Is this true?

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theIdi0t

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Is this true? particularly the part in bold.

"Isn't the theory of evolution, that has been peer-tested ad infinitum and confirmed in hundreds of different ways, a journey too? A journey that bends toward a stronger species -- or a newer one and yet a newer with successively keener attributes."

I'm compelled to believe it isn't true, that evolution is not some sort of path to super human beings or whatever else have you, and I can vaguely remember arguments that agree with me. But for some reason I'm stumped to actually articulate why this isn't true. And I'm hoping one of the TE can help me understand that? And perhaps even direct me to some articles that elaborate on this as well, as I was having trouble finding some myself.
 

gluadys

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Is this true? particularly the part in bold.

"Isn't the theory of evolution, that has been peer-tested ad infinitum and confirmed in hundreds of different ways, a journey too? A journey that bends toward a stronger species -- or a newer one and yet a newer with successively keener attributes."

I'm compelled to believe it isn't true, that evolution is not some sort of path to super human beings or whatever else have you, and I can vaguely remember arguments that agree with me. But for some reason I'm stumped to actually articulate why this isn't true. And I'm hoping one of the TE can help me understand that? And perhaps even direct me to some articles that elaborate on this as well, as I was having trouble finding some myself.

No it is not true. The author is misinterpreting "fitness" and "adaptation" to mean "stronger" "keener" and in general, superior to earlier species.

He is also making the "ladder" rather than "bush" error in thinking that evolution only goes in one direction.

One example I came across recently--though I can't remember where to provide a link--involved multiple generations of yeast (IIRC). The researchers kept samples of the yeast from various generations and put two strains into an environment to see which would prevail.

They found that if you put two strains together which were only one generation apart (strain 14 vs strain 13 or strain 8 vs strain 7) the newer generation always out-performed its immediate predecessor. But that didn't always work if you took generations farther apart. If you put strain 14 and strain 7 together, the chances were good that the earlier strain 7 would out-compete the later strain 14. So, what you get is not a linear journey, but a circular one.

Check out Understanding Evolution for more info
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
 
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theIdi0t

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No it is not true. The author is misinterpreting "fitness" and "adaptation" to mean "stronger" "keener" and in general, superior to earlier species.

He is also making the "ladder" rather than "bush" error in thinking that evolution only goes in one direction.

One example I came across recently--though I can't remember where to provide a link--involved multiple generations of yeast (IIRC). The researchers kept samples of the yeast from various generations and put two strains into an environment to see which would prevail.

They found that if you put two strains together which were only one generation apart (strain 14 vs strain 13 or strain 8 vs strain 7) the newer generation always out-performed its immediate predecessor. But that didn't always work if you took generations farther apart. If you put strain 14 and strain 7 together, the chances were good that the earlier strain 7 would out-compete the later strain 14. So, what you get is not a linear journey, but a circular one.

Check out Understanding Evolution for more info
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Thank you so much gluadys, I knew I could count on you. I hope you don't mind if I quote what you wrote here in my response to that individual in another forum (of course crediting you here in the process).
 
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Snowcaps3

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Scientifically speaking, to create a "super-human," one would need some kind of benefitial mutation in the human race to further evolution.
As of this day, we have yet to find any kind of benefitial mutation, especially one that would increase genetic information (which would be the kind of change we would need).
 
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gluadys

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Scientifically speaking, to create a "super-human," one would need some kind of benefitial mutation in the human race to further evolution.
As of this day, we have yet to find any kind of benefitial mutation, especially one that would increase genetic information (which would be the kind of change we would need).

Why "more genetic information"? There are yeast and plenty of plants with way more genes than humans have, yet we seem to do quite well with only 25,000 or so genes.

And what makes you think we have no examples of beneficial mutations? There are quite a few actually, such as one that occurred in Germany that increases muscular strength, those that facilitate oxygen use at high altitudes (one in Tibet/Nepal and a different one in the Andes), one found in circumpolar people that increases circulation to the hands when exposed to cold temperatures, one in an Italian family that protects against cardio-vascular disease and another in Europe that reduces the incidence of HIV infection and one that turned up in Burkina Faso a few years back that protects against malaria and is expected to replace the more common gene (the sickle cell gene) within 50 years as it does not have the deleterious side effects of the sickle-cell gene.
 
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The Barbarian

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Scientifically speaking, to create a "super-human," one would need some kind of benefitial mutation in the human race to further evolution.
As of this day, we have yet to find any kind of benefitial mutation

One of my favorites is a mutation that alters one copy of a gene for a blood protein to make individuals having it, almost completely immune to hardening of the arteries. A group of people in Italy have it, and it is recent enough that they were able to track it back to a single individual.

There are numerous other examples. Would you like to learn about some of them?

especially one that would increase genetic information (which would be the kind of change we would need).

All mutations, useful or not, increase genetic information in a population. Would you like to see the numbers on that?

"Information increase" really has nothing to do with it.
 
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juvenissun

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No it is not true. The author is misinterpreting "fitness" and "adaptation" to mean "stronger" "keener" and in general, superior to earlier species.

He is also making the "ladder" rather than "bush" error in thinking that evolution only goes in one direction.

One example I came across recently--though I can't remember where to provide a link--involved multiple generations of yeast (IIRC). The researchers kept samples of the yeast from various generations and put two strains into an environment to see which would prevail.

They found that if you put two strains together which were only one generation apart (strain 14 vs strain 13 or strain 8 vs strain 7) the newer generation always out-performed its immediate predecessor. But that didn't always work if you took generations farther apart. If you put strain 14 and strain 7 together, the chances were good that the earlier strain 7 would out-compete the later strain 14. So, what you get is not a linear journey, but a circular one.

Check out Understanding Evolution for more info
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

I think evolutionist behaved almost like an opportunist on this issue. You said A, they replied B. You said B, they replied by A.

When I said: evolution moved life toward a higher level, they would say: No. evolution is random.
If I argued: random change would include backward change, they would say: No, it moved toward a "better" adaptation.

The problem is: the environment of the earth changed back and forth within the time range of any single evolutional event. So "better" and "worse" conditions alternated in earth history. However, the life-tree seemed suggest that the newly evolved life is always more complicate than the old life forms. And no matter how successful was the adaptation, they ALWAYS extinct at some time when the environmental conditions were not necessary the worst. Even the environment might go sour in terms of living conditions, I have never known any life evolved backward to a simpler but "more adaptive" form (why not?), or evolved back and forth in trying to adapt to the environmental change. To me, if evolution were real, it is moving toward something and is NOT random.

In short, if evolution were really random, than the normal extinction process should not happen. (* normal means no dramatic changes such as those caused the mass extinction)
 
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busterdog

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One of my favorites is a mutation that alters one copy of a gene for a blood protein to make individuals having it, almost completely immune to hardening of the arteries. A group of people in Italy have it, and it is recent enough that they were able to track it back to a single individual.

There are numerous other examples. Would you like to learn about some of them?

All mutations, useful or not, increase genetic information in a population. Would you like to see the numbers on that?

"Information increase" really has nothing to do with it.

This will be a little crankier than your post deserves. I havent been listening very well to evolutionist posts, probably because of another thread on creationist "lies". You have politely offered to teach and few of us are giving you the time of day, unfortunately.

Clearly, mutations do not increase information, except wierd things like polyploidy. They either add or subtract from BENEFICIAL information. The consensus is that most mutations subtract from beneficial information.

The thrust of newDarwinism is to recognize the complexity of the mathematics and thus the virtual necessity that mutation subtract from beneficial information, unless there is something mysterious added.

And once again, the evidence of evolution is more akin to a Rorschach test than proof. Not that it isnt evidence ... I understand how and why this example is used. Its not frivolous, but its not ironclad proof of a beneficial mutation, even if it is a bit of evidence that can be interpreted as such.

Being tall or short can be beneficial or detrimental under the right conditions --- and it can happen by deletion of information. If the conditions are right, it SEEMS beneficial. Thus, the Rorschach test -- you see what you want to see in the result of "mutation." This might also seem like adaption. But, if you are deleting beneficial (even if recessive) information, you are not getting something built for the long haul, but rather a very narrow niche adaptation, leading to trouble when you need to move on to a new and different niche. But of course, Darwinism is about the very long haul, which is why the issue is so important and why the short-sighted view of what is "beneficial" has to be severely challenged to see if the extrapolation is valid.

The first thing I think when I see your example is that I have no idea where the evidence came from, but I have a really good guess how it ends. What has probably happened is that, like out of control (practically random) borrowing by the US Gov., you have not increased beneficial organization, you have simply moved the problem elsewhere by taking away from beneficial structure. Yes indeed, you are better off in a narrow niche of a liquidity crisis, but the beneficial structure that allows the economy to work is being compromised. Who wants to bet the evidence supports that analogy? The supposed benefit will be seen in a detriment moved into a different aspect of the organism, because beneficial structure is removed.

How about this, seems I am right again. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/2003/0221.asp

Now in gaining an anti-oxidant activity, the protein has lost a lot of activity for making HDLs. So the mutant protein has sacrificed specificity. Since antioxidant activity is not a very specific activity (a great variety of simple chemicals will act as antioxidants), it would seem that the result of this mutation has been a net loss of specificity, or, in other words, information. This is exactly as we would expect with a random change.
And the point of that is not being "right" (that and 1.25 gets me a cup of coffee). The point is that the Darwinist interpretation is so predictable and easily attacked on the same basis over and over. Like the speciation thing. Its another example of some valid evidence for the Darwinist proposition, but it is demonstrably overblown evidence because that is what the philosophy behind it demands and that is all it can see. Since there is no alternate theory to Drawinism that gets the faintest recognition, where else could you possibly go as a Darwinist with this evidence of HDL metabolism?

So, the creationists are paying attention and are armed with science, and not the kind you get from correspondence school.

The whole notion of neodarwinism should also provide the cautionary tale. Neodarwinism is based upon the idea that random mutation is not a sufficient engine of change and that genetic material must have a tendency to self-organize to overcome the enormous complexity required to create beneficial change. Now that tendency -- well, its pretty darn mysterious where it comes from -- is not a hypothesis. It is not falsifiable. It is not predictable. It just happens, but no one is ever clear how in advance. What exactly does that leave you with? The clear prediction that since that tendency is a very narrowly specialized facility that virtually all mutations of enormously compliciated systems must remove beneficial information and organization.
 
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The Barbarian

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Clearly, mutations do not increase information, except wierd things like polyploidy.

Sounds pretty strange to me, but let's see your numbers. Then I'll show you mine. Fair enough?

They either add or subtract from BENEFICIAL information.

That seems completely at odds with the evidence. Is is possible that you don't know what "information" means, or how to calculate it?

The consensus is that most mutations subtract from beneficial information.

No. That's wrong. In fact, the evidence shows that all mutations increase information. "Beneficial information" is not a term used in information theory. I think you're confusing "information" and "useful." They aren't the same thing.

And you probably should know that most mutations are neither measurably harmful nor useful.

The thrust of newDarwinism is to recognize the complexity of the mathematics and thus the virtual necessity that mutation subtract from beneficial information, unless there is something mysterious added.

Sounds kinda like "new age" to me. And apparently almost as grounded in reality as new age.



AIG has no credibility with me since they were caught altering the statments of scientists to make it appear they thought the opposite of what the statement actually said. (details if you like) But even they admit that it's a favorable mutation:

The mutant form of the protein is less effective at what it is supposed to do, but it does act as an antioxidant, which seems to prevent atherosclerosis (hardening of arteries). In fact, because of the added -SH on the cysteine, 70% of the proteins manufactured bind together in pairs (called dimers), restricting their usefulness. The 30% remaining do the job as an antioxidant.

"What it is supposed to do" is meaningless in science. But the mutated protein has assumed a novel function which increases the fitness of those having it. BTW, there are still proteins that make HDLs, but now there is also a protein with this new function.

They are trying to put the best possible spin on it, but there's no getting around the fact that the mutation is a favorable one. Any mutation that increases the number of functions in an organism could never be considered a decrease in specificity. I'm sure you understand that much.

So, the creationists are paying attention and are armed with science, and not the kind you get from correspondence school.

Not this time, at least. The idea that adding a new function to the organism (while retaining the old function) is a loss of specificity is pretty dumb, if you know anything about biology.

The whole notion of neodarwinism should also provide the cautionary tale. Neodarwinism is based upon the idea that random mutation is not a sufficient engine of change and that genetic material must have a tendency to self-organize to overcome the enormous complexity required to create beneficial change.

Nope. That's not what it is. It's "random mutation plus natural selection explains evolution."

The "tendency to self-organize" is just a red herring. It's not part of neodarwinism at all. A lot of my fellow scientists get pretty angry about creationists just making up stuff like that. Me, I'm generally willing to grant that many of them really believe things like that, and education can help reduce the amount of rancor in these discussions.
 
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The Barbarian

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Here's a good example:

When I said: evolution moved life toward a higher level, they would say: No. evolution is random.

Darwin's great discovery was that it wasn't random. There are things like genetic drift, but you can't get large scale evolution such as the formation of a cecal valve in lizards, with a random process. Natural selection picks out the useful ones and removes the rest.
 
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juvenissun

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Here's a good example:



Darwin's great discovery was that it wasn't random. There are things like genetic drift, but you can't get large scale evolution such as the formation of a cecal valve in lizards, with a random process. Natural selection picks out the useful ones and removes the rest.

Natural selection is an random process. Why should it not be random? The best situation we can think of it is that it is a cyclic process. If we list all processes included in the so-called "natural selection", I should not expect any of them push the evolution of any life form toward any direction. But the apparent "fact" of life evolution said the opposite.

What were the natural selection processes that push ape to human? Are those very natural selection processes still working today? Is it possible that human evolves back to another ape-like species due to a set of different natural selection processes? Why not? Why must human evolve into a more intelligent beings (like aliens on UFO)? Is the evolution from ape to human one of many possible consequences of the random process? What are other possibilities? and why did they not happen?
 
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busterdog

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Sounds pretty strange to me, but let's see your numbers. Then I'll show you mine. Fair enough?



That seems completely at odds with the evidence. Is is possible that you don't know what "information" means, or how to calculate it?



No. That's wrong. In fact, the evidence shows that all mutations increase information. "Beneficial information" is not a term used in information theory. I think you're confusing "information" and "useful." They aren't the same thing.

And you probably should know that most mutations are neither measurably harmful nor useful.



Sounds kinda like "new age" to me. And apparently almost as grounded in reality as new age.




AIG has no credibility with me since they were caught altering the statments of scientists to make it appear they thought the opposite of what the statement actually said. (details if you like) But even they admit that it's a favorable mutation:

The mutant form of the protein is less effective at what it is supposed to do, but it does act as an antioxidant, which seems to prevent atherosclerosis (hardening of arteries). In fact, because of the added -SH on the cysteine, 70% of the proteins manufactured bind together in pairs (called dimers), restricting their usefulness. The 30% remaining do the job as an antioxidant.

"What it is supposed to do" is meaningless in science. But the mutated protein has assumed a novel function which increases the fitness of those having it. BTW, there are still proteins that make HDLs, but now there is also a protein with this new function.

They are trying to put the best possible spin on it, but there's no getting around the fact that the mutation is a favorable one. Any mutation that increases the number of functions in an organism could never be considered a decrease in specificity. I'm sure you understand that much.



Not this time, at least. The idea that adding a new function to the organism (while retaining the old function) is a loss of specificity is pretty dumb, if you know anything about biology.



Nope. That's not what it is. It's "random mutation plus natural selection explains evolution."

The "tendency to self-organize" is just a red herring. It's not part of neodarwinism at all. A lot of my fellow scientists get pretty angry about creationists just making up stuff like that. Me, I'm generally willing to grant that many of them really believe things like that, and education can help reduce the amount of rancor in these discussions.

The answer to your question then is, no, I dont think I want to learn more.

When Dawkins was quoted in Ben Stein's movie, we never got to the essence of this discussion, but there was all this philosophical nonsense about how Dawkins was abused. Thats kind of where we are now. The substance gets buried in haggling over whether fair use has been made of what someone says. Then there is all the useless haggling over whether one is properly using words like "beneficial" and "information."
 
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gluadys

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What were the natural selection processes that push ape to human? Are those very natural selection processes still working today?

To some extent. For example, the range of jungle environments continues to decrease. A complete destruction of this habitat would mean the end of wild populations of gorillas and chimpanzees.



Is it possible that human evolves back to another ape-like species due to a set of different natural selection processes?

Not probable, but yes, possible. However, remember it would not be back to the same ape that was the common ancestor of human and chimpanzee. Such a reversion of the human species would still be human and have indicators of its human ancestry. Just so, the adaptation of a whale to ocean life (like that of its long-distant fish ancestors) did not turn it back into a fish, but into a marine mammal. So a human species that re-adapted to a life in the trees would not be a chimpanzee or gorilla or primitive ape but a human who adapted to an ape way of life.




Is the evolution from ape to human one of many possible consequences of the random process? What are other possibilities? and why did they not happen?

Who says they didn't? We are the only surviving species in the lineage that diverged from chimpanzees, but there were many others, as we see in the fossil record.
 
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The Barbarian

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The answer to your question then is, no, I dont think I want to learn more.

I kinda figured. I'd still be interested in your numbers on how a mutation reduces information in a population, though.

When Dawkins was quoted in Ben Stein's movie, we never got to the essence of this discussion, but there was all this philosophical nonsense about how Dawkins was abused.

Being a Christian, I'm a little more concerned that he banned Christians who accept evolution from his film.

Thats kind of where we are now. The substance gets buried in haggling over whether fair use has been made of what someone says. Then there is all the useless haggling over whether one is properly using words like "beneficial" and "information."

You do know that there is a rigorous scientific definition of those words, and mathematical formulas that are used to calculate them. And it's more than just numbers. The same formula that's used to measure the increase in information caused by a mutation is also used to make sure a very weak message from a spacecraft many millions of miles away, gets received by us on Earth.

In short, our way works. I'm waiting to see what your way looks like.
 
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