast."
​

The Church DOES NOT teach that through fasting one can stop wars or suspend the laws of nature.

This places fasting into a position where it grants power to the believer that there is no support for in the teaching of the Church. This places this message in a superior position to Church teaching as the Church DOES NOT teach this is one of the purposes of fasting, to gain control over the laws of nature. That is a new age concept.

Here is what the Catholic Church teaches us the purpose of fasting is:

The subject of fasting is one that causes much confusion and even guilt which Satan can then use to beat over our heads. Offered here, therefore, are guidelines on how we should think about fasting.

The purpose of fasting is to participate in the saving mysteries of Christ, to share in His suffering, to express our commitment and devotion to God.


How to Think Properly About Fasting
by Bro. Ignatius Mary
(a Hermit of St. Michael)

http://www.saint-mike.org/library/ahermit/fasting.asp

​

This is also elaborated by St Thomas Aquinas quoted here:

The purpose of fasting is best summarized by St. Thomas Aquinas:

“Fasting is practiced for a three-fold purpose. First, in order to bridle the lusts of the flesh, wherefore the Apostle says: ‘In stripes, in prisons, in seditions, in labors, in watchings, in fastings, in chastity, in knowledge, in long-suffering, in sweetness, in the Holy Ghost, in charity unfeigned’ (2 Cor. 6:5,6), since fasting is the guardian of chastity. For, according to Jerome: ‘Venus is cold when Ceres and Bacchus are not there.’ That is to say, lust is cooled by abstinence in meat and drink. Secondly, we have recourse to fasting in order that the mind may arise more freely to the contemplation of heavenly things: hence it is related (Dan. 10) of Daniel that he received a revelation from God after fasting for three weeks. Thirdly, in order to satisfy for sins: wherefore it is written (Joel 2:12): ‘Be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting, and in weeping and in mourning.’ The same is declared by Augustine in a sermon (De Orat. et Jejun): Fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind, subjects one’s flesh to the spirit, renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, kindles the light of true chastity’” (Summa Theologicae, Question 147, Article 1).

​

The Holy Season of Lent

by

Bishop Mark Pivarunas, CMRI​

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/06Mar/mar6mit.htm

​

The teaching of the Church on the matter of fasting and its purpose elucidated above are nothing like what this alledged appariton teaches.

Mary does not make theological blunders like this. Yet this messages has Mary teaching something contrary to the Church, making fasting be a way of gaining power over the laws of nature.​

This is more in line with new age concepts than christianity.​

Such theological errors are evidence that this is not Mary.​

 

[JoabAnias]

Shouldn't also those who are promoting them as coming from Mary be told to stop and dissist?

Its above my pay grade to make that call. If they should be that is the Magisteriums place to say so. Thus far, they have not suppressed it as near as I can tell.

I actually think its beyond suppression and if the Church tries to it will result in schism. I think the Church realizes that and seeks discernment and healing rather than dominance. Then again maybe the know something we don't.

I understand that "appears" is the operative word here, and that supporters of Medjugorje, or supporters of those who believe in Medjguorje, will try to take the appearance away, but that would be obfuscation.

Perhaps but from what I can tell the majority are lifelong well meaning Catholics in love with Mary and Jesus.

There was one in Isabella's thread in the Chapel just the other day - I will go find it and we can discuss it if you like - had to find it elswhere - it is no longer there:

July 24, 1982
"You go to Heaven in full conscience: that which you have now. At the moment of death, you are conscious of the separation of the body and soul. It is false to teach people that you are reborn many times and that you pass to different bodies. One is born only once. The body, drawn from the earth, decomposes after death. It never comes back to life again. Man receives a transfigured body."

​

This false.

The body comes back to life again at the resurrection.

The body is RESURRECTED from the grave - the same body that was sown in corruption is raised in incorruption. It is the same body - it is brought back to life. That is the hope of the saints.

This statement that the body never comes back to life again is heretical in nature, and opposes divine revelation.

Mary would never make such a theological error.

Just like Jesus' body was brought back to life and raised incorruptable, so will our bodies be brought back to life, even if decomposed for thousands of years. It will be reconstituted and brought back to life.

I had a very long debate with a very orhtodox Catholic on another board who argued as this messages states - and I had to get to the bottom of what it was they were misunderstanding from the Church - she had to be shown how and where the Church taught that the decomposed body is brought back to life and raised from the grave. I was able to show her those teachings. She finally realized she needed to rethink her whole undertanding of the resurrection.

If I need to, I will find them again for you, but it may take a while.

In a nut shell, we will be raised with the body we have now - it will be brought back to life. We are not given a different "transfigured" body. Our present bodies will be brought back to life, raised and changed.

It is this type of theologiocal error that is evidence that the alledged apparition is false.

There are other messags similar to this interspersed among the very banal, common, and ordinary dronings of the messages from day to day.

Well, this body returns to the earth and decomposes and is no more so that seems true enough. If its restored in this exact state I don't want it. Mine is pretty pitiful. .

Seriously though, where does the Church teach that we get the exact same body back?

We are talking about this in the cremation thread which raises a good point, why then does the Church allow cremation and if were restored from Earth in what state are we restored.

I thought the Church subscribes to an Amillenial eschatology.

At best I can see this as different phraseology but not contrary to church teaching if one were to understand this body is to die and decay and the resurrected body is something given from God that even if is exact to this one (which no one is sure of) is indeed a transfigured one simply because God had made it anew.

What do we get in heaven?

 

[JoabAnias]

Another messages that is theologically in error:

July 21, 1982

Concerning Fasting: "The best fast is on bread and water. Through fasting and prayer, one can stop wars, one can suspend the laws of nature. Charity cannot replace fasting. Those who are not able to fast can sometime replace it with prayer, charity, and a confession; but everyone, except the sick, must fast."
​

The Church DOES NOT teach that through fasting one can stop wars or suspend the laws of nature.

This places fasting into a position where it grants power to the believer that there is no support for in the teaching of the Church. This places this message in a superior position to Church teaching as the Church DOES NOT teach this is one of the purposes of fasting, to gain control over the laws of nature. That is a new age concept.

Here is what the Catholic Church teaches us the purpose of fasting is:
<BLOCKQUOTE>The subject of fasting is one that causes much confusion and even guilt which Satan can then use to beat over our heads. Offered here, therefore, are guidelines on how we should think about fasting.

The purpose of fasting is to participate in the saving mysteries of Christ, to share in His suffering, to express our commitment and devotion to God.


How to Think Properly About Fasting
by Bro. Ignatius Mary
(a Hermit of St. Michael)

Again not contradictory to the Church teaching else approved apparitions and other devotions such as first Fridays/Saturdays and indulgences would be.

If God can do all things, which He can, then He can do so by our prayers which means our prayers can change the course of history if God wills it through our intercessions.

Messages from approved apparitions have said this same thing.

Prayer is the greatest power on Earth.

We need Magisterial teaching here on the power of prayer. Opinions of Hermits are not Magisterial.

The message is also saying that fasting is a must which is in total line with the Church.

I see nothing contrary there sister.

 

[SemperFidelis]

It may be clear to you, but thousands of pilgrims who travel yearly to Medjugorje and many Catholic religious including priests, nuns, bishops and cardinals visit Medjugorje and derive spiritual strength from the pilgrimage. Pope John Paul spoke lovingly of Medjugorje.

Sorry to largely ignore most of yuor other points, I'm sure someone else will (or has) address them, but for my information, can you provide evidence the Pope John Paul II actually spoke lovingly of Medjugorje? Just interested.

Agreed. I note that many of your points are ones that have been made over time. They are not new. Yet, the Vatican has not taken action against Medjugorje. If it was so obviously false, why wouldn't the Vatican have taken action by now. The longer they wait, the more complicated and difficult it will be if they do not approve. By the way, the original Bishop did accept the apparitions at Medjurgoje initially. Only after pressure from the communist government did he change his policy. Because Medjugorje is no longer a local phenomenon and has world-wide impact, the Vatican has removed jurisdiction for judging authenticity to Rome.

I don't think it has been handled entirely well by the Vatican, BUT, the Vatican's consistant position has been to re-iterate what the local Bishop has already ruled. As far as I know, the decisions and findings of the local Bishops have never been overruled or reversed. Again, happy to be proven wrong on that one.

Blessings,

Steve

 

[thereselittleflower]

[/color]

Its above my pay grade to make that call. If they should be that is the Magisteriums place to say so. Thus far, they have not suppressed it as near as I can tell.

The Local Bishop is the first and foremost authority to speak for the Church on the matter, and they, as well as the Bishops commission have repeatedly ordered the supppression of the messages, but have been ignored.

So, yes, the Church has supressed the messages. This is one of the huge areas of rebellion, by the seers and principals invovled, to the Church.

I have to say I am disappointed that this statement of position earlier:

To promote as authentic I do not agree with either.

​

is as far as it goes - oh well. . .. .

I actually think its beyond suppression and if the Church tries to it will result in schism.

If you mean it is beyond the power of the Bishops to get them to stop, most probably. . . . but that will mean that there is such rank disobedience and disdain for the authority of the Church, this proves it is false to the core.

And there is already schism. . . and the denouncment that is undoubtably coming will create an uproar I am sure among this false apparition's following, so that many may very well choose to go into schism and be excommunicated from the Church. But that will be their choice and will show the real fruit for all to see, which is rotten to its core.

These are those who have already separated themselves from the Church in their heart, wanting instead a Church to their own liking. The Church standing up to protect the faithful by condemning Medjugorje's apparitions will only bring this out into the open, not cause it. It is the rebellious hearts of the believers that will cause it.

These are those who do not believe the Church when She tells us that no apparition is essential to salvation. The Church could forbid all private revelaton tomorrow, and there would be no affect on one's salvation, for the Church, not apparitions, is the vehicle of salvation.

I think the Church realizes that and seeks discernment and healing rather than dominance. Then again maybe the know something we don't.

The Church has been slowly moving to this moment - and it has not been unknown for the Church to be forced to walk a tight line for reasons we do not know till much later, such as the issue with Hitler and the Jews.

So, don't read too much into the Church taking this long.

The faithful need to remember that no private revelation is so important that rejecting it would affect anyone's salvation.

Failure to obey the Bishops can very well affect one's salvation.

Perhaps but from what I can tell the majority are lifelong well meaning Catholics in love with Mary and Jesus.

And that doesn't tell us anything about the authenticity of the apparitions. Very well meaning people can be easily deceived because they run to easily after the supernatural. They enter the devil's playground when they do this, and are wide open to deception. Sometimes God let's us learn the hard way.

Well, this body returns to the earth and decomposes and is no more so that seems true enough.

That part wasn't highlighted as being a problem.

If its restored in this exact state I don't want it. Mine is pretty pitiful. .

I don't think you need to worry about that.

Seriously though, where does the Church teach that we get the exact same body back?

The scriptures tell us our body is sown a corruptable body, and raised an incorruptable body, the same one that is sown in the ground. What is SOWN is RAISED.

1 Corinthians 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.
43 It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
​

What is sown in the ground, the body, is raised. It just doesn't disappear, it is raised.


The Apostle's Creed - the CCC:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 11
"I BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY"


989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535

990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537 How do the dead rise?

997 What is "rising"? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection.

999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself";553 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, "all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear," but Christ "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body," into a "spiritual body":554


​

It should be abundantly clear by now that the message of the apparition is at complete odds with the teaching of the Church, and so is promoting error instead of truth, by claiming our bodies never come to life again.

The Church clearly teaches they do.

This is so blatant, so glaring, no one who can look at this objectively can believe that Mary would teach falsely.

This is proof this is not Mary.

We are talking about this in the cremation thread which raises a good point, why then does the Church allow cremation and if were restored from Earth in what state are we restored.

I thought the Church subscribes to an Amillenial eschatology.

What does amillenialism have to do with it? This has nothing to do with eschatology. It has to do with the resurrection.

At best I can see this as different phraseology but not contrary to church teaching if one were to understand this body is to die and decay and the resurrected body is something given from God that even if is exact to this one (which no one is sure of) is indeed a transfigured one simply because God had made it anew.

What do we get in heaven?

No, this contradicts the teaching of the Church which plainly states our dead bodies are brought back to life.

The "apparition" says "The body, drawn from the earth, decomposes after death. It never comes back to life again. "

The words of the Church and the apparition are clear and unambiguous . . .One clearly states our bodies come back to life. The other clearly states our bodies NEVER come back to life.

These are polar opposite claims. One is true, the other is false and plainly so.


The apparition teaches error.

 

[AMDG]

IMO the people being disobedient in regards to Medjugorje have caused much of the problems and there are problems. The Church has always required obedience before (and as part of the investigation into) approval. But somehow some think they are "better than their mother the Church" when it comes to discerning.

I know when I was chapel librarian, it caused me a lot of problems. A very kind couple donated twenty-two videos that were not only about Medjugorje but very pro-Medjugorje (even though the Church has not approved it). The priest in charge not only had me refuse the videos (to the consternation of the donators) but to then write the Church teaching about private revelation on all materials having to due with the Apparitions.

I think the Church has problems with it too. All Catholics have a right to the Mass and to the Sacraments of the Church. Sooo--when Catholics (even if they are being disobedient to what the Church teaches) want to travel to Medjugorje it is really not a "strange thing" to have a priest accompany...however it does seem to give an appearance of acceptance.

Then there was my problem in Bible Study. The people in the study were overwhelmingly pro-Medjugorje (even though the Church hadn't approved yet) and very loud about it too. I remember that my Secular Carmelite friend and I felt very uncomfortable as we sat silently and listened to it all as a "captive audience" because we wished to study the Bible (which had nothing to do with Medjugorje.)

Then there is the simple thing as a gift to me of a beautiful handmade Rosary. The person giving me this beautiful Rosary was a Medjugorje devotee and so the center piece is very prominant about Medjugorje and I feel that if I use the Rosary (like I would love), I would be silently giving some the idea that I too am a Medjugorje fan--even though the Church says "wait". (Ordinary jump rings were not used--wire bow connectors that seem almost seamless were used, so I cannot change out the center-piece without doing damage to the whole Rosary.)

Of course, as seen here on this board, there seems to be confusion about Medjugorje. (And believe me, this confusion is not lost on anti-Catholics who grasp onto every little thing to attack the Church--I know since I did do apologetics for ten years before coming here about four years ago, but I think the apologist-posters that go to GT on here right now can attest to that.)

 

[thereselittleflower]

Again not contradictory to the Church teaching else approved apparitions and other devotions such as first Fridays/Saturdays and indulgences would be.

If God can do all things, which He can, then He can do so by our prayers which means our prayers can change the course of history if God wills it through our intercessions.

Messages from approved apparitions have said this same thing.

Prayer is the greatest power on Earth.

We need Magisterial teaching here on the power of prayer. Opinions of Hermits are not Magisterial.

The message is also saying that fasting is a must which is in total line with the Church.

I see nothing contrary there sister.

The issue is the apparition, intead of teaching what the Church teaches on fasting, it teaches what we find in the New Age and spiritualist religions such as the Indian religions, for example the Mandan, where men and women fasted for power, the Chippewa, and the Ojibwa. Such ideas have found there way into some protestant circles.

But they are not Catholic ideas or teaching.

Christians, on the other hand, are taught NEVER to seek power over anything other than their own fallen human nature, but to seek meekness, humility, to place all their reliance on God.

Yes, Joab, this is not the teaching of the Church and so does not conform to the teaching of the Church but introduces New Age, spiritualist ideas under the guise of being from Mary.

Error is pernicious and dangerous, for it is so well hidden, so many are deceived easily, and the seeds of error are planted.


And by the way, the post cut off because of a formatting problem. If you go back you will find what was chopped off as I corrected it. You will see that I have quoted also an Arch Bishop on the matter. And if that is not enough:

Fasting and abstinence gives Catholics an opportunity to slow down and draw nourishment from a different source. As acts of penance, fasting and abstinence help us acknowledge the sin in our lives. “When we fast and abstain we take attention away from ourselves,”

Father DiNardo
http://www.catholic.org/diocese/diocese_story.php?id=23168



With roots deep in scripture and Christian tradition, the practice of fasting is essentially a penitential practice......

http://uscatholic.claretians.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5987

​

Yet this "apparition" would have us focus on ourselves and develop a desire for power to be granted through fasting.

TWO TOTALLY CONTRADICTORY CONCEPTS AND TEACHINGS.

And here is the teaching of the Church on fasting, its purpose:

2043 The fourth precept ("You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church") ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.


1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."

​

Now it is important to note this warning:

1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting "in order to be seen by men").


​

Fasting was never given to us to use to manipulate God to give us what we want, what we desire (here the "apparition" is telling us to desire power over the laws of nature); fasting was never given to us to twist the arm of God to giving us anything supernatural (like power over the laws of nature).

To fast for something like power over the laws of nature is a serious abuse and misuse of fasting.

We must remember that the Church, in Her wisdom, through Her saints and doctors of the Church tells us NEVER to desire anything supernatural, because the desire itself makes us wide open to the deceptions of satan himself.

Mary would NEVER lead us to desire something supernatural or to so misuse fasting in any way, let alone such a dangerous way!

 

[Davidnic]

Don't know if this was posted yet. But here is an English article on the issue:

link

It will be a vademecum, much like the one to confessors. No word yet if the procedures outlined (The group of psychologists and such) will be done for pending cases that predate the vademecum. My thoughts on it are that the info ultimately comes from a conservative leaning Italian magazine and is being picked up by papers that usually do not represent the news from Rome correctly. That does not mean that the description is not correct but I would rather see CNS or Zenit giving the info or at least picking up the story.

So for me I am really interested in the document the CDF is working on...but honestly need to wait to see what it is going to say. Vademecum's are always well written and thought out...so that is good.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thanks David. Interesting - I just checked last night to see if there were any English sources yet, and again just now, and google news isn't showing it at all. Very interesting.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry to largely ignore most of yuor other points, I'm sure someone else will (or has) address them, but for my information, can you provide evidence the Pope John Paul II actually spoke lovingly of Medjugorje? Just interested.

There were no such words.

I don't think it has been handled entirely well by the Vatican, BUT, the Vatican's consistant position has been to re-iterate what the local Bishop has already ruled. As far as I know, the decisions and findings of the local Bishops have never been overruled or reversed. Again, happy to be proven wrong on that one.

Blessings,

Steve

The decisions of the local Bishops have never beene overruled or reversed. In fact, the vatican is involved by the request of the Bishop of Mostar.

Here is an interesting history of decisions and orders of the Bishops of Mostar to stop with the phenomena and messages, etc, that have been totally ignored and to which there has been absolutely no obedience:

http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isit10.htm

 

[Adammi]

(I just read an article about this on the Huffington Post. I saw this thread here a couple of days ago and found it interesting that this story is getting even national (and I assume international) attention in the media..http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/catholics-forced-to-keep_n_157422.html)

 

[DrTim]

There were no such words.

The decisions of the local Bishops have never beene overruled or reversed. In fact, the vatican is involved by the request of the Bishop of Mostar.

As I'm new to the forum, I am not yet able to post links or images. Go to this website to see Pope John Paul's words on Medjugorje in his own writing and tell me he did not write lovingly of Medjugorje.

<renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/071201>

Also there is a link describing the new commission established in 2006 to study Medjugorje.

 

[Amylisa]

Is Med. the apparition that, years ago, had "the night of screams"? I remember seeing something on TV a long time ago, about some girls (i think there were only girls, no boys... not sure) who were supposed to be seeing Mary when this event happened. It seemed creepy to me.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[thereselittleflower]

As I'm new to the forum, I am not yet able to post links or images. Go to this website to see Pope John Paul's words on Medjugorje in his own writing and tell me he did not write lovingly of Medjugorje.

<renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/071201>

Also there is a link describing the new commission established in 2006 to study Medjugorje.

Why do you believe this site is telling you the truth? If these are legitimate, how is it that this mandates a favorable response? This can be interpreted also to be concern negative about what is going on there too.

What exactly is he thanking someone for?

Additionally, regarding the claims made by Medjugorje supporters of what Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI have said:

“I can only say that the statements on Medjugorje that have been attributed to the Holy Father (John Paul II) and to me have been made up out of thin air.”

–Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), interview in Der Speigel magazine, July 22, 1998.
​

I would not be too quick to make much out of these "letters". The supporters of Medjugorje have been known to make fraudulant claims, even about real items.
For instance, there is a real item floating around that is supposedly a special acknowledgement and blessing from Pope John Paul II to one of the priets, one principal advisors of the seers . . . . . . it looks really official, has his signature, says the words it says . . . . . BUT there is absolutely nothing special or personal about it.

The priest involved went into the store at the Vatican, purchased a "blessing" document with the Pope's signature, which anyone can do at any time, and then had his name added to it. Medjugorje supporters have been trying to make this into something special and personal ever since.

That is fraud.
What I see happening, if these are legitimat, is something ambiguous being forced to mean something approving. The words are very, very ambiguous and can be given different interpretations and so do not mandate anything positive about the apparitions at all.


From what I have found, the ONLY place these alledged "letters" are found is in a pro-Medjugorje book. There is no outside. Where are these letters? Where is the proof that they are not forgeries?

Additonally, his private words to someone are not the same thing as having him speak out favorably about Medjugorje. These "letters" are not evidence he spoke "lovingly" about Medjugorje, as in the apparitions. Nothing in the "letters" mentions the apparitions at all.


My post got chopped somehow - so I edited it to this point.

 

[JoabAnias]

Is Med. the apparition that, years ago, had "the night of screams"? I remember seeing something on TV a long time ago, about some girls (i think there were only girls, no boys... not sure) who were supposed to be seeing Mary when this event happened. It seemed creepy to me.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Here are some competent articles on the issue that anyone interested in discerning the truth and not just the biased hype should read:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFAUBRY.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/DECORMIR.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/MEDJVAT.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/APPARIT.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ZANICMED.HTM

 

[Fantine]

Most "apparitions" never become tourist destinations, but yet I believe that most of us have experiences of God's presence in our lives, and when friends or family members share testimonies of these experiences, my faith is strengthened.

Testimony is what grew the early Church, and testimony, in small faith-sharing groups, for example, is what grows the Church today.

I think that apparitions become dangerous when people start claiming that Mary, for example, has a very specific message for the entire world. I do think that they should be investigated very carefully.

But I hope to continue to hear and share individual experiences of God's presence, experiences without messages for the world. I find them very helpful, personally, and church would be quite barren without them.

I certainly hope that the Pope is not implying that people should stop sharing their individual experiences of God.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

TLF,
Thanks for posting this. I look forward to hearing more about this as it trickles into the English language.
I think it will be a blessing to have things laid out for parishioners so they can know and understand what is acceptable and what is not.