Will Israel make the same mistake with Hamas that it made with Hezbollah?

[S53]

Terrorism....

Beheading journalists.
Blowing buses up.
Flying planes into buildings.
Killing your own family members.


Have we not been over this in another thread? Sheesh.

 

[FrenchAffair]

I think the typical world view of this conflict is that at one time, the world rejects the indiscriminate violence of Hamas

So indiscriminate violence = 4 dead civilians
Discriminate violence = 400+ dead in a matter of days?

 

[FrenchAffair]

Indiscriminant killing. An intent to maim or kill at random. An intent to cause fear and lawlessness in general by killing anyone, especially by killing at random from the civilian population. Lawless militancy with no respect for the basic rights of others. Satan worship; Material worship of the Lawless One.

Need I go on?

In other words.... "terrorism" is just what you label the other side. If that is the definition of terrorism then all of the acts of Israel fall into that definition.

But I think you miss the point with random, even with "terrorism" there is method to it. It is inflicting terror to achive a political goal. Just like Zionist groups did in the early 30's against the British & Palestinians, just like Israel does today against the Palestinian people, just as Hamas does against Israel.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Ah, the bad American Protestants.

Well this Canadian Catholic also supports Israel. Imagine that.

The Catholic Church does not support Israel, so in that act you are acting against and outside the Catholic Church.

"Mr. Arafat, as I thank you for the warm welcome you have given me in the name of the Palestinian Authority and People, I express all my happiness at being here today. How can I fail to pray that the divine gift of peace will become more and more a reality for all who live in this land, uniquely marked by God's interventions? Peace for the Palestinian people! Peace for all the peoples of the region! No one can ignore how much the Palestinian people have had to suffer in recent decades. Your torment is before the eyes of the world. And it has gone on too long.

The Holy See has always recognized that the Palestinian people have the natural right to a homeland, and the right to be able to live in peace and tranquility with the other peoples of this area. In the international forum, my predecessors and I have repeatedly proclaimed that there would be no end to the sad conflict in the Holy Land without stable guarantees for the rights of all the peoples involved, on the basis of international law and the relevant United Nations resolutions and declarations... Dear Friends, I am fully aware of the great challenges facing the Palestinian Authority and People in every field of economic and cultural development. In a particular way my prayers are with those Palestinians—Muslim and Christian—who are still without a home of their own, their proper place in society and the possibility of a normal working life. My hope is that my visit today to the Deheisha Refugee Camp will serve to remind the international community that decisive action is needed to improve the situation of the Palestinian people. I was particularly pleased at the unanimous acceptance by the United Nations of the Resolution on Bethlehem 2000, which commits the international community to help in developing this area and in improving conditions of peace and reconciliation in one of the most cherished and significant places on earth." - Pope John Paul II

you would be wise to follow the words of this holy man and the position of your church.

 

[FrenchAffair]

In view of this statement, how do you explain Islam ruling over your home for the past 1400 years?????

I do not equate Islam with tyranny, especially from the historical perspective of Palestinian Christians.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Intentionally targetting civilians.

And I'm not talking about the unintentional civilian casualties that occur when Hamas hides behind them. That's on Hamas.

Where is Hamas to go? Israel has 1.5 million Palestinians caged in an area about half the size of Detroit. They can not get in or out, they can not bring in food, water or supplies. Israel turns away aid agency's & medical supplies. The people of Gaza are kept in squalor and under constant attack by Israeli missles, helocoptors, tanks, artillery and bombs.

Hamas is the people of Gaza who are takeing a proactive approach to their rights and to the suffering of the Palestinian people. They are fighting with the limited means they can scrap together to end the suffering of the Palestinian people and to free the people of Gaza from Israeli tyranny and to grant them their natural born rights.

 

[jsn112]

Terrorism is like flying civilian airliners into buildings full of office workers. You might remember. The poor Palestinians handed out candy and danced in the streets when that happened. I remember them. I will never forget.
Your buddies made their bed with dogs. Let them now sleep with fleas.

Neither will I.

 

[jsn112]

So indiscriminate violence = 4 dead civilians
Discriminate violence = 400+ dead in a matter of days?

For a Christian, you sound like a Muslim or Hamas spokeperson.

 

[NotAGentile18]

As a Jew I could become angry and defensive, but I'm trying very hard to see where you are coming from.

I am a Jewish American. I'm a zionist.
I can't imagine the pain you've had to deal with due to the conflict between our peoples. All I can really say is that the Jewish people will fight to preserve a place where we can live as Jews unrestricted by gentile law or tradition (no disrespect meant). I understand that Israel can often subjugate the Palestinian people. I understand that the hatred between our peoples runs deep, and so your anger and passion are not completely lost on me. The fact is, we aren't going away. Israel acts on survivalist policies in order to stay safe and not be attacked (not to suggest that they aren't attacked without cause). I'm sure in other parts of the world Israeli military operations are referred to as terrorism. Atrocity has been committed on both sides, and the media often presents a one-sided exposure of the conflict.

Neither one of our people's is completely to blame, but we both have our hands tied up in conflict, revenge, cataclysmic religious difference, and the current impossibility of meeting on middle ground.

To the gentiles supporting Israel or condemning the topic creator:
If you are American, or a citizen of a country that is America's ally please understand that the only information we often receive about the conflict in the middle-east is atrocities committed by Palestine peoples against Israelis. Evidently this is not all that goes on in the middle-east. In no way am I condoning the violence committed against my people, but do not be so quick dismiss somebody's anger, passion, and suffering that you or I do not fully understand. There's a reason this topic creator is angry, and it isn't out of any religious hatred, but rather the suffering he has seen his people go through. It could compare with my passion for the Jewish people and for Israel because of the suffering my people go through.

Do not be so quick to dismiss.

This is where the work needs to be done. Not arguing over who did what to whom...that's obviously gotten us nowhere.

 

[Avatar]

As a Jew I could become angry and defensive, but I'm trying very hard to see where you are coming from.

I am a Jewish American. I'm a zionist.
I can't imagine the pain you've had to deal with due to the conflict between our peoples. All I can really say is that the Jewish people will fight to preserve a place where we can live as Jews unrestricted by gentile law or tradition (no disrespect meant). I understand that Israel can often subjugate the Palestinian people. I understand that the hatred between our peoples runs deep, and so your anger and passion are not completely lost on me. The fact is, we aren't going away. Israel acts on survivalist policies in order to stay safe and not be attacked (not to suggest that they aren't attacked without cause). I'm sure in other parts of the world Israeli military operations are referred to as terrorism. Atrocity has been committed on both sides, and the media often presents a one-sided exposure of the conflict.

Neither one of our people's is completely to blame, but we both have our hands tied up in conflict, revenge, cataclysmic religious difference, and the current impossibility of meeting on middle ground.

To the gentiles supporting Israel or condemning the topic creator:
If you are American, or a citizen of a country that is America's ally please understand that the only information we often receive about the conflict in the middle-east is atrocities committed by Palestine peoples against Israelis. Evidently this is not all that goes on in the middle-east. In no way am I condoning the violence committed against my people, but do not be so quick dismiss somebody's anger, passion, and suffering that you or I do not fully understand. There's a reason this topic creator is angry, and it isn't out of any religious hatred, but rather the suffering he has seen his people go through. It could compare with my passion for the Jewish people and for Israel because of the suffering my people go through.

Do not be so quick to dismiss.

This is where the work needs to be done. Not arguing over who did what to whom...that's obviously gotten us nowhere.

Welcome to CF. It appears you will be a valuable addition to our (sometimes fractious) community.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Looks like Hamas is contemplating doing the Israeli-thing of executing a preemptive strike against the state of Israel's nuclear facilities to take out Israel's rogue nuclear WMDs with their brand-new longer range missiles. The irony.

 

[fated]

Israel's current mistake is demanding that Hamas stop firing first, and assuming that a pause for humanitarian aid is unrealistic.

...

There mistake was in the timing of destroying the smuggling tunnels, which should have been a first move followed by patience and additional humanitarian or even trade... assistance. Right now they cut of innocent peoples foods supply. This could have been done in a just way.

Similarly, Hamas could have taken just actions, such as destroying walls and roadblocks...

I haven't seen much particularly just activity here, though.

 

[fated]

Israel would be well served by opening a refugee camp. Possibly in the West Bank, and it needs sufficient "border protection" in ensure that no weapons are present. There is no reason Hamas couldn't do this itself, though the effect would be less significant, and Hamas might need to be careful not to draw attention to the location... Fatah could carry this out as a just war action... Egypt has made a call for European border security, with which Egypt might be able to carry it out with assistance.

One needs to be careful with refugee camp, however, because internal decay occurs when people flee their homes, especially for prolonged periods.

Livni, innocent people have no place to flee, and that is a humanitarian crisis... they are in a concentration camp.

 

[fated]

I know of only one "virgin" "nation" who was prepared for this obvious problem ("remained vigilant"), and even now she exhausts herself, so that Israel can proclaim that there is no crisis. The other support is the charity of the world at large... the UN.

I assume that there are a few others. The Red Cross and the Red Crescent, for instance.

Are there any with weapons who have even taken an iota of responsibility in this?

And they seek from their fill from God...

In response to the OP:
And they will leave empty, just as Hezbollah has been sent away empty. Hezbollah is now a truly defensive force.

 

[S53]

you would be wise to follow the words of this holy man and the position of your church.

Oh yes. The "all-powerful, infallible Pope".

Save it.
She can believe what she wants to believe.

Oh, and you know where Hamas can go?

Oops. Can't say that.

 

[fated]

Iran FM slams world inaction on Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090102/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazairan_090102144438

Iran, most countries agree, out of hand, that when people fire randomly on innocent people they might end up with a bullet in their head from an enforcement agency. As long as Hamas relies on immoral activities to force its agenda your position is extremely weak. If your Ayatollah's even support the random killing of persons, how can we conclude that they are actually holy enough to pay heed unto. The lack of allure to this way of life is obvious, and it is not surprising that your country would have to resort to extreme coercion to keep people within the radical confines of the Iranian Islamic movement. Obviously your children and women are particularly susceptible to other philosophies on sin that don't make exceptions for random violence, and it is no surprise that you have so many adversaries that view your use of means as potentially dangerous. You could incite people to kill or snipe people randomly all over the Earth, including Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. Indeed, Hamas went and killed Fatah member just a short while back.

And good job threatening the life and work of a Nobel Laureate, that's just great. What's next, get a lynch mob together and nail her to a tree? The whole world sees just how "sublime" your legal system is.

 

[S53]

Iran also just warned Israel against a ground assault. Israel won't listen. They're sick of this. Gaza has been hot spot for years now. First the 'tactical withdrawal' of all Israeli Forces. Now Hamas has fortified themselves in Gaza. And hiding behind innocent civilians.

 

[fated]

Iran also just warned Israel against a ground assault. Israel won't listen. They're sick of this. Gaza has been hot spot for years now. First the 'tactical withdrawal' of all Israeli Forces. Now Hamas has fortified themselves in Gaza. And hiding behind innocent civilians.

Israel is causing many deaths and maiming of innocent civilians, even if it is at an astonishingly low rate (20-25% of deaths).

It is unclear how much of this division occurs because of Islamic fascism (dhimmi law for instance), how much is because of Israeli actions (apartheid, depopulation of Arabs).

But the solution has both obstacles. One, the necessary recompense for now generations old depopulation, an end to apartheid on the one side. And a permanent repudiation of dhimmi law on the other.

And, like I said, Hamas needs to understand that its actions are evil, needs to understand that it may have valid targets, and does not need to resort to brinking to see the consistent progress of human rights in the region.

I, and the Vatican, and many other countries, have accepted that a two state solution is a valid step in this process. Hamas refuses to stop the brinking and work in a collaborative way with Israel and the international community to give it and its people their rightful territory.


Nonetheless, I don't even see this as an unforgivable offense, they simply need to change their ways. If Hamas was insistent upon removing unjust barriers, I doubt that there would be any or much national support for Israel when it accidentally kills civilians defending its unjust barriers, however, Hamas uses a system of terror and a gravely evil philosophy of random death and destruction (which could have very severe ramifications for the area) to get what it wants as soon as possible.

So, while I certainly don't support Israel in the way that many do, I understand that Palestine has become a lawless place, and that some sort of law enforcement activities are necessary.

Hamas also bears the grave guilt of ingratitude and waste of international and Israeli support during these time if intermediate negotiations.

It is truly outrageous that they would waste amounts of aid that could have turned many poor countries fate around completely, all in the name of bringing themselves to the verge of death, and leading to the obvious oppression of their poor, and invariably pushing those on the verge of the grave into it.

There is a grave theological dispute here, as well. The version of nationalistic terrorist theology has been refuted by most, but Iran still teaches, or possibly just passively allows it, and this yields their displays of power, powered, then, by sin, that is, by the "natural law" or Satan himself. And the US is surprised when democratic elections are not always free across the world. The US, for its part, spreads it own type of discord. With, on the one hand, too much belief in the wasteful use of funds in warfare and the force of arm, or, on the other, the belief that by spreading prosperity in other sinful ways (condoms (a lie and addictive philosophy of sex) and abortions) they'll avoid resentment. The US consistently gets this wrong. It was slightly more successful in some ways, in Iraq, but few will doubt that the money could have changed the whole world, excepting those dark spots who refuse to recognize the guiding light... Thus, making the Light all the more alluring...

 

[fated]

Iraqi preachers slam Israel's attacks on Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090102/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazairaq

Support for Hamas is notably lacking. Iraq is not particularly fond of Iranian militant meddling in its own affairs, so that isn't really surprising.

 

[fated]

UN envoy calls for comprehensive Gaza truce

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090102/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaunenvoy_090102185455


Well put.

Like I said elsewhere, the situation makes imperialism look good. UN intervention isn't nearly as extreme as imperialism.

I am afraid sometimes, that while the UN listens intently to the demands of the Palestinians, I fear that people, the general populace, don't listen to the concerns from the West and Israel, concerning legitimate concerns.